Curse

theVariable · Aug 06, 2005, 09:22 AM // 09:22

The only ones defending skyrocketing prices are the ones who profit from them, of course. Then, in their defense, they hide behind their favorite buzz term (which they hardly understand). I'm sure you've heard it... Supply and Demand, anyone? This game uses that basic principle very loosely. There are two asynchronous markets. The NPC market and the Player to Player market. The problem is, players govern the NPC market by withholding items, which in turn governs the prices of the Player to Player market. Which isn't true supply and demand. It's exploitation that turns into inflation and price gouging. Once you drive prices up, you sell only to players so the NPC price never goes down and people just assume the demand is still high.

How can this be fixed? Simple. ANet needs to make the NPCs buy at higher prices (short term fix). 50-75% of the price it sells for would be a huge incentive to sell to NPCs and not spam trade chat. For long term, we need an Auction House (which ANet better be working on). The FFXI Auction House would tear this inflation to threads. Just because, if you wanted to ever sell anything in a timely manner, you'd have to sell at lower and lower prices. Because lower listings sell first. As long as supply is high, prices naturally go down. It's an awesome system and it takes the power away from the wealthy. If it was your only option to sell anything, it would be the truest display of supply and demand this game has ever seen.

Capitalism doesn't belong in GW. It wasn't designed for that. And when we're all on equal footing, I'm gonna love to watch you wealthy cry.

coleslawdressin · Aug 06, 2005, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by theVariable

I'm gonna love to watch you wealthy cry.

Who's crying?

I don't think the trader buying at less than about 75% will make people sell to him consistently.

PieXags · Aug 06, 2005, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by coleslawdressin

Who's crying?

I don't think the trader buying at less than about 75% will make people sell to him consistently.

I'd sell off any and all runes, materials, and dyes to the traders if I could get 50% the selling price.

the dragon king · Aug 06, 2005, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

I'd sell off any and all runes, materials, and dyes to the traders if I could get 50% the selling price.

me too much easier much faster much better for everyone

Anomaly · Aug 06, 2005, 10:22 AM // 10:22

I agree, I hate selling.

I'd much rather see an auction house though. It's a shame they didn't think about that before release.

theVariable · Aug 06, 2005, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by coleslawdressin

Who's crying?

Perhaps, you should read my statement again? It was obviously said in future tense...

Quote:

Originally Posted by coleslawdressin

I don't think the trader buying at less than about 75% will make people sell to him consistently.

I sure as hell would, but I'm sure there would be a few hold outs. Good for them. I hope they enjoy trade spamming. It's definately something I look forward to...

Dax · Aug 06, 2005, 02:03 PM // 14:03

The one factor you are leaving out is dependancy. Yes there is a supply and demand factor, but there is only a limited market of items that sell.

If you use FFXI as an example where good seller like Meat Mithkabobs had several ingredient thatother player could buy and sell. I didn't cook, but I made good money farming the meat from Taber Beaks(I can't name the type of meat for some reason the filter doesn't like it), and maybe someone else made good money growing Khazam Peppers both I think are ingredients in Mithkabobs. (it's been a while). Lower level player can farm silver pieces and crystals, which are in turn bought by higher level crafters, ect. Before things got out of hand FFXI had a pretty good AH system I though, and yes you could have fun playing the market.

In Wow For example you might not get any Epic drops right away but you can mine metals which crafters at a higher level depend on....and make a very good living.

EQ2 used to have dependancy but not so much anymore which ruined it, IMO...and the fact you got to sit in your room to post things on thier broker listings.

SOT · Aug 06, 2005, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by theVariable

The only ones defending skyrocketing prices are the ones who profit from them, of course

Basically, what I quoted from you up there makes absolutely no sense to me, and no, not because I am stupid. I have logged MANY hours on the game, through various characters, and not once has any of the economical pitfalls,inflations,or any other such woe is me bullshit happened to me, my guild, or anyone on my friends list. It simply exists in the head of like 456 people or something. And you will not shut up about it.

It all comes down to personal choices. Do you spend that 90k you have saved to get that item that 'captain walmart' seems to have 9 of? Do you pay that egotistical worm in Beacons to run you to the forge? Yes? No?

People love to blame the economy in real life rather than take a long hard look at their own choices in spending, saving, and whatnot. The same is true here. Yes, there have been many things Anet has had to step in and mediate over, fix, and sometimes outright REMOVE, but this whole economy issue, and the 90 identical threads that feed the mass hysteria, are based on personal deception and outright ignorance of the choices we as gamers make in a game world.

Stop blaming the system, and start contributing to your own in-game success. Because, sorry to say, people like me are saving their gold, and we have no reason to bitch, other than hearing YET AGAIN gets sooooo tedious

Red Sonya · Aug 06, 2005, 03:17 PM // 15:17

When I can make 10K a day selling to merchants, I'm not about to complain about the economy and that's what I can make a day easily. I'm really getting tired of the whinners complaining about Joe Blow who makes more than them because he "knows where to farm" and they don't. That's pretty tough, we took the time to find out, to analyze to calculate and compare to find the best spots for our income. Hell others make more than me per hour and I don't complain. 10K a day is good income and I see no reason to change the npc market just to apease the handful, very few, the vocal minority cause they can't have what Joe Blow got in one day.

This is another sad example of "everyone wants to be a JEDI" from SWG's and the DEVS gave into them and ruined the game. Everyone doesn't need to have 15k armor at the same time, everyone doesn't need the best weapon of their class at the same time, everyone must "work & earn" what they get over a given time frame for the amount of time they can play. That's the way the game works and should work and I would hope continues to work. If you want the best stuff then you have to "work for it" and "pay the price", just like the ones of us who already have did. Get a clue, this game and all other mmorpgs/mmo's weren't meant to be 10 year old Tommys silver platter wahh wahhh temper tantrum I want it NOW wahh wahh.

SOT · Aug 06, 2005, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

When I can make 10K a day selling to merchants, I'm not about to complain about the economy and that's what I can make a day easily. I'm really getting tired of the whinners complaining about Joe Blow who makes more than them because he "knows where to farm" and they don't. That's pretty tough, we took the time to find out, to analyze to calculate and compare to find the best spots for our income. Hell others make more than me per hour and I don't complain. 10K a day is good income and I see no reason to change the npc market just to apease the handful, very few, the vocal minority cause they can't have what Joe Blow got in one day.

This is another sad example of "everyone wants to be a JEDI" from SWG's and the DEVS gave into them and ruined the game. Everyone doesn't need to have 15k armor at the same time, everyone doesn't need the best weapon of their class at the same time, everyone must "work & earn" what they get over a given time frame for the amount of time they can play. That's the way the game works and should work and I would hope continues to work. If you want the best stuff then you have to "work for it" and "pay the price", just like the ones of us who already have did. Get a clue, this game and all other mmorpgs/mmo's weren't meant to be 10 year old Tommys silver platter wahh wahhh temper tantrum I want it NOW wahh wahh.

(light-hearted sarcasm) - But now you are being a flamer because you disagree with the hive! LOL

Never underestimate the power of stupid, self deluded people, in large groups.

Shagsbeard · Aug 06, 2005, 03:41 PM // 15:41

All too often I see requests for an auction house. Please explain what you want here, because the auction house from final fantasy is impossible given the instanced nature of guildwars. Explain in depth to the designers how they could do something that would work for you. Crying "Auction house! Auction house!" isn't going to help. Realize that there are thousands of people playing this game at any given time, but only 50 or so can be in the same instance. You can't have your items appear in more than one instance or else they would be easily duplicated. You might as well ask for an auction house in Diablo II. It's just not possible here due to the very nature of the game.

It would be nice, but until someone tells them how to do it, it's not going to happen.

The problem with the GW economy is that there is a huge imbalance between the income rates between different play styles. People who run the hall of heros are gaining huge ammounts of gold through their collections of sigils. So they can afford pretty much what ever price the game comes up with for items. Items they want become 100 plat items. Items they don't want drop to zero. It's basic fixed point theory. The prices will settle down to a fixed point... in this case 0 or infinity (the machine version... not the calculus one). The myth that there will be some reasonable equilibrium reached is preposterous, and mathematically unsound. If the desired goal of the game is to have some stable equilibrium point... set the prices at that point and let us play. We didn't buy this game to play armchair economists.

SOT · Aug 06, 2005, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shagsbeard

The problem with the GW economy is that there is a huge imbalance between the income rates between different play styles. People who run the hall of heros are gaining huge ammounts of gold through their collections of sigils. So they can afford pretty much what ever price the game comes up with for items. Items they want become 100 plat items. Items they don't want drop to zero. It's basic fixed point theory. The prices will settle down to a fixed point... in this case 0 or infinity (the machine version... not the calculus one). The myth that there will be some reasonable equilibrium reached is preposterous, and mathematically unsound. If the desired goal of the game is to have some stable equilibrium point... set the prices at that point and let us play. We didn't buy this game to play armchair economists.

If that is the gods-touched truth, why are all these whining nincompoops NOT RUNNING HOH??????

Gee wally, I guess all these hours of playtime spent farming orr emblems instead of exploring and attaining new abilities so that HOH can actually BE useful to 85% of the population of the game is all for nothing!

No, they want a handout and are pissed off because in their minds, someone has one and they do not. Run the HOH. Otherwise, that part of your post has no sensible solution.

asdar · Aug 06, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Mr. Economist, the Variable knows all.

There's nothing wrong with the economy. Things are selling people are buying.

If you're even thinking of quitting because of the economy you're not very bright because the economy almost has nothing to do with GW.

Items that matter are easy to come by and anyone that can ascend while doing the skill quests should be able to buy the best stat armor in the game and easily obtain the best stat weapon in the game. They've stripped the important items in this game completely away from the economy.

That leaves luxury items and nobody has to buy them at all so you're just whining about your black dye and ectoplasm for fissure armor. You can get those items by hunting you know. When enough people say enough is enough the price will drop.

That's what the market will bear.

Warskull · Aug 06, 2005, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Variable is dead on here, the inflation is heavily due to the way the NPC traders are set-up. They are broken. I can sell a rune to them for less than half of what they sell it to other players. I have no reason to sell my rune to the NPC trader. Thus they never get items sold to them and the prices skyrocket. However since even with 100k price tag on a rune you get crap when you sell that rune to the trader no one ever does. If you got a decent take (75% is perfect) people would return to selling stuff to traders. However those who wanted to sell it themselves could still make a profit.

The second factor is nothing grounds prices in the player trading. Prices are largely governed by idiocy. Put godly in front of an item and idiots think it is worth 200k+, then other people see that and start trying to sell their items for fantasy prices. A good example of this is a guy who tried to sell me unidentified gold armors for 7k each. I flat out told him he was a moron and they were barely worth 500 each (I could buy an UID superior rune for 5k-15k.) Pretty soon you have all the newbies running around asking for insane prices for items that aren't worth it. Some form of a market place would help put things in perspective.

derrtyboy69 · Aug 06, 2005, 04:14 PM // 16:14

the merchant buys at fine prices, you just have to WAIT. the common price of iron ingots person to person is 10 a pop, but i sell 10 for 115 at the right time. u people have no patients

Phades · Aug 06, 2005, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

The one factor you are leaving out is dependancy. Yes there is a supply and demand factor, but there is only a limited market of items that sell.

If you use FFXI as an example where good seller like Meat Mithkabobs had several ingredient thatother player could buy and sell. I didn't cook, but I made good money farming the meat from Taber Beaks(I can't name the type of meat for some reason the filter doesn't like it), and maybe someone else made good money growing Khazam Peppers both I think are ingredients in Mithkabobs. (it's been a while). Lower level player can farm silver pieces and crystals, which are in turn bought by higher level crafters, ect. Before things got out of hand FFXI had a pretty good AH system I though, and yes you could have fun playing the market.

Changes in the economy in that game had more to do with who controlled what areas, as it dictated which npcs were available to sell in different areas. Crystals were the easy part, the real materials were the things that were in flux.

FFXI had a working economny as there was a flow of gil into the game and a flow of gil out of the game in addition to between player entities. GW does not have a flow of cash out of the game for post ascention characters. These characters will only continue to amass wealth with no real reason to spend at a npc vender in quanitty to offset their gain. This helps cause inflation to a degree. Then there is also the popular trends that cause swings in it, like rune prices. When people comment on trader buys, it is more commonly in reference towards things like runes, due to the out of whack buy system the npcs have, but can be related to any other item that is purchased from a vender.

Teh Azman · Aug 06, 2005, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Let me guess. P/O'd monk #(is it 6 or 7?) crying about his superior runes. The economy is fine, you need to piss on the farmer builds that are causing the instability.

Divinitys Creature · Aug 06, 2005, 05:23 PM // 17:23

You can't buy skill points - wealth is pointless in this game. Except maybe for people who are into fissure armor and hoarding a lot of black dyes - nothing wrong with that of course. Just you can't buy functional things like skills so wealth is pointless to PvP centric players like myself.

October Jade · Aug 06, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Long post ahead...a bit technical, too, but that's what economists are known for, right?

I assert that the trade "problems" within the game are mostly, if not entirely, demand-side issues. The primary reason behind this thinking is that the supply curve for high-end items, or any items for that matter, is perfectly inelastic for all practical purposes of analysis. To think otherwise necessitates the assumption that players are able to control the items which they "produce" through gameplay, farming, etc. This capability of predicting item drops does indeed exist on a very limited scale (e.g. running FoW for chaos axes), but in terms of the entire economy, its influence is negligible. The matter at hand is, after all, a rather simple one: the only alternative to having these items is not having them. The supply of items is proportional to the number of players that are online actively playing the game in search of them, and the single limiting factor is the number of real hours one can spend in-game.

It seems that some players are quick to assign blame for the imbalance of wealth upon the NPC traders. My suggestion: try to envision these characters as a GW eBay--a way to sift through information efficiently, spending fewer resources than if you blindly spam in town in hopes that someone else has the item you need. Believe it or not, the middle man does have a purpose, both in fictitious and real markets. Having said that, I will now commence my small rant regarding these stewards of capitalism. The most flagrant error in the way the traders operate is that they fail to recognize the existence of competition. As everyone knows, the player-to-player market arose because other individuals were willing to pay more for items than were the traders. I wholly believe, however, that the current arbitrage-riddled system could be ameliorated if trader prices were allowed to adjust gradually over time to reflect the stagnancy in player-trader transactions.

Example: Suppose that black dye is selling for 8000gp at the trader and 7000gp from other players. Additionally, assume that the trader's offering price for the dye is only 2500gp. Presumably, anyone seeking to buy or sell black dye is going to avoid the trader. Thus, with no increase or decrease in quantity of inventory, the trader's buy/sell prices will not change. However, if the prices were adjusted with respect to time, not just quantity, players would encounter a renewed usefulness in traders. My personal suggestion is that traders' buy/sell prices begin to converge at a rate of 5% per hour of inactivity, eventually reaching an equilibrium and eliminating the need for player-to-player trade. One must note, however, that the traders' buy/sell prices will never be equal to each other, but will stabilize at a difference small enough such that it's not worth the time to seek out other offers. This is how true-life markets function, and I really do not see why GW has to be any different.

I welcome commentary and criticism, opposing viewpoints, or any other reflections upon the matters discussed here. Hopefully, intelligent discourse can change the attitudes of at least a few members of this forum.

Cartoonhero · Aug 06, 2005, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Azman

Let me guess. P/O'd monk #(is it 6 or 7?) crying about his superior runes. The economy is fine, you need to piss on the farmer builds that are causing the instability.

it really is those farmer builds causing all this. you need 5 sup runes to make one build, and these farmers are generally monks, so thats why the monk sup runes are so inflated. this sudden inflation only proves to show that this economy does indeed work on supply and demand. everyone that wants make a farm build wants sup monk runes...and now, their prices have skyrocketed. and thats all there is to it.