Curse

stumpy · Aug 15, 2005, 05:32 PM // 17:32

sorry for my spurt there but in my opinion your argumenting a sole class and using narrow vision in 'your perception' of the economy. The solo 55/105 build is not the only class that can solo and farm there materials/resources. There have been powerful W/Mo and Elementalist builds that do this too. But this perception imo is geared against solo farming ... why then is there no argument against the solo rusher that is a Warrior/Mo ... heck I think my Ele should be in the running business ... but his windows of opportunity are severely limited. <<< A future post for you perhaps?

I dont see the need to be upset with the fact that I farm. I cannot afford the 150K to buy that sword ... I am farming for my pve characters to have the weapons available to them. I want to build them to a place when I can retire them until new content comes out. I do have high standards ... but my farming does not directly effect your economy except in a beneficial way. Have you ever seen my guild giving away free gold items for trivia on Fridays? Yep ... all items we don't want we give for free ... why ... I'm not gonna use them ... someone else may. This economy will not level its self out if we decide to through out farming ... it will just end up losing players, sad but true ... with over 850 hours clocked and all betas ... the only way I have saved the face of this game with some guildies is teaching them to farm ... or through useless things like our trivia games day ... if not for that we have nothing left to do ... we pvp every night for a couple hours now cause pve has been over for a long time for all our characters ... farming gives me a break from pvp.

pchliu · Aug 15, 2005, 05:43 PM // 17:43

The problem is not the build itself. I can solo with my E/Mo or W/Mo builds before, just not to such an extend.

The reason people solo is because of all the nerf, and is very hard to be successful with random groups. For me, I solo (or with henches) because I have a new born baby and have to afk a lot.

I played a monk yestersday and just wasted the whole morning with 3 random teams of 8 at mineral spring without capturing a single skill. I then go with henches and can clear the map without any problem.

I also want to say that most of my guild members stop playing GW because of all the nerf. I finished my 2nd and 3rd characters with less than 10k each with only 1 gold drop without unlocking anything. If I can get decent drops and gold, I will gladly go with henches (still, I will rather not play with random groups).

I think I will stop playing GW as well if ANet don't increase the drops or they nerf any solo builds. It is just a waste of time exploring but not getting anything unlock.

newfangle · Aug 15, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Make it so you need an 8 person party to go into the UW. It would anger a lot of people, but then getting GW fanatics angry makes me happy.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 15, 2005, 06:02 PM // 18:02

I don't see what you guys are debating. It's really very simple: one single class can solo areas which are supposed to be extremely hard, basically areas to tide us over until the next expansion, because of one single skill.
No other class can do it.

Not only that, but the skill is counter intuitive, so the less health you have, the easier it is to stay alive.

The effect is that every powergamer in the game is either already running this one build, or grinding to get the runes (and low-level POS item) needed to drop health low enough. Diversity is going right down the drain.

To me this clearly means one thing: the skill is unbalanced.

Whether this is a problem or not largely depends on whether one is using the build or not - those who do, do not feel it's a problem, but I think most other PvE'ers would disagree. I for one certainly don't want armies of 55/105 monks everywhere, even if they don't directly compete with me. I want diversity. I want to be able to find balanced teams, for teamplay.

The solution is equally clear: balance that one skill. That's all. There's many ways of doing that, several have been suggested here.

Algren Cole · Aug 15, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

So true. They were even before the 105 build, but now it's the only class in the game.

ANet will have to do something about the 55/105 build, and my guess is that they will.
I also can already hear the tremendous wail of righteous indignation which will shake guildwarsguru to its foundations when they do.

No previous nerf has been even close to the storm a nerf of the tanking ability of monks in general, and the almighty 105 build in particular, will spawn.

the 55/105 monk build is a build that utilizes perfectly balanced skills in the perfect manner. none of the skills themselves are overpowered and nerfing any of them would make the monks role almost useless in the game. I have a 55 Smiter build.....and yes I use it to farm. I would, however, never think of using that build in a mission/quest because it's a useless build. Any enchant remove skill and my monk is pwned in 2.1 seconds. Die twice and you insta die on rez....it's not a usefull build for anything other than farming and nerfing the skills that make it possible(with the exception of Bonetti's I don't use it as I am a Mo/Me...but Bonetti's is overpowered) would create a useless class....Monks wouldn't be able to heal effectively.

Sagius Truthbarron · Aug 15, 2005, 06:33 PM // 18:33

This is just stupid. It's like all the people who are saying that whoever bought the monk runes they needed at a sane price instead of paying 250k should be banned.

It's rediculous. The 55/105 health build only hurts when they join your random pug and then decide to get you all killed and then solo.

It does not hurt the economy AT ALL it just brings down the price of ecto. With all the people buying it across all servers (and with the lack of drops to idiotic smite groups) the ecto should be 20k+ now. Becuase of the 55/105 heal build, ecto is at an almost reasonable 10k.

Do you want ecto and black dye to be 20-35k? Oh, you do, huh? Low prices hurts your e-bay account, I immagine.

ManadartheHealer · Aug 15, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

This is just stupid....

Agreed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

The 55/105 health build only hurts when they join your random pug and then decide to get you all killed and then solo.

Agreed again

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

It does not hurt the economy AT ALL it just brings down the price of ecto.

You win a cookie for understanding basic economic principles

Yamat · Aug 15, 2005, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vwoss

Why do we want UW soloing to stop anyway? They're not ruining your experience, nor are they driving up the prices of ectoplasms. If anything they're keeping the prices of ectoplasm down by constantly pouring them into the economy.

Quoted for absolute truth.

My god people are dumb. Ecto's would be 50k each if it wasn't for monks farming UW...

Dragou Du Porzan · Aug 15, 2005, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

I don't consider them cheaters, actually. This isn't the sort of exploitation like with the 50k ascension fiasco, it is natural use of available tools. I know the term 'exploit' carries a lot of negative weight that is likely what's ticking you off about my posts, but I was using it in the secondary meaning of the word, being "to use or develop something in order to gain a benefit". What people further read in it is not really my concern.

I have nothing against the people using the 55/105 builds, I have something against that which makes the build work: the current implementation of Protective Bond/Protective Spirit. It makes one build significantly better than all others for PvE, which narrows a lot of possible experimentation and versatility in an already braindead (static and flat AI) PvE environment. The masses who are all using it to 'milk it while it lasts' are what make it a problem for other players: they use it to get ahead of other players as far as income and commodity retrieval (such as ectoplasm) is concerned.

Fair enough. I agree that there are plenty of people using the 55/105 smiter solely for quick financial gain. Personally I don't have a problem with this (though it's not my reason for soloing). Still, I can understand why someone else - especially someone who doesn't care to play a farming-friendly build - would. I don't know if I agree that Prot Bond/Spirit make monks significantly better than other classes or even other monk builds in PvE. As a general rule, monk builds based around Prot Bond are limited in the scope of what they can do. It's certainly no Swiss Army Knife that can dominate all (or even most) aspects of play. Making headway through many regions/missions can be hard to impossible for a solo Prot Bond monk.

I'm sure you're mainly thinking about farming when you speak of the solo monk's PvE advantage, and it's true that a 55/105 smiter who picks his spots wisely should be quite a capable farmer. I don't know if it's the hands-down best farming build - there seem to be some very capable warrior and elementalist-primary farmers out there - but 55/105 smiters monks definitely have an advantage in this area. That seems to be the real question: does the fact that a few classes have an advantage in the area of farming hurt the game as a whole? It really shouldn't; gold and items in GW mean very little comparatively to other games. However, old habits die hard and I'm sure some people might steer away from less farming-friendly classes like mesmer and necro to get their piece of the pie, so to speak.

That would be my main concern, much more so than solo monks getting rich quick (which in GW really doesn't affect much in the larger scheme of things). But rather than nerf solo builds to limit farming options (and in the process limit options for people who, like me, just like to adventure solo), what I'd prefer to see is an expansion of the capabilities of mesmers and necros such that viable solo builds can be created with those classes in mind. Especially if these new builds required very different strategies to implement than current farming builds do. If every class had its own unique yet equally workable option for solo farming I am sure complaints over farming as a whole would drop drastically. Of course this is much easier to suggest than to implement, but here's hoping that a solution can be found that addresses your "unfair advantage" concerns while allowing me to continue questing on my own.

ManadartheHealer · Aug 15, 2005, 08:11 PM // 20:11

I transformed my Mo/W into a <very> bastardized version of the standard 55/105 monk build. I also have multiple armor sets so, if desired, I can function as a real monk.

Basically the only real reason I have this farming character is for 15k armor (and possibly a little dye for it) for my 3 PvE characters

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragou Du Porzan

...what I'd prefer to see is an expansion of the capabilities of mesmers and necros such that viable solo builds can be created with those classes in mind. Especially if these new builds required very different strategies to implement than current farming builds do. If every class had its own unique yet equally workable option for solo farming I am sure complaints over farming as a whole would drop drastically...

/signed

Dazzler · Aug 15, 2005, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

none of the skills themselves are overpowered and nerfing any of them would make the monks role almost useless in the game.....it's not a usefull build for anything other than farming and nerfing the skills that make it possible(with the exception of Bonetti's I don't use it as I am a Mo/Me...but Bonetti's is overpowered) would create a useless class....Monks wouldn't be able to heal effectively.

I'm sorry but that is a little over the top. Monks will always be extremely useful in the game even if Prot Bond and Prot Spirit are nerfed. If these skills were changed so they were based upon your natural unmodified maximum health, then they would be useless for this particular farming build but the impact on regular team-based play with monks would be nil. Most parties have people running around with health very close to their normal maximum--people run one or two superior runes along with a vigor rune and possibly some health bonuses on their weapons and shields. The net effect is the current Prot Bond and Spirit would provide about the same protection as a "nerfed" version. None of the other skills even need to be touched, so all the other 73 monk skills that most people equip instead of these 2 for normal teamplay would be unaffected.

And I really like how you say nerfing any of these skills would be bad, but it is okay to nerf the overpowered Bonetti's, which you happen to not use anyway. How is Bonetti's overpowered? There's lots of Warrior skills that would bypass Bonetti's defense.

Algren Cole · Aug 15, 2005, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dazzler

I'm sorry but that is a little over the top. Monks will always be extremely useful in the game even if Prot Bond and Prot Spirit are nerfed. If these skills were changed so they were based upon your natural unmodified maximum health, then they would be useless for this particular farming build but the impact on regular team-based play with monks would be nil. Most parties have people running around with health very close to their normal maximum--people run one or two superior runes along with a vigor rune and possibly some health bonuses on their weapons and shields. The net effect is the current Prot Bond and Spirit would provide about the same protection as a "nerfed" version. None of the other skills even need to be touched, so all the other 73 monk skills that most people equip instead of these 2 for normal teamplay would be unaffected.

And I really like how you say nerfing any of these skills would be bad, but it is okay to nerf the overpowered Bonetti's, which you happen to not use anyway. How is Bonetti's overpowered? There's lots of Warrior skills that would bypass Bonetti's defense.

if you're using the 55/105 monk build in arenas you are an idiot and should stop playing guild wars....so it's obvious we are talking about PvE and not PvP. Bonetti's gives you 75% chance to evade attacks AND 5 energy for every attack you evade. It's essentially a recharge of full energy every time you use it. That's a bit overpowered....but when it comes to PvE it doesn't matter so I could care less if they "nerf" it or not.

also. If prot bond were nerfed the way you want it to be nerfed players with DP would still be protected against their normal max HP. Add a 30% death penalty and protection bond will only stop attacks from doing more than 50(give or take a couple) damage to a character that only has 365 HP due to penalties.

i.e. the skill would be useless as it would now be protecting you against one attack doing more than 15% as opposed to the normal 5% it should be doing.

Dazzler · Aug 15, 2005, 09:05 PM // 21:05

My comment about Bonetti's is that any perceived PVE imbalance can be solved by giving more melee mobs some of the warrior skills that counter it. At any rate, it *does* do alot, but it requires you to survive long enough to get 8 adrenaline, which is no easy feat.

WRT to the problem with the DP, well DP really rocks your world no matter what skills you are using. That is what the P in DP is all about. Why should these 2 skills out of however many skills there are in the game, actually be IMPROVED by DP, while most other skills are not? Well, I guess you could say any healing skill is improved by DP, because the less HP you have, the less healing spells you need to cast to fully heal. If they were nerfed in this fashion, these skills would be exactly as effective with or without DP: they would cap damage at ~25 (prot bond) or ~50 (prot spirit). Just like the 2 spells Mark of Protection or Healing Hands are not affected by DP. So I am not seeing the problem. Prot Spirit in this case is really only useful as an anti-spike skill, while prot bond would be useful against any sort of heavy-damage enemy.

Algren Cole · Aug 15, 2005, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dazzler

My comment about Bonetti's is that any perceived PVE imbalance can be solved by giving more melee mobs some of the warrior skills that counter it. At any rate, it *does* do alot, but it requires you to survive long enough to get 8 adrenaline, which is no easy feat.

WRT to the problem with the DP, well DP really rocks your world no matter what skills you are using. That is what the P in DP is all about. Why should these 2 skills out of however many skills there are in the game, actually be IMPROVED by DP, while most other skills are not? Well, I guess you could say any healing skill is improved by DP, because the less HP you have, the less healing spells you need to cast to fully heal. If they were nerfed in this fashion, these skills would be exactly as effective with or without DP: they would cap damage at ~25 (prot bond) or ~50 (prot spirit). Just like the 2 spells Mark of Protection or Healing Hands are not affected by DP. So I am not seeing the problem. Prot Spirit in this case is really only useful as an anti-spike skill, while prot bond would be useful against any sort of heavy-damage enemy.

you're forgetting that protective bond is only 1 of the 8 skills needed for invinci-monk....take it away and we'll just come up with another skill to use instead of it. We'll go Mo/R and use Melandru's against condition casters to keep our HP Regen up at 12 constantly. The invinci-monk build works because monks can heal...not because protective bond takes the damage away. My 535HP Build doesn't even use Protective Bond and I can still farm the desert with it. To Nerf the Invinci-Monk you'd need to nerf Healing Breeze, orison, balthazars aura, mending, any number of skills the invinci-monk uses. Which would make healing near impossible for the monk to do.

Silmor · Aug 15, 2005, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Wow, 5% of max hitpoints yields 50 damage maximum? That implies 1000 max health, in which case you shouldn't be using Protective Bond anyway, or your math is a little off. The skill is there to take the bite out of nuke spikes, reducing them to around 25 damage for Bond and 50 damage for Spirit, and as such aren't useless one bit.

In PvP you shouldn't be worrying about death penalty - if you need to rely on either spell to keep someone with 30% DP alive, you've already messed up somewhere along the line.

Algren Cole · Aug 15, 2005, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

Wow, 5% of max hitpoints yields 50 damage maximum? That implies 1000 max health, in which case you shouldn't be using Protective Bond anyway, or your math is a little off. The skill is there to take the bite out of nuke spikes, reducing them to around 25 damage for Bond and 50 damage for Spirit, and as such aren't useless one bit.

In PvP you shouldn't be worrying about death penalty - if you need to rely on either spell to keep someone with 30% DP alive, you've already messed up somewhere along the line.

you are correct. cut my numbers in half I figured 10% not 5%....either way there is a huge difference between 5% of 350(30% DP) and 5% of 500

Dazzler · Aug 15, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

you're forgetting that protective bond is only 1 of the 8 skills needed for invinci-monk....take it away and we'll just come up with another skill to use instead of it. We'll go Mo/R and use Melandru's against condition casters to keep our HP Regen up at 12 constantly. The invinci-monk build works because monks can heal...not because protective bond takes the damage away. My 535HP Build doesn't even use Protective Bond and I can still farm the desert with it. To Nerf the Invinci-Monk you'd need to nerf Healing Breeze, orison, balthazars aura, mending, any number of skills the invinci-monk uses. Which would make healing near impossible for the monk to do.

I'm not forgetting. All (or at least most) classes have multiple builds that are effective at farming. I farm with a 437HP E/Me.

The invinci-monk build works, not because monks can heal, but because Prot Bond drops the incoming dps down to a rate that is less than the monk's healing rate. If this were not true, then how come people are not farming UW with an invinci-monk prot bond build with 400 HP? Because even with Prot Bond limiting damage to only 20 per hit, they still cannot heal the damage they are receiving fast enough to survive.

Protective Bond is the keystone of the invinci-monk build. Take it away, and the invinci-monk build dies, because with all of the spells you listed, it is not possible for the monk to heal the damage from 3+ Aatxes as fast as it is coming in--and if the monk does find a way to do that, they will not have any skill-slots left to do any damage or even the time to cast the offensive spells. The monk still has all the other viable solo-farming builds, but the efficiency with which they can solo UW will be drastically reduced, if not stopped completely.

Weezer_Blue · Aug 15, 2005, 09:47 PM // 21:47

First of all, it's a really bad idea to ever balance anything around PvE that may, and probably will, severely affect competition.

Secondly, I think he did you a favor. Would you have progressed without him?

Third, why must people get all pissed off whenever anyone plays the way they find enjoyable?

And finally, what is appealing about invincibility? Comon... Is that worth answering!?

Algren Cole · Aug 15, 2005, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dazzler

I'm not forgetting. All (or at least most) classes have multiple builds that are effective at farming. I farm with a 437HP E/Me.

The invinci-monk build works, not because monks can heal, but because Prot Bond drops the incoming dps down to a rate that is less than the monk's healing rate. If this were not true, then how come people are not farming UW with an invinci-monk prot bond build with 400 HP? Because even with Prot Bond limiting damage to only 20 per hit, they still cannot heal the damage they are receiving fast enough to survive.

Protective Bond is the keystone of the invinci-monk build. Take it away, and the invinci-monk build dies, because with all of the spells you listed, it is not possible for the monk to heal the damage from 3+ Aatxes as fast as it is coming in--and if the monk does find a way to do that, they will not have any skill-slots left to do any damage or even the time to cast the offensive spells. The monk still has all the other viable solo-farming builds, but the efficiency with which they can solo UW will be drastically reduced, if not stopped completely.

how does this affect you? what do YOU lose by someone else using an invinci-monk build?

generik · Aug 15, 2005, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dazzler

Protective Bond is the keystone of the invinci-monk build. Take it away, and the invinci-monk build dies, because with all of the spells you listed, it is not possible for the monk to heal the damage from 3+ Aatxes as fast as it is coming in--and if the monk does find a way to do that, they will not have any skill-slots left to do any damage or even the time to cast the offensive spells. The monk still has all the other viable solo-farming builds, but the efficiency with which they can solo UW will be drastically reduced, if not stopped completely.

I doubt it will die, protective spirit would work just as well.. Sure, it is 10% instead of 5, but unlike bond, you don't lose energy when you get a hit, which means you can afford to cast more heals on yourself with all that mana coming in through essense bond.