Curse

Sayshina · Aug 19, 2005, 04:37 AM // 04:37

There are NOT millions of people playing this game. At times it doesn't even seem like there are thousands.

The whole "people aren't sharing their builds because ..." arguement doesn't work or matter. Do you think Magic players didn't try to keep their secrets? If the player base was strong enough, if there were enough people playing PvP, if there were enough dedicated deck/team builders around, there would be no way to keep any secrets.

It's hard to figure out a build just by playing against it, but the REAL problem is that PvP is SO bad that when you do finaly bump into a decent team you don't WANT to waste the experience working out their build, you want to savor the experience. Who knows when you're gonna get chance? Challenging PvP is not so easy to find these days.

Lots of people have gone over the reasons why PvP sucks. The most important thing to note is that the PvP was incredible in the beta's, and it sucks now. Clearly, the reason it sucks is directly related to the changes they made to the game at release. The fact that they made these changes, apparently without any testing, and the fact that they have absolutely refused to even consider the possibility that they MIGHT have made an error, doesn't bode well for PvP being fixed, ever, but certainly not soon.

And that is the reason many PvP guys have left the game, and most likely will not be back. And that (the missing players) is likely the reason Anet considers the PvP to be the least important aspect of the game. Regardless of what they say, actions have always spoken louder than words. And their actions shout that they don't care about PvP, which makes the players leave, which gives them less incentive to care about PvP, and on and on.

I can't honestly think of a reason to bother putting a team build together. I'd say given the stagnant environment, you could get away with simply working out what you need to stand up to the metagame as it is. It's not likely to change much.

Mimi Miyagi · Aug 19, 2005, 04:43 AM // 04:43

I've considered posting our HoH build - but every time I think I would, I ask myself "Why?". Bragging rights? To show that we've come up with something no one else runs? That TSF isn't a cookie cutter build team? To show how l33t we are?

None of those are very good reasons.

IMO, if you're played against TSF, you've seen our build(s), which may or may not be the same exact thing the next go around, as we're constantly evolving the builds to counter the current FOTW. Since we PvP just about every night, all of the so-called top teams have run against us at least once - sB, iQ aB - etc.

Thus, my response would be - if you've played against us, you know what we do and don't need us to post our build to beat us. If you haven't, then you don't need to know, do you?

Kaylee Ann · Aug 19, 2005, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sayshina

It's hard to figure out a build just by playing against it, but the REAL problem is that PvP is SO bad that when you do finaly bump into a decent team you don't WANT to waste the experience working out their build, you want to savor the experience. Who knows when you're gonna get chance? Challenging PvP is not so easy to find these days.

Actually this is completely untrue. Within the first 1-2 minutes of a battle I will have a build completely dissected and my entire team will know who is doing what. As a prot monk I have the ability to provide whatever protection is needed and still keep an eye on who is doing what. CTRL and ALT are also a prot monks best friends against those people who think they can sneak off. And if not me, because I am getting wailed on consistently, someone else will do it.

And, the top 5 American teams currently on the ladder know each others build inside and out for the most part. Everyone sits in IRC and BSes about it all the time....

Nightwish · Aug 19, 2005, 07:51 AM // 07:51

This topic interest me quite significantly. Sayshina mentioned about beta's pvp being different from the one now. I never play beta before, hence, Im wondering if anyone cares to point out the difference

Were builds able to be kept more secretly back then?

Asplode · Aug 19, 2005, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Alright, let me put it to you real sipmle, stumpy. There are several fundamental builds out there you'd see in tombs.

1) incendiary ranger build - This is what MS was running, and what a lot of tombs guilds are emulating (and failing miserably at, IMO). This isn't really an altar-taking build as much as it is an altar stealing, and holding build. It lacks offensive power but it interrupts up the hizass. Best defense is to find and disrupt the incendiary rangers (r/me's, usually) and since they're taught to be retardedly aggressive, pull them out and away from the fight before picking them off. Do note not all of their rangers carry incendiary arrows, only about 2 do. Finding them, extending them, and picking them off is key.

2) e/mo smiter builds - like all builds revolving around one or two core skills, this probably originated in 4v4. Like all smiting builds this carries an incredible amount of firepower, BUT only so long as key enchantments are up and maintained. This is countered, quite comically so, by nature's renewal spam. Just keep your ranger up and away from shutdown, drag their warrior smite-anchors away from the healers, and pick them off. The amount of e/mo's and the amount of anchors vary depending on the build, I've seen as many as 3, and as few as 1. Not all E/Mo's are smiters, though, which brings me to the next common tombs build...

3) Air Spiker build - Yeah these...still exist...and still get crushed terribly. I don't even need to explain to you what these are, mass elementalists, counter with fertile season and quick reflexes, endure the first few volleys, and then catch their targetting patterns, pull your targetted player back behind you, force their eles out of their wards and healballs, and pick off.

There's obviously much more builds out there, though, but you'll see those 3 much more often than anything else.

Silent Wandarer · Aug 19, 2005, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asplode

1) incendiary ranger build - This is what MS was running, and what a lot of tombs guilds are emulating (and failing miserably at, IMO). This isn't really an altar-taking build as much as it is an altar stealing, and holding build. It lacks offensive power but it interrupts up the hizass. Best defense is to find and disrupt the incendiary rangers (r/me's, usually) and since they're taught to be retardedly aggressive, pull them out and away from the fight before picking them off. Do note not all of their rangers carry incendiary arrows, only about 2 do. Finding them, extending them, and picking them off is key.

allow me to correct this little part :P
this is my opinion neway . MS have just copied the incendiary ramgers from Ascalon Electric Company guild and started running their build and they will say every1 copied their build neway being big headed gimps.

this build is really easy to counter since im a member of AeC and play it alot. if most ppl knew hwo easy it is to counter u wudn't be whininh here on the forums u wud be playing. And last thing its nt only the build that makes a winning team its the team work and communication of guild n team mates.

Sarus · Aug 19, 2005, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Wandarer

MS have just copied the incendiary ramgers from Ascalon Electric Company guild and started running their build and they will say every1 copied their build neway being big headed gimps.

this build is really easy to counter since im a member of AeC and play it alot. if most ppl knew hwo easy it is to counter u wudn't be whininh here on the forums u wud be playing. And last thing its nt only the build that makes a winning team its the team work and communication of guild n team mates.

If you took the time to type out actual words rather than abbreviate everything in "netspeak" I'd be more inclined to believe you. As far as I'm concerned nobody invented incendiary rangers. That's like saying you invented warriors that use sprint, or monks that use orison of healing.

Meeker · Aug 19, 2005, 02:18 PM // 14:18

No love for the Bearded Ladies build? I have seen it start to be copied recently. It also holds up decently vs. the incendiary arrows build that is rampant in HoH right now.

BTW: Ascalon Electric Company DOES run that build the best. I do not care who made it but they are the ONLY ones I worry about when we fight.

However we got a brand new build in the works and if it pans out there will be a surprise for all those ranger teams.

stumpy · Aug 19, 2005, 06:51 PM // 18:51

I realize the problem versus beta. Obviously it was far easier with all skills accessible. I spoke with my guild/other builders, and we have the consensus and hope to revitalize a once interesting topic of discussion.

I am currently at work but will post our builds for discussion. And to those that are 'fearing counters' you have to learn to roll with the punches no matter your circumstance. Usually counters built directly against some things ... will likely fail miserably on anything else. 'OMG h0w dod they WIN, we have NR down and they have Necros and Eles wtf??!!!1!!'

stumpy · Aug 19, 2005, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sayshina

The whole "people aren't sharing their builds because ..." arguement doesn't work or matter. Do you think Magic players didn't try to keep their secrets? If the player base was strong enough, if there were enough people playing PvP, if there were enough dedicated deck/team builders around, there would be no way to keep any secrets.

actually there are an incredible amount of resources that people use to build there decks. Usually they also check from there various resources for feedback and share there thoughts so other elite members with different perspective may give invaluable feedback. I refer you to:
http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/...7d8e9d03 2329
for magic deck/build discussions.

As the elite listing for this game you should expect more kinds of this type of discussions ... and benefits by utilizing what we have readily available. Knowledge. Well some of you have readily available

.

And Scaph .. yes I remember Rex. He was a vault of information for me in beta. When i start posting team builds I will definately post it in the appropriate forum. I just wanted to get a feel (general discussion) from other community members on what they thought of the idea. Surprisingly it has gone over better than I expected. I actually hesitantly wrote my OP expecting the majority to respond saying stuff like 'if you do then your a n00b cause I will make a counter and pwned u .... pffft.... n00bz'

Ensign · Aug 19, 2005, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Interestingly enough the last time we played that build your guild beat it. Wow we must be sucking if we lost to you

I'm still pissed about those losses. Not because of bad play or tactical mistakes, but because we were beat by generic tombs builds that in all honesty we should have rolled. We had simply made the assumption that we wouldn't be seeing tombs builds in GvG and didn't bring the requisite hate because of it - and, well, we got punished for our decision.

I'm never happy about making big strategic mistakes like that. Just have to suck 'em up and not make the mistake again. If you plan on playing in GvG, you can expect to see all sorts of randomness, including tombs or hall holding builds. Neglect preparation for those at your own peril.

Peace,
-CxE

Tigris Of Gaul · Aug 20, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'm still pissed about those losses. Not because of bad play or tactical mistakes, but because we were beat by generic tombs builds that in all honesty we should have rolled. We had simply made the assumption that we wouldn't be seeing tombs builds in GvG and didn't bring the requisite hate because of it - and, well, we got punished for our decision.

I'm never happy about making big strategic mistakes like that. Just have to suck 'em up and not make the mistake again. If you plan on playing in GvG, you can expect to see all sorts of randomness, including tombs or hall holding builds. Neglect preparation for those at your own peril.

Peace,
-CxE

Imagine planning to counter things like mass conditions, and then being too lazy to check what a sub-in is bringing in a match. Sub-in doesn't bring Matryr, and the other team's two trappers wreak havoc on us. I almost cried.