Curse

asdar · Aug 22, 2005, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Cool, that was what I was looking for to start this thread. Thanks Mistu Bishi.

Some inside info from which to learn.

salja Wachi · Aug 22, 2005, 07:17 PM // 19:17

sighs. it is not ahrd to kill the spirits. just ahve to keep at it. they go down like flies with edge.

Nash · Aug 22, 2005, 07:25 PM // 19:25

There needs to be bans handed out for idiocy.

Zealot Dang · Aug 22, 2005, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Yah, This guild comes up with me a feeling like they overpower all pple playing GW

First, they spam NR, it also effects to them. So, my first thought is DO WHAT THEY DO. We could build a same team as them, and spam spirit, just like another mirror. That makes them get in trouble.

Second, NR remove hex, enchant, take twice to cast, they know it 's also effect to them. So I suggest they bring non-hex, enchant skills or any skills that takes more than 1 sec to cast.

Ignore the hex,enchant, spike group would be recommended to counter But ... they cast Quickening Zephyr. (require 30% more energy to cast) which is not really good for Ele.

Using a Warrior group?, 6W,2Mo, could be much more dangerous to them, because W don't use skills as much as other classes. However, we can't bring this build all over HoH because we are not only Nature Renewal 's opponent. There 's various other teams beside.

Here I come up with a thought, Copy exactly the same they do. Doppleganger

Note: Sure they had thought about this problems (pple copy them), actually they gotta have a specific build, but we 'll figure it out.

Ensign · Aug 22, 2005, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

Spirit Spammer teams continue to dominate the Hall because only a select few players have thought of counter builds for it....and they aren't sharing.

And, perhaps more telling, they aren't winning either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by delfin42

Shouldn't you have a clear advantage in this situation, particularly if you go after the non-Rangers first?

In a one on one? Depends on how good they are with their spirits. If they're played well and use their spirits effectively to wall off the map and restrict movement, they might have a clear advantage even in an 8v7.

What about in the Hall of Heroes? They don't care about beating you, they care about stalling until they win. Their build focuses upon protecting Mr. Fertile Season spammer, and your build, though roughly identical, focuses upon something else. Even if you do dislodge them, you don't have the tools to tank two teams, aka level 11 Fertile Seasons, while they do.

On some level I agree that running a Nature's Renewal build without Nature's Renewal should give you some advantages, but in practice the combination of asymmetrical gametypes, and the practical advantages of creating spirit walls far outweighs the disadvantages of running those spirits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by delfin42

If you know that NR is going to be present, why not bring builds that work well under NR and let the opponent do the work of spamming it, using up a team slot or two in doing so?

So, first off you admit defeat and concede the NR battle. Enchantments and Hexes are bad. Good.

Second off, all you've managed to make dead by sacrificing 1/3 of the skills in the game is one skill slot on the other team's bar. How many spirits do you think the other team typically carries? I'll tell you it's usually somewhere around 4-5 on that Oath Shot guy. So now instead of spamming Nature's Renewal, he can spam one of the other spirits that gives you hell. Or, if he's smart, he'll keep on spamming Nature's Renewal to create wonderful new map features for your team to deal with. Even spirits that don't do anything have intrinsic value, you know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

So....you play pve or arena? Cause in tombs and to some extent gvg NR is the most dominant metagame factor that good players factor their builds around.

Oh, since we brought up GvG, anyone want to guess what Eternum Pariah has run to a 1933 rating and the #1 spot on the top of the ladder?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

As for spirits, meh. Spirit spam teams are easily defeated

That most people running a build are terrible isn't really a reflection on the build. People on these boards like to dismiss stuff like Air Gank as a viable strategy because it was a popular build to copy a couple months ago, but you know what? A well executed Chain Lightning spike, especially when coordinated with Nature's Renewal, still kills people instantly. Sure, most teams that run it are trash, but the few teams that can actually use it well? You'd be a fool to dismiss them because of their build.

Spirit spam is not going to go away - even ignoring the effects of the spirits themselves, the ability to wall off parts of the map gives you a potentially huge advantage in any highly mobile map, such as Relic or GvG. Are there a lot of teams that use spirits effectively like this? Of course not. But don't dismiss the concept. I'm sure that most teams were not amused by that 'useless spirit spammer' the first time they went to recapture the flag in GvG and realized that they could not because there was a spirit wall in the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdar

Edge of Extinction is great and about the only affective tool against spirits

Well it really doesn't do a whole lot about Nature's Renewal, because that skill kills by coming up not sticking, but it's great against Fertile Spam. Of course, to be effective in that role you need to have a high Beastmastery, and good defensive teams are always on the lookout for Edges to take out because they hurt their defenses, so you really want to spam Edge of Extinction...

See where I'm going?

Peace,
-CxE

Mitsu Bishi · Aug 22, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

The counters are there in my opinion - the problem is, you won't run into spirit teams all the way, so you've got to be able to beat all kind of teams and not only counter one kind of opponent (and be able to hold the HoH yet on top of that). That kind of balance is not easily achieved and I guess even sharing knowledge on those builds won't make winners out of those who copy them automatically.

salja Wachi · Aug 22, 2005, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitsu Bishi

The counters are there in my opinion - the problem is, you won't run into spirit teams all the way, so you've got to be able to beat all kind of teams and not only counter one kind of opponent (and be able to hold the HoH yet on top of that). That kind of balance is not easily achieved and I guess even sharing knowledge on those builds won't make winners out of those who copy them automatically.

you have a point there, but it is obvious the biggest challenge atm it Ss builds so you must bring the skills that counter that. that is not to say you must bring other things, but the biggest threat is ss counters.

i will give some of the build i have come up with to counter ss builds.

2 rangers are a must interrupts and edge.

at least 1 mesmer for energy drain and interrupt. if you can get edge down and kill spirits and interrupt the rangers from spamming more and more then you have a legitimate shot at beating the build. we have done so numerous times. (not saying we are the be all end all, but the way to beat a ss team is to make it impossible for them to spam spirits.)

the rest of the team can be made up of what you feel you like but include 1 warrior to start hacking at the spirits (he needs no enchantments to do a lot of damage)

between your staff weapons and the damage your warrior does you can take out spirits very quickly it is the ranger and mes job to keep an eye on the spammers and keep them either not able to make spirits or slow them down enough that the ones they do make will not be the difference maker.

Kishin · Aug 22, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

Silmore: my "Walking Bomb" build has little to do with sacrificing health as it does with committing suicide for a reason...

The fact that you proposed Suicide Necro as a solution pretty much shouts down from the mountaintops to all of us that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

duly noted

Served.

Maxiemonster · Aug 22, 2005, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Edge of Extition + Death Nova

Mercury Angel · Aug 22, 2005, 10:08 PM // 22:08

[repost]
Exact skill statistics

Elementalist
21 enchantments (26.6%)
6 glyphs (7.5%)
15 hexes (19%)
2 skills (2.5%)
35 spells (44.3%)
Total: 79 skills (99.9%)

45.6% of all Elementalist skills are either hexes or enchantments.

Mesmer
8 enchantments (11.1%)
24 hexes (33.3%)
5 signets (7%)
1 skill (1.4%)
20 spells (27.8%)
14 stances (19.4%)
Total: 72 skills (100%)

44.4% of all Mesmer skills are either hexes or enchantments

Monk
1 attack (1.3%)
40 enchantments (52.6%)
4 hexes (5.2%)
5 signets (6.6%)
2 skills (2.6%)
24 spells (31.6%)
Total skills: 76 skills (99.9%)

57.8% of all Monk skills are either hexes or enchantments.

Necromancer
15 enchantments (19.5%)
23 hexes (29.9%)
3 signets (3.9%)
4 skills (5.2%)
32 spells (41.6%)
Total skills: 77 (100.1%)

49.4% of all Necromancer skills are either hexes or enchantments.

Ranger
19 bow attacks (25%)
14 nature rituals (18.4%)
9 pet attacks (11.8%)
8 preparations (10.5%)
3 shouts (3.9%)
1 signet (1.3%)
6 skills (7.9%)
11 stances (14.5%)
5 traps (6.6%)
Total skills: 76 (99.9%)

Warrior
9 melee attacks (11.8%)
10 axe attacks (13.2%)
12 hammer attacks (15.8%)
9 shouts (11.8%)
2 signets (2.6%)
8 skills (10.5%)
17 stances (22.4%)
9 sword attacks (11.8%)
Total skills: 76 (99.9%)

All Professions
2 signets (100%)
Total skills: 2 (100%)

Total skills in all: 458

Of all skills, enchantments and hexes make up 150 of them (32.8%).

Strictly speaking about casters, there're only 304 skills available to them. That means of all caster skills, 49.3% of them are either enchantments or hexes.

PaulOtt · Aug 22, 2005, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Went into Tombs with a random pick-up group this weekend. Ran into the NR guild on the later 1v1 gold priest map. They have lots of spirit spam, some traps, and reasonable ranger and warrior damage. We did get the first kill, but they were quick with the res and whittled us down with the condition DoTs and consistent damage over time with Fertile Seasons up.

I wasn't that impressed. Then again, spirit spam teams don't really impress me that much in general. They won. Kudos to them.

Zeru · Aug 22, 2005, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Oh, since we brought up GvG, anyone want to guess what Eternum Pariah has run to a 1933 rating and the #1 spot on the top of the ladder?

I honestly don't know, though I have been wondering what they've been using. Care to elaborate?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

That most people running a build are terrible isn't really a reflection on the build. People on these boards like to dismiss stuff like Air Gank as a viable strategy because it was a popular build to copy a couple months ago, but you know what? A well executed Chain Lightning spike, especially when coordinated with Nature's Renewal, still kills people instantly. Sure, most teams that run it are trash, but the few teams that can actually use it well? You'd be a fool to dismiss them because of their build.

Spirit spam is not going to go away - even ignoring the effects of the spirits themselves, the ability to wall off parts of the map gives you a potentially huge advantage in any highly mobile map, such as Relic or GvG. Are there a lot of teams that use spirits effectively like this? Of course not. But don't dismiss the concept. I'm sure that most teams were not amused by that 'useless spirit spammer' the first time they went to recapture the flag in GvG and realized that they could not because there was a spirit wall in the way.

I was oversimplifying things in saying spirit spam is easily defeated. What I meant was that it is inherently a defense hall holding build and thus does not generally have high enough offense to beat most competent teams when it does not have the altar. For offense I would guess they would have to rely on the extremely strong debilitating shot which has absurdly good edenial with 4+ rangers and possibly 1-2 MA rangers which isn't a terrible offense but when you have so many slots tied up with spirits/oath shot/evade stances how effective can ones offense be compared to someone with a token 1-2 spirits at most in a non-holding build? Because rangers can't spike at all without quickshot you're basically left to do a lot of whittling down with debilitating shots keeping their energy low, if they can hit constantly given the terrain in some maps. If your defense is stable enough you'll be able to survive till the slow damage finally kicks in along with the energy denial, but that takes quite awhile versus a standard 3 monk team.

Of course when they have the altar, they are not going to be dislodged in a simple 1v1 or even a 2v1 with 1 stupid team that always seems to be there within the 10 minutes.

The spirit spam setup is very unique in terms of holding builds in that it is solid on both altar maps and relic running maps, unlike most healing ball versions which absolutely suck there. Being able to block out the chokes with spirits is quite a strong way of map control, because with fertile season it takes forever to kill them. Now if fertile didn't affect any spirits...spirit spam would be almost a joke as they die so fast otherwise.

As for spike teams, meh, I still don't consider them that great. They are always guaranteed the first few kills with good timing but they get owned especially hard by energy denial and signet of humility use which is effective against pretty much anything as well.

Van the Warrior · Aug 22, 2005, 11:06 PM // 23:06

from what i see spirit teams cant exactly spike damage so uh wouldng frenzy warriors help in knocking out their spirits etc? like frenzy axe wars and such im sure someone can make a build based around frenzy to just walk over spirits and etc or incorporate spirits and frenzy together to make it really nasty

Ensign · Aug 23, 2005, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

I honestly don't know, though I have been wondering what they've been using. Care to elaborate?

Spirit spam. In particular, tactical use of well positioned spirits to clog up the battlefield to their advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

What I meant was that it is inherently a defense hall holding build and thus does not generally have high enough offense to beat most competent teams when it does not have the altar.

It doesn't? I'd say that comes down entirely to your selection of spirits. A Ranger dropping Symbiosis and Fertile Season is unquestionably a defensive character, but he could just as easily kick out Predatory Season, Edge of Extinction, and Nature's Renewal, and that's a character that's far from defensive. You're not giving up an entire build to run spirits. You give up a single character, who can radically change the battlefield to be whatever you want it to be. It's more than a fair trade, and you can make a perfectly reasonable build with 3 Monks, one tactical spirits guy, and 4 offensive characters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Now if fertile didn't affect any spirits...spirit spam would be almost a joke as they die so fast otherwise.

Which is why that's exactly the nerf that just about everyone who knows what's going on is calling for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

As for spike teams, meh, I still don't consider them that great. They are always guaranteed the first few kills with good timing but they get owned especially hard by energy denial and signet of humility use which is effective against pretty much anything as well.

I agree about spike teams getting hit hard by energy debil, but Signet of Humility? What exactly does that do against a spike team?

Peace,
-CxE

Mithie · Aug 23, 2005, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Which is why that's exactly the nerf that just about everyone who knows what's going on is calling for.

Peace,
-CxE

Nerfing Fertile is fine and dandy, but that still doesn't stop NR from raping all the enchants + hexes the moment it's slammed and slammed repeatedly.

Theus · Aug 23, 2005, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

Nerfing Fertile is fine and dandy, but that still doesn't stop NR from raping all the enchants + hexes the moment it's slammed and slammed repeatedly.

Nerfing Fertile basicly taking 370 hp off of NR, which in turn makes it easier pray for killing and for skills like EoE.

I know what yoursaying....The use of Oathshot with Spirits is the real culprit.

Mumblyfish · Aug 23, 2005, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

Nerfing Fertile basicly taking 370 hp off of NR, which in turn makes it easier pray for killing and for skills like EoE.

There's no point at all in killing Nature's Renewal. The biggest "I'm going to kick your ass" effect comes in the second the spirit is put down, the removal of all Enchantments and Hexes on the battlefield. Even if Fertile Season gets nerfed, Nature's Renewal will be every bit as bad as it used to.

Zeru · Aug 23, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Spirit spam. In particular, tactical use of well positioned spirits to clog up the battlefield to their advantage.

The water ele seems out of a job

This is intersting though, because it pretty much guarantees them a huge advantage in flag control which is obviously a key point of a gvg match. Tactical movement in general is a heavily underestimated part of 8v8 so I can see why they've had their success so far then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It doesn't? I'd say that comes down entirely to your selection of spirits. A Ranger dropping Symbiosis and Fertile Season is unquestionably a defensive character, but he could just as easily kick out Predatory Season, Edge of Extinction, and Nature's Renewal, and that's a character that's far from defensive. You're not giving up an entire build to run spirits. You give up a single character, who can radically change the battlefield to be whatever you want it to be. It's more than a fair trade, and you can make a perfectly reasonable build with 3 Monks, one tactical spirits guy, and 4 offensive characters.

I guess I should give some clarification: most spirits don't have their biggest effect when they are dropped, but rather over the length of the battle. NR is a partial exception to this, killing enchant and hex heavy builds in more than 1 way. It takes 2 hammer swings to kill a spirit without fertile and very little time lost to do so, basically mandating fertile if you want your spirits to be kept up because otherwise it takes less effort to kill one than to make another. I guess you could have an offensive build with fertile, but those are pretty rare and restricted to those that need time to have an effect, a la mass dot and energy denial.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I agree about spike teams getting hit hard by energy debil, but Signet of Humility? What exactly does that do against a spike team?

If you are going to use heavy energy denial would it not be wise to also shut out the means of energy management? This seems like a natural combo to me; you keep their energy low and you keep their way of regaining energy out of comission. A spike team will want to keep their energy as high as possible for as long as possible so they can use their early numbers advantage before their lack of stamina kicks in. Since all good energy management skills are elite, soh is the best tool to shut them down.

Timoz · Aug 23, 2005, 01:37 AM // 01:37

<<Staying on topic..Hehe, The Guild Natures Renewal are a newly formed guild of people who all recently left The Esoteric Warrriors.

I believe after playing them their build consists of 1 trapper, 1 spirit spammer, 3 monks, 1 axe warrior, 1 interrupt ranger and another ranger damage dealer.

They focus heavily on the spirit spammer and will focus efforts on anyone who gets in his way and causes him trouble.

I won't go on to what i've heard about where they got their build (look at where they left) as after talking to them apparently its untrue

Maybe if theres someone on the forum from either NR or EW they can rectify that

Kishin · Aug 23, 2005, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

The water ele seems out of a job

He's been out of itr since Nature's Renewal reared its head, since it completely decimates 2/3rds of the Hydromancy line.