Curse

Kishin · Aug 22, 2005, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

Hi! My name is Oath Shot.

You forgot about Oath Shot's 2nd cousin Quickening Zephyr, who, when their powers combine, form not Captain Planet, but the ability to drop NR once every 10 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

1 ranger can't spam Nature Renewal. it has a 5 second cast time and a 60 second recharge time. If you're dropping 1 every minute that's not exactly spamming. Take out the NR then take out the ranger...its not difficult.

Spirit Spammer groups become a problem when you have multiple rangers. 3 rangers could effectively spam Nature Renewal...this is where you need to come up with a build. I've come up with 2 and I've talked to other people that have come up with a couple. I believe Salja has 1. So that's 4 or 5 different counter builds for spirit spammers.

it's not that they are doing something right...it's that all of their opponents are doing something wrong.

See above. 1 Ranger can spam Nature's Renewal pretty damn effectively.
Also, taking out the Nature's Renewal is not the issue. Its not the 2x recast that's the problem at all. The real damage is done as soon as the skill drops and it wipes all enchantments. Go ahead, kill it, which is a pain in the arse anyway with Fertile Season up. When the next one hits 10 seconds later, there goes all your enchantments again.

Nature's Renewal instantly counters over 100 of the game's 400+ skills. Instantly. Don't make me repost the list. It spits in the face of build diversity and the metagame, and the only reason its gotten to this point is because all other forms of enchantment removal are trash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

how is NR not balanced? Does it remove enchantments and double casting time for only 1 team and not the other? Maybe it's my lack of intelligence or my thick skull....but last I checked it stripped enchantments on anything in the area...that seems pretty balanced to me. People just don't want to have to deal with it so they'd rather ArenaNet nerfed it to the point that nobody would use it.

Nobody wants it nerfed to the point of unusability, but ratcheted back into the realm of balance would be nice. Like I said, all enchantment removal needs fixing, as has been pointed out on this board 2923884394233 times by PvP players far better than you and I. To use a variation on your own argument, Carrying Renewal is not far from "I don't want to deal with Enchantment counters, so I'll just drop this every so often and that's the end of it." It's a crutch.

Weezer_Blue · Aug 22, 2005, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfy3455

I wouldn't count on that. People still actively run ele spike groups :P

That's cause newbs still get killed by them.

Silmor · Aug 22, 2005, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Algren, I requested you post a build to defeat Nature's Renewal spam in another thread, which you unfortunately never followed up upon, despite your incessant claims that people who couldn't counter it were just not thinking very hard and were generally lazy.

Now you blatantly ignore (simple unawareness?) the combination of Nature's Renewal and Oath Shot and imply Nature's Renewal only drops every sixty seconds, which just shows you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. I'd appreciate it if you either did a shred of research on the subjects you keep posting stupid comments on, or to just quit trolling. Thank you.

Weezer_Blue · Aug 22, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

The closest you can get to it is dropping Edge of Extinction and proceeding to AoE a big clump of them. However, with the other team breathing down your neck the entire time, that's not exactly going to work. It's mroe griefing than it is useful, in my oppinion - except on the stupid defensive maps such as the Hall of Heroes and other KotH maps.

Nightsorrow · Aug 22, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

I think things like Spike Ele groups are just an inherant feature to the game. They're the most obvious single target damage dealers - so naturally there will always be teams that want to take a pure damage team with no support - because chances are you'll either wipe the floor with your opponent, or be the floor-wipe yourself.

As for Natures Renewal (the spell) - I think people need to come up with some better non-enchantment based builds. Fair enough (puts on flame-proof coat) my pvp experience has come from 4v4, NOT HoH - so I don't know how things convert, but I rarely come up with a build that hinges entirely on Enchantments - in fact I rarely run that many enchantments at all - so is this really such an immense problem for people?

Mithie · Aug 22, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

I have a build that can effectively pwnz0r (is that the word you kids use nowadays?) spirit spammers. I won't tell you what it is (probably because it doesn't exist) but I'll tell you this:

It involves the following skills:

1. Flare
2. Meteor Shower
3. Rodgort's Invocation
4. Otuyg's Cry
and
5. Signet of Capture.

That should be enough for you to figure out the rest of the build. If you can't, well, sorry to say it, but you're a newbie.

Spirit spamming can easily be countered. Hell, I do it all the time. I do it so well, I don't even NEED a full team of 8. I can do it SOLO.

Algren Cole · Aug 22, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

Algren, I requested you post a build to defeat Nature's Renewal spam in another thread, which you unfortunately never followed up upon, despite your incessant claims that people who couldn't counter it were just not thinking very hard and were generally lazy.

Now you blatantly ignore (simple unawareness?) the combination of Nature's Renewal and Oath Shot and imply Nature's Renewal only drops every sixty seconds, which just shows you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. I'd appreciate it if you either did a shred of research on the subjects you keep posting stupid comments on, or to just quit trolling. Thank you.

take two steps back...you standing on my nuts hurts. no I will not give you a build...I will however say that Edge of Extinction and Suicide Necro's are a perfect combination for defeating spirit spam teams...you go figure out the build. that's the point of the game.

I honestly don't care if they nerf nature renewal...it wouldn't change my game in the slightest. I do however have a large problem with the fact that everyone calls for a nerf as soon as a creative build is introduced. it happened with spike groups...it happened with the invinci-monk build (which isn't even close to invincible)...it's happening with Nature Renewal...it will happen with every creative build anyone makes. And arenanet will jump all over your nutsacks and nerf it for you....it's sad...

IlikeGW · Aug 22, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

If people would share their counters there would be zero risk of nerfs in the game, ever.

But the majority play FotM (requiring no thought on their part), an extreme few have the time to make counters (requiring tons of thought on their part) and if the few don't share the counter, assuming it truly works, then they are the ones responsible for an eventual nerf to FotM.

I know, it would suck severely to be one of the few doing the work, discovering new things, and not getting much credit or getting others to do some work of their own... but that's the way of life. People are f'ing lazy and don't try hard.

Zeru · Aug 22, 2005, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

lol. At least they're honest.

"Nature's Renewal has won the Hall of Heroes..."

Hahahaha

Algren Cole, from your posts you obviously have no clue why anyone is saying NR is overpowered. I suggest you go read a few of the topics centered on NR and look why people say it is so cause what you're posting is just completely wrong.

Quote:

I honestly don't care if they nerf nature renewal...it wouldn't change my game in the slightest.

So....you play pve or arena? Cause in tombs and to some extent gvg NR is the most dominant metagame factor that good players factor their builds around. If NR went byebye with no other changes the good builds currently in use right now in tombs (not saying fotm builds btw) would be completely obselete.

Quote:

I do however have a large problem with the fact that everyone calls for a nerf as soon as a creative build is introduced. it happened with spike groups...it happened with the invinci-monk build (which isn't even close to invincible)...it's happening with Nature Renewal...it will happen with every creative build anyone makes. And arenanet will jump all over your nutsacks and nerf it for you....it's sad...

Learn to differentiate the good players from the scrubs. Spike groups are fine, they can work decently well, but they're hardly overpowered. No good player is going around saying warrior monks are overpowered. No good player cares a fingernail about invincible monks cause they are stupid in pvp anyway. NR is being called for a nerf because it makes a very large number of skills in the game obselete and restricts a wide variety of possible builds because the cost of using it is far far too low. If you listen to every opinion, you're going to learn a lot of wrong things, like what you just posted.

As for spirits, meh. Spirit spam teams are easily defeated, the only problem is when you get 1v1s in the hall or a 2v1 with a crappy second team because a good defensively based team will be able to hold the 10 minutes when it's not a well coordinated 16 vs 8. Fertile, Natures, and possibly QZ are the only ones which would have any balance issues. The others are just fluff for the most part.

asdar · Aug 22, 2005, 06:27 PM // 18:27

This is futile. You don't have a build that counters it. If you knew what you were talking about it would be happening and it's not. Tell us your team and when you'll be on so we can watch for the win. If you win ONE single HoH without spirit spamming then I'll admit you're on to something.

Edge of Extinction is great and about the only affective tool against spirits but to make that counter even mildly affective you have to have a ranger or subclass ranger with some big skill points in beast mastery. Not only that but killing every single spirit doesn't replace your enchantments so you have to play a build that doesn't rely on enchantments or hexes.

The team casting them could go with three ??/ranger subclass rangers with zero skill points in their ranger skills and strip your enchantments and hexes every ten seconds in addition to making any ench or hex take twice as long to cast. It's balanced because both teams suffer the same but it takes no skill and ruins two of the four main lines of attack in the game.

The truth is that people who play ranger main support it because they want the easy road the same way some monks support Balthazars and the 105 builds.

Algren Cole · Aug 22, 2005, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Hahahaha

Algren Cole, from your posts you obviously have no clue why anyone is saying NR is overpowered. I suggest you go read a few of the topics centered on NR and look why people say it is so cause what you're posting is just completely wrong.

I feel no need to read any of the bullshit posts made about NR...I can counter it therefore I don't care if it's overpowered. and if I can counter it everyone else can as well. I'm not special, im not any better than an average player, im not of extreme intelligence or superior gaming ability....Spirit spam teams are easily countered. I have no aspiration to read the asinine reasons people want this skill nerfed...because it's not grossly overpowered...it's marginally overpowered at best.

Silmor · Aug 22, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Algren, there's plenty of people who unjustly call for nerfs. But because of these people you constantly throw the "oh you're just stupid" or "oh you're just lazy" argument in the faces of people who actually know what the hell they're talking about when they're talking about imbalances. For someone who has spent as much time as you have on these forums, you should really know better.

Ofcourse you don't give a build, because you can't. Any build you can come up with (Edge of Extinction? The most important aspect of Nature's Renewal takes effect the moment it finishes casting, how the hell is Edge of Extinction going to stop that? Sacrifice Necros? You're going to sacrifice health under Fertile Season and the like? You realize they sacrifice a percentage of maximum health, right?) is going to be ripped to shreds by the people who have actually experienced this.

Your faith in the supreme balance of Guild Wars, where everything has a balanced counter if you just puzzle things together clever enough, is very cute and touching. It's however entirely disconnected from reality, a reality I propose you simply don't know anything about. Yet somehow this gross lack of actual insight doesn't stop you from constantly weighing in with your opinion on the subject, insulting people who have devoted hours and hours of their time experiencing, discussing and documenting this issue by claiming they're dumb and lazy, and to make matters worse you seem to refuse to actually read up on the subject, giving the same snotty, retarded "dumb and lazy" remark in every thread about it.

Mithie · Aug 22, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

The only way to successfully counter NR is by not running any enchants/hexes, which all fine and dandy, until you realize "whoops, there goes 1/3 of the game".

Zeru · Aug 22, 2005, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

I feel no need to read any of the bullshit posts made about NR...I can counter it therefore I don't care if it's overpowered. and if I can counter it everyone else can as well. I'm not special, im not any better than an average player, im not of extreme intelligence or superior gaming ability....Spirit spam teams are easily countered. I have no aspiration to read the asinine reasons people want this skill nerfed...because it's not grossly overpowered...it's marginally overpowered at best.

Don't spread ignorance. If you choose to be oh well but this forum has enough stupidity as it is. What you're doing is trolling so either put up some good reasons behind what you say or shut up and go away.

I know counters to spirit spam, it's not very hard. Spirit spam teams get absolutely raped by fear me because its so easy to spam with all the various spirits around. That's one out of several different ways. 'Countering' NR means not running a heavy enchant or hex heavy build. That's not a difficult concept at all and not the problem. The problem is that NR kills variety by making hundreds of skills total crap and restricting viable builds greatly, and if you don't believe that you really have no business posting in any pvp topic.

You're thinking a skill is only overpowered if it can't be effectively countered which isn't true at all. Mithie's post is a simple and good explanation of why (a bit overgeneralized but meh):

Quote:

The only way to successfully counter NR is by not running any enchants/hexes, which all fine and dandy, until you realize "whoops, there goes 1/3 of the game".

Silmor · Aug 22, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

Silmore: my "Walking Bomb" build has little to do with sacrificing health as it does with committing suicide for a reason...

Hey, with ideas like yours, I'm all for euthanasia.

wolfy3455 · Aug 22, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

Silmore: my "Walking Bomb" build has little to do with sacrificing health as it does with committing suicide for a reason...

Let me guess, you have six necros or /ns (one being a ranger with 16 bm to put up the eoe) kill themselves with death nova on and eoe up in the general area of a team, then have a 7th player have been button mashing putrid with a light of dwayna rezmer? I'd guess an average of two novas would hit each person since spammers tend to stick together for healing spring so 205 damage per person with 312 eoe damage then damage from the putrid spammer. I'm guessing I'm completely wrong but thats the most efficient suicide build I can think of off the top of my head, besides minion massing which gets owned by putrid and smiting.

EDIT: Actually, I was just thinking LoD res for the cast time, I didn't pay attnetion to the cooldown so just replace that part in my guess with a normal rez.

Scaphism · Aug 22, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Algren: Put up or shut up. Period.

Tigris Of Gaul · Aug 22, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

Algren: Put up or shut up. Period.

All in favor say "aye."

Mitsu Bishi · Aug 22, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Actually NR the guild is not pure spirit spamming. We won against them in HoH today and they had a spammer, but didn't hide themselves behind millions of spirits like others do. So it was a pleasant fight and not a griefing session, I think all three parties weren't affected by NR too much

Algren Cole · Aug 22, 2005, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

Algren: Put up or shut up. Period.

duly noted