Curse

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 23, 2005, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luna Thirteen

All the time I notice people ranting on how "grind ruins the fun of the game, I want to play the game, not grind blah blah blah" and I started to think about what these individuals are actually implying. I've pretty much grown up on RPGs. In the course of every one of these games, I've had to level up my characters through random battles so that I would be strong enough to continue the progression of the game. I don't recall ever saying to myself "Wow, Final Fantasy is boring, this game should just be cutscenes and boss battles." or "I'm sick of leveling up. Why don't I get to start at level 99?" The fact is that games all require some form of grind or another. If they didn't, games would be too boring and I would offer no satisfaction when one earns a victory. These little "victories" are often the result of hours of work. Finding that max damage gold rare stormbow is a big deal, not because it's fun to run around in Lion's Arch advertising a "GODLY STORMBOW ONLY 150K" but because you have something to show for the hours of work you put into the game. Honestly, if you have such a huge problem with Guildwars rewarding grind, then I have no clue why you're playing this game. Someone who has spent over 500 hours playing the game is just going to have more stuff than someone who has played 100 hours, despite that they may be at the same point in the game. That's just realistic.

Someone who PvPs all day every day is going to have access to more stuff through faction points than someone who doesn't. That's not saying "If you don't play all day, you can't win." It's just the way games work. If you feel like you have to "grind" to compete with everyone else, then you're right. But realize that such is the way in every videogame. You just have to go through the motions sometimes. If it's that terrible for you, then I guess games aren't for you. Try reading a book or something. But just so you know, you'll probably only be interested in the first and last page

/signed /applaud /salute

So entirely correct.

And I'm not going to quote SOT on it but I think hes dead on correct on this issue in his first post.

Finally, to the person who suggested that team fortress doesnt have grind. I dont want GW to turn into a FPS. If yorue looking for a massively multiplayer FPS i'd suggest planetside. Thanks )

john little · Aug 23, 2005, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Grinding is a fault with players, not the game. If you play GW normally till the next expansion, you will be able to afford 15K armour. If you do UW regularly you *might* have enough to get fissure armour (I imagine that was intended as an even longer term goal). I see nothing wrong with rewards for long term players. Unfortunately, everyone wants to get that stuff as quickly as possible and deteriorate their playing experience to get it - 'if they nerf farming i'll buy off ebay' syndrome.

It similar with skills, if you play a 'normal' amount you will get most of the skills, and all the ones you *need*. To be honest I was suprised they left in premade lvl20 characters in the release version, I had expected them to be a beta only thing to sort out skill balance.

What I do find highly ironic is the players saying 'fps'es don't have grind', when Battlefield 2 has (if you look at it in the way most players seem to approach long term rewards) the biggest grind ever (i think you need to play for almost 3 years to get the highest rank, and 1-2 years to get all 6 unlocks on one character). FPS players can accept them as long term rewards, why can't MMO players? It's all just bits and bytes.

Saerden · Aug 23, 2005, 09:18 AM // 09:18

i find it highly amusing when people claim that RPGs dont format your HDD when clearly, Pool of radiance formated your HDD when you tried to uninstall it.
/sarcasm off

i think its clear now that people will go to all lenghts to defend the pathetic unlock system where it is clearly inferior to WoW, Everquest, Lineage, DS II and Diablo II systems. Wait did i say that games with mind-boggling grind are in some way better then GW? Yes.

Because they are. In GW, the best way to play the game is to afk-rush and farm. Everyone who tells you otherwise has no clue. Skillquests are much faster with a level 20 in Forge armor. GW has the most stupid grind that i can possibly imagine. You dont get power rewards, (skills, runes and weapon upgrades dont increase your power like items usually do in other games). They are not flashy, cool or even meaningfull. Mind freeze. AHAHAHAHAHA. Its RARE, its ELITE, it has a GOLDEN BORDER. OMG. Yet the grind rewards are powerfull enough to unbalance high level competitive play (semi-competitive+). Joe the n00b wont pwn anyone with the max level UASed account he just spent 1000h (or 1000$) to unlock. Yet the Guild NoLife that normally would be ranked around 20. on the ladder has an advantage against CasualPros who would be 1st in UAS environment, but cant (or just dont want to) waste 1000h of their life on UAS accounts. The n00bs dont get the feeling that their pathetic lifes actually mean anything, and the pros - who care about human skill and not about virtual muscles - get their competitive game destroyed.

The only reason so many people still bother is because, unlike all the other hyped games of history - wether high profile or not (fable, battlecruiser, daikatana, MOO III) - it actually delivered what it promised, but then decided to remove it.

Edit: stupid placement of "dont"

Grindwarrior · Aug 23, 2005, 10:17 AM // 10:17

What annoys people who don't like grinding is kind of like an extremely tasty deliscious cake that someone decided to pour some awful goo on. Some even think it might be one the best cakes ever made but they can't stand licking that disgusting goo off it to get to the good stuff. Then there's the people who actually like the goo...

For slow people:
the goo = the grind
the tasty cake = guildwars

Sanji · Aug 23, 2005, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by john little

Grinding is a fault with players, not the game.

Bull, grind is every bit the fault with the game. If a game can be played "wrong" or has things that must be endured, then it is an issue with game design. Guild Wars' problem is due to how the content in it buried and the skill point system set up. It is completely Anet's fault for the snowball effect of everyone thinking that they need to run through the game. It started with PvPers repeating the game to get the most out of the meger amount of Skill points we are given and it now has caught on like wildfire. Running became an industry and an artform thanks to the skill distribution and repeative gameplay.

You have to go to the same outposts, do the same missions, and grind the same monsters to obtain skills. You should not be strategic or frugal with your skill points or character slots. That is why the current rate of skill points and PvP unlocks is a design flaw.

I have played through the game 4 times and made the most out of every single last skill quest. I have an age of 560 Hours. I still have 56 skills to go. I am for the most part finished, since most of the remaining 56 skills are garbarge or stuff that doesn't interest me.

My personal experiences isn't what bothers me, they are more or less just statistics to me since I actually kinda dig playing abnormally.

. My concern is that at the rate Guild Wars is going, much like most ambitious hybrid games, that it will only appeal to a niche market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by john little

It similar with skills, if you play a 'normal' amount you will get most of the skills, and all the ones you *need*. To be honest I was suprised they left in premade lvl20 characters in the release version, I had expected them to be a beta only thing to sort out skill balance.

Until you figure out the medicore amount of skills you got for two professions become boring and that it's rather stale to play with (not to mention play against) the same old Profession combinations or unsatisfying to only have small selection of incomplete builds.

The fact remains, that you will have to play abnormally just to have a decent seletion of skills. The game shouldn't punish people who want to experiment with different skills and Profession combinations especially since the nature of the game makes it important to be flexible and have first hand experience with the different Professions and Skills.

You can't appoach Guild Wars as an MMORPG in this. When it comes to the larger scale PvP, you can't think of it as a one person thing since the game is based more on team building, flexibility is required to get the most of the game. People are going inactive because their Guilds are going inactive.

The current unlock system is detrimental to people who want to enjoy a broad selection of skills. There is absolutely no reason for it to be that way, it does nothing positive for the game.

It's not going to provide the endless grind the MMO/Hack n' Slash junkies want and any depth in PvP will be totally wasted on someone who isn't willing to play far more than they honestly should to get to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by john little

FPS players can accept them as long term rewards, why can't MMO players? It's all just bits and bytes.

Guild Wars isn't an MMO, nor did most of us want it to be a FPS. What most people who complain are sore about is that Guild Wars certainly isn't like how it was in the beta, explained on the interviews, or advertised on the box.

Nash · Aug 23, 2005, 11:33 AM // 11:33

OK, so you've played a bunch of grind games, and you like grind, and thus decided that all games require grind, and grind is the most fun thing ever, and without grind people would get bored. Yay you?

Then you ask why we're playing this game if we don't like grind (of course you choose to disregard all the people who quit because of grind). Maybe because it wasn't supposed to be a grind-fest? Did you play in beta? Did you watch those interviews? Doesn't seem like it. Your opinion does thus count for nothing. Yay you.

Then you go insulting people just because they don't want to play your way, as if that would somehow strenghen your case? Yay you!

Grindwarrior · Aug 23, 2005, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Not to mention there's 2 million games based on nothing but the grind for the grind lovers to play, and their getting more and more common. WoW anyone? Wait, Oh I forgot, all games HAS TO BE THE SAME!!! OMG!111shift+1111!! how could I forget.

Old Dood · Aug 23, 2005, 11:48 AM // 11:48

I do not see how they can make a game without any type of Grind until they develope a computer or a game with true A.I. Computers are still only big old calculaters. They crunch numbers. Once they make a computer and a game that uses true A.I. then all games will have some of the same elements that we have now.

Mugon M. Musashi · Aug 23, 2005, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Is it possible to have a game where people don't whine about how other people play ?

jeez, if you don't like to grind, then don't (you don't need to grind to be competitive)
some people obviously have time and pleasure doing it
what gives you the right to tell them what to do ?

Mumblyfish · Aug 23, 2005, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mugon M. Musashi

jeez, if you don't like to grind, then don't (you don't need to grind to be competitive)

No. No, you do need to grind to become competitive. If you've only unlocked Mesmer skills, then if your guild team doesn't need a Mesmer you simply can't play. If you haven't done the grinding to unlock the best weapon upgrades, Superior Vigor (and Superior Absorption if you want to play a Warrior primary) then you're already at a statistical disadvantage before you even hit "Enter Mission". Becoming competitive requires a significant time investment in order to overcome having statistics against your favour.

Grindwarrior · Aug 23, 2005, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mugon M. Musashi

Is it possible to have a game where people don't whine about how other people play ?

jeez, if you don't like to grind, then don't (you don't need to grind to be competitive)
some people obviously have time and pleasure doing it
what gives you the right to tell them what to do ?

Do you think the people who really want to get at the deliscious cake underneath all the disgusting goo that is the grind are more upset about them having to lick the goo they dont like off first or the person next to him who loves the goo and happily licks it up and then throws the cake away uninterested? Then goes on saying:

-"hmm, do you think they could ever make a cake without that nice "goo"? Nah, it wouldn't really be a cake then."

Sanji · Aug 23, 2005, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mugon M. Musashi

Is it possible to have a game where people don't whine about how other people play ?

jeez, if you don't like to grind, then don't (you don't need to grind to be competitive)
some people obviously have time and pleasure doing it
what gives you the right to tell them what to do ?

People using kneejerk phrases like "whine" and posts like these in general are ignorant and lame because it presumes people are speaking out on this issue because they don't want to grind and want to instantly be uber.

That is not the case.

All I am saying, and will continue to say until this becomes a lost cause is that Anet needs to be more aggressive in dealing with their PvP unlock rates, because I'm sick of not having any friends and Guild Mates to play with, or even if they are on, not being able to run the build we want.

Forget about grind, I didn't buy this game to play in Random Arena or play in crappy Pick up Groups thanks to all the good players burning out.

Grindwarrior · Aug 23, 2005, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Exactly, most of the good players just say "screw it" or are sick of the game after all the grinding and then leave. Your left with a bunch of noobs to play with and against.

SOT · Aug 23, 2005, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Please read my first post in this thread again to see why this thread is doomed.

No amount of debate can save it.

Grindwarrior · Aug 23, 2005, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

Please read my first post in this thread again to see why this thread is doomed.

No amount of debate can save it.

You mean this thread sucks since there's ppl who don't agree with you? That we should "work" in our games and do boring repetitive stuff over and over just to feel "accomplishment" when we finally get some item/skill/level? Who is telling who how he should be playing here?

trelloskilos · Aug 23, 2005, 03:17 PM // 15:17

I'm going to go back to the OP's post for a sec....

There seems to be some confusion over the definition of "grind" in the responses that the OP was trying to reveal in their opening thread. Let's have a look at what "grind" is before flaming all and sundry.

Grind (by my definition) is the repetative aspect of a game. By this definition, most games have an element of 'grind', from "Pong" and "Space Invaders" right up to the latest bestsellers like GTA: San Andreas, or FPS games. Even a game like GTA:SA or some of the Final Fantasy games, they may include "Mini-games" but the crux of the main gameplay is the same, just sheened over with a bit of sophistication.

Now the "Grind" aspect of GW is that in PvE, you go out, kill monsters, get to an outpost, buy and sell, go out, kill more monsters, repeat. OK, well that sounds pretty much like an FPS to me.

There is a sense of progression through the game, as the player increases up through levels, perform primary co-op missions and quests, unlock skills, etc. hmm...it's still grind, but there is a sense of development and purpose here.

There are a myriad of skills to put into play, different areas to explore, different effects, styles of play and teams to play with. Have we lost the grind yet? Not quite, cos in order to get those skills, and develop those styles of play, you still have to fight through monsters...

Now whether you think all of this is fun, or whether you think it's a tedious grind is a very subjective thing. I for one don't mind the odd bit of repetative gameplay. After all, it's still more diverse than playing something like Quake (where it all seems to be "Kill monsters, run through a linear map, kill more monsters" from the moment you load up to the closing screens.), and I think even the jaded "anti-grind" arguers such as Sanji here (a forum contributor who always makes good observations IMO) cannot deny is that at the heart of it all, GW is still a fun game to play. If the "grind" thing was that bad, would you play through the PvE four times?

Just enjoy it for what it is, guys and gals. It's a game. There's bound to be an element of repetative gameplay in it. The game has the potential for very little grind. It's how you approach it that matters.

Sainte · Aug 23, 2005, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Hes there the thing. You NEED to grind EXPERIENCE in Guild Wars to unlock skills, unless you can get faction. Ive done every skill quest, and used all my skill points, and Im only half down unlocking thr skills for my E/N, not including that I got 3 Necro elites only.

This is the repetitive grind. When you go outside a town in other games, everything is random, you dont know where what will spawn. In guild wars, its more like "ok, Devourer spawns there, griffons there, run around, and kill x 1000" and so on.

SOT · Aug 23, 2005, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grindwarrior

You mean this thread sucks since there's ppl who don't agree with you? That we should "work" in our games and do boring repetitive stuff over and over just to feel "accomplishment" when we finally get some item/skill/level? Who is telling who how he should be playing here?

Well no, no one has disagreed with me. In fact no one reacted to my post at all, which was written from past experience. People do not want to grind because they want instant gratification was all I said. the fact you chose NOT to read it and at least disagree or not is not my fault.

I did not say the thread sucked. I said the thread is doomed because people skirt the issue because they refuse to see how human nature, not videogame idiosyncrasies destroy the experience.

People, not the game designers, ultimately make a game experience what it is for them, and their peers.

Your post was useless. Try again.

Algren Cole · Aug 23, 2005, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumblyfish

I'm astounded. No, not all games have "grinds". In fact, very few do, and MMOs are the biggest culprits. There's no grind to, say, Team Fortress, as a brand new player has access to everything a seasoned competitive player has. Of course, the seasoned player will win in a fight between the two, but that's decided by skill and not arbitrary conditions like weapon unlocks or attributes that must be gained by playing the game for X amount of hours. Your notion that all games involve grind is, quite frankly, insane. And as much as I loathe Final Fantasy, it's a poor example. I've only played a couple, but there's no grind. You're never forced to raise your stats to continue, and even finish the game. I've bever had to "level my characters through random battles so I would be strong enough to continue", as you put it. Of the few Final Fantasies I've played, I never once had to stop playing to go fight the same monster over and over again for items or experience.

Your post is horribly short-sighted and misinformed. Frankly, I don't even think you've played that many games at all, or at least ones that aren't grind-orientated stat-fests.

you've either never played final fantasy or never even came close to finishing one. I've played 11 of them(not including the MMORPG) and every one of them requires you to level your character so you can continue playing. No you don't map in and out of an area and kill the same monster over and over(the game isn't designed that way)...but you do have to run around the world hoping something will aggro so you can experience from it. It's a simple fact, Role Playing Games have grind...and they always will.

asdar · Aug 23, 2005, 03:53 PM // 15:53

You don't need grind in any game in my opinion.

Think of the highest grind MMO's, EQ, SWG, WoW and so on.

You could have those games without levels. Then the excitement and focus could shift from level grind to exploration. I think there are people that want that grind of hard work for a number but I can't believe it's most people.

I take much more satisfaction in getting to a new place or killing an unkillable monster than I do in a number beside my name.

If you have levels you have grind, the same goes for skill unlocks.

I personally think that skills and weapons should be built into a storyline for PvE. GW almost gets there with skill cap rings but not quite. Say Boss X is in his castle and he's a great mage who discovered an important skill. You need to kill him to get the skill. That part is good. The bad part as I see it is that the bosses are random and they're easy.

They're so easy as to make it vital that they are random or people would do the game too quickly and leave before a new expansion.

A rose by any name and all that jazz. I don't care what you call it, I still think the grind in any game is unecessary.

As far as PvP I don't understand A-Net's position at all. I mean, i understand that they want to keep the PvP'rs around for a long time and a huge number have undertaken the grind which keeps them active in the game, and so that's a good thing from their perspective.

I don't understand why they just assume that their game is so weak that the game play itself won't keep them hooked with UAS.