Curse

nailz · Sep 20, 2005, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

Nonsense. You always buy the RIGHT to use the software. In online games, there is also the matter of the servers they run, which IS a service that may be terminated of couse. When you buy GW you ALWAYS will have the right to use it because you OWN the right to use the software. In the case of GW it just might happen that this right won't do you any good if ANet decides to shut down the servers.

I was speaking too specifically about this game to be accurate. Your right to play guild wars is guaranteed...your privelage to use the servers is not(which renders the game useless)

Quote:

yes, that was in short what I tried to say...

So as not to be a troll I will expand upon my "EULAs are bullshit" comment.

The following are cases where EULAs and Copyright Infringement have been brought to case...none of which were successful

Vault Corp vs Quaid Software 1988
The Shrinkwrap License
ProCD vs Zeidenberg
Novell vs Network Trade Center

The following case is one to really note...as it was the case that ruined EULAs for software companies UCC Step-Saver

I quote an excerpt

Quote:

The court noted, "When these form licenses were first developed for software, it was, in large part, to avoid the federal copyright law first sale doctrine" thus the intent of EULAs after 1990 were to preempt federal statutes using contract law and that they serve no purpose besides attempts to preempt consumer rights in other statutes. In this case, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit held that a EULA disclaimer waiving all express and implied warranties, printed on the outside of the box, was not binding

Aaron: An EULA is in no way legally enforceable. And it probably never will be in the U.S., they violate certain guranteed constitutional rights. However, the development company has the constitutional right to deny you the privelage of accessing their software. While you do still technically have the legal right to play/sell the game they have the right to deny you access to their servers. Making many many new games unplayable.

trelloskilos · Sep 20, 2005, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

Usually we won't even know who's right, because right is whoever's got the better lawyers...

You are O.J Simpson and I claim my five pounds.

Bottom line is, right or priviledge, Anet can still boot you off if they deem you to be breaking the rules (Hence the bot kicking....pun intended on accounts that were seen to have bots)

I personally think that the evolution of the online-account-to-play games such as GW and Half-Life 2 is a bit of a necessary evil. After all, in the day and age where P2P gives you illegal but free potential access to films, music, games, programs etc., that developers are to a large extent entitled to protect their interests, otherwise, what's the point?

On the other hand, it is excessive to the point where a copy of the game is permanently linked with the purchaser. Unlike most other games, films, music legitimately purchased, then sold on Ebay, the stipulation is that while a 2nd hand copy of a game like Doom 3 can be sold on Ebay, GW cannot.

Now some will argue here that according to most EULAs, there will be a clause stating something along the lines of "Any form of recording, duplication, piracy, distribution to 3rd parties, or use of this game/film/music for financial gain or blah blah blah without the express permission of the author is in infringement of the author's intellectual property/copyright etc.", and this is where the grey area falls.

If the EULA is strictly adhered to, your family and friends sitting down to watch a DVD is an infringement. Singing the lyrics to a song at a karaoke bar is a crime (especially in my case!)

Even reading a book aloud to someone else, having a game on the Xbox with your mates, overhearing a tune played on a neighbour's hi-fi or learning to play a tune from a music book are all potentially infringing.

Fortunately, our society is not so Orwellian....yet.

However, most people (Including Developers & Copyright holders) would agree that sharing a game/film/music within a household is condoned. Most would also turn a blind eye to original games sold on Ebay as second-hand. Most wouldn't mind someone lending a game to a friend over a weekend (as long as that friend doesn't make a pirate copy) - you get the idea....

...but with Guild Wars, all of the above is impossible.

I actually asked the devs at guildwars.com this question a while back. Basically, me and my brother live in the same house, & have our own PCs on a home network. I bought the game, and I want to share the game with him. After all, we're both in the same household, we do that with our other games/films/books/programs etc. would I be able to share the game with him, and would we be able to play online at the same time?

The response basically told me that it was best for my brother to buy his own account key.

I wasn't really that upset by the answer, much, well...a bit. But while I understand Anet wanting to rid themselves of Piracy, they should consider that the account registration system will have its upsides and downsides to the consumer, and while Anet do hold the cards in matters like this, is it not a bit too greedy to hold such a tight rein on user accounts, or insist that each individual household member require their own personal copy?

chris_nin00 · Sep 20, 2005, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Well, there is really nothing you can do on the matter...
Just buy the game retail, you'll be good.

While you're pondering on the decision...
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=61961

Makaio · Sep 20, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

As I read this thread it amazes me how many people key in on issues that they have NO idea about.

Misleading information, on-the-spot posters and other such nonsense really serves to confuse the issue.

First mistake:

1. By purchasing Guild Wars, you are only receiving a LICENSE to use the Software.

You DO NOT OWN it. The EULA states that the LICENSE is not transferrable. Just because you paid for something, does not mean that you own it. The rights to the software remain exclusively ArenaNet's.

Think of your driver's license... if you read carefully the fine print many state that you must surrender the license upon request. It remains the sole property of the state office that issued it.

2. Do not blame ArenaNet because you wanted to save a buck or two. You ALWAYS get what you pay for. Always.

You got jacked over $20, dude, face the music. Being cheap got you where you are. Now it's going to cost you another $50.

Loviatar · Sep 20, 2005, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by trelloskilos

is it not a bit too greedy to hold such a tight rein on user accounts, or insist that each individual household member require their own personal copy?

just give him 2 of your slots to play and you are good to go......just time share on the single account you purchased.

if you want them to set up multiple accounts you pay for each one.

how do they know he is actually your brother instead of a friend sharing the same hotmail address? (8 total slots)

what if you have 5 brothers? (24 total slots)

5 brothers and both your parents plus 15 cousins (you have a big house see) 84 slots maybe

to prevent fraud they set it up as one person (who can share ) to one account

Fantus · Sep 20, 2005, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makaio

As I read this thread it amazes me how many people key in on issues that they have NO idea about.

Misleading information, on-the-spot posters and other such nonsense really serves to confuse the issue.

First mistake:

1. By purchasing Guild Wars, you are only receiving a LICENSE to use the Software.

You DO NOT OWN it.

Have you actually READ the thread??? Because you are at least the 500th person telling us that (and yes, it's correct

).

nailz · Sep 20, 2005, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

Have you actually READ the thread??? Because you are at least the 500th person telling us that (and yes, it's correct

).

LOL...I was just thinking that.

and the argument has shifted to whether or not the EULA is a legally binding contract....I'm pretty sure we are all aware at this point that the EULA states that you don't own the software only the privelage to use the software...However, is the EULA legal?

Sciros Darkblade · Sep 20, 2005, 08:54 PM // 20:54

The EULA is not legally binding per se, but since ANet is not legally bound to open their servers to you, what's "legally binding" is largely irrelevant. You guys have been beating this dead horse for a while now; whether or not something is legally binding only matters in the court of law, and that's not where this is going to end up.

Basically, an EULA is insufficient to back up a claim in court. That's what I've gathered from scanning this thread and looking over the relevant cases.

The credit card fraud is a different matter altogether, and has pretty much nothing to do with anyone's EULA.

So,

1) it's possible to get the $ back as long as you try hard enough and you have the necessary information to provide the CC company
2) it's not really possible to get that account un-banned unless you're friends with the right people at ANet

aron searle · Sep 20, 2005, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

.I'm pretty sure we are all aware at this point that the EULA states that you don't own the software only the privelage to use the software...However, is the EULA legal?

To which any good lawyer would reply...

hmmmm, its a grey area. (ching ching)

varyag · Sep 20, 2005, 09:16 PM // 21:16

ANet forbids people to sell the product/service that they purshased?

Nonsense. Contact BBB.

nailz · Sep 20, 2005, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

To which any good lawyer would reply...

hmmmm, its a grey area. (ching ching)

actually they wouldn't...they'd look at precedence and realize that there is none and say that EULAs are not legally binding...and in many many cases infringe on your constitutionally guaranteed rights.

My-Excuse · Sep 20, 2005, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vusak

there is a simple and annoying reason why i never buy second hand online games.

C D K E Y

if anyone else in the world (except the developer/publisher) has my cdkey, then its likely im gonna try and login one day and get 'error - cdkey in use', 'error - account banned', 'error - password incorrect', etc.

you dont buy non-shrinkwrapped games from shops.

you dont buy ex-rental games from dvd/video stores.

a cdkey is effectively worth the $RRP that you pay. everything else you could get from nefarious sources if necessary (a buddy, p2p fileshare, no questions return policy electronic shops).

online access to secured servers that verify your purchased cdkey is the real price of a game, and you should ensure that you ensure nobody else knows that key.

yes it sounds paranoid, but geez itd suck to see your key sitting in a text file on edonkey.

doesnt help the OP too much, but im hoping others wont make the same mistake.

CD-Keys are irrelevant in GW. You can bind the CDkey to your e-mail, name and even house address. the only thing that could or would happen is a situation that im in where the original payment for the software and CD-key was canceled.

Ok im going to put an end to the pointless bickering.

you have all lost sight of the larger image here. this is no longer about me losing my small ammount of 30$, if you have read any of my posts you would have noticed that I said the original seller had "numerous" accounts for sale.

even if he had 10 accounts, that is 500$ ANet is out. not to mention 10 people who have also lost an account because of this.

if it's just me, i will cut my loses but seriously, what if a family friend bought you GW for your birthday/holiday. Now what if that person, forgetting the name of the gift, thought it was fraudulant and canceled the purchase. You would be stuck in the same situation.

id like to also take note that im guessing the majority of you who said i should have just bought the game in store are also the kind of people who will buy a game the first day it comes out instead of waiting a month to get it at a much cheaper price.

I am no longer concerned about my lost 30$ CD-Key, my account still exists so i can always buy a new CD-key. I AM concerened that I may have not been the only victim of the sellers fraud games. if i am, ill chalk it up to a life experience.

Aniewiel · Sep 20, 2005, 11:47 PM // 23:47

/closed

Thanks for your effective wrap up. It's appreciated.