Curse

twicky_kid · Sep 23, 2005, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man With No Name

We can't compare Ranger interupts to Mesmer's -- since ( bar human error ) Mesmer interupts don't miss. Ranger interupts are hard interupts -- Blind screws it, Enchantments screw it, Stances screw it, Spirit Shackles screws it....

name any spell or skill on this game and i can make a huge list of what will screw it. does that mean it will be used in hoh or gvg? no it doesn't. tired of hearing that arguement.

btw my 120 dmg isn't counting any dmg from savage shot. you left out winnowing and favorable winds being multiplied by your marksmanship. your calculations are off by the 100s of dmg.

MarkyX · Sep 23, 2005, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

used to use that exact same build. found the points in flame are wasted for conjure for at lvl 9 for only 10 dmg.

Kindle arrows + conjure flame = over 20 damage.

Faced an interrupt ranger who thinks he can deal more damage then me in a duel today. He lost because I slapped in lightning reflexes in my build. While I admit that they get the first few seconds of dealing more damage, they need to wait for their skills to recharge, while I can spam quick shot WITH tiger's fury or lightning reflexes no problem.

Just for the hell of it, I used zealous bow string to test out if conjure flame works with kindle arrows. Apparently it does so I don't even have to worry a bit about energy.

AeroLion · Sep 23, 2005, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

But arrows can be avoided, yes? Spells can't. There's no 75% chance to avoid a mesmer spell being hurled at you, for example. There's balance.

You'd pretty much have to be prescient to avoid an arrow shot from a short bow with favourable winds down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

While I admit that they get the first few seconds of dealing more damage, they need to wait for their skills to recharge, while I can spam quick shot WITH tiger's fury or lightning reflexes no problem.

Recharge isn't a problem if you run it with serpents quickness. You can literally spam them all then. It sounds like the person you came across wasn't using it if there was downtime for him.

Also, over 20 damage? Why are you even running conjure when you can get "over 20 damage" with kindle alone easy. Seriously, what is your attribute spread? With a 14 or 15 in expertise, 12 in marks, 4 in beast (at least), doesn't exactly give you much wiggle room with conjure to make any appreciable differance.

MSecorsky · Sep 23, 2005, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeroLion

You'd pretty much have to be prescient to avoid an arrow shot from a short bow with favourable winds down.

Or around the corner, or in a stance, ...

MarkyX · Sep 23, 2005, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

name any spell or skill on this game and i can make a huge list of what will screw it. does that mean it will be used in hoh or gvg? no it doesn't. tired of hearing that arguement.

Here's the schtick, mmkay...

If you decide to make a build with little to no defences, you make yourself open to attacks that would otherwise suprise you.

There is a pretty damn good reason why stances exist, and a damn good reason why "empathy", "Price of Failure", "Spirit of Failure", and so forth. You put spirit shackles on an interrupt ranger, he is GONE.

The problem is ...most people just go out all offensive. The W/R builds? Yes, they deal a buttload of damage, but they are very often screwed by a single hex like shadow of fear and. I know some shutdown mesmers that don't use defenses, and you know what happens to them? They die.

Lately I've been using my own little ranger build that uses Melandru's Resilience (yes, the elite) and Lightning reflexes...

You know what happens when I get fragged in 1 on 1? I thank the mesmer in public chat for giving me free health as if I got a healing breeze (for 30 seconds) and the 6 eng regen rate.

It's called defences. Interrupt rangers are like warriors; they both use physical attacks to hurt you. If you don't bring your own defensive abilites or at least some counters, expect to die from us. Especially if you honestly believe that third-rate mesmer is going to be a threat.

Stop pinning the blame on interrupt rangers being 'overpowered' and start thinking on how to exploit their bold-headed behavior. Start thinking on how to protect yourself instead of relying on the monk all the damn time.

MarkyX · Sep 23, 2005, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeroLion

You'd pretty much have to be prescient to avoid an arrow shot from a short bow with favourable winds down.

Recharge isn't a problem if you run it with serpents quickness. You can literally spam them all then. It sounds like the person you came across wasn't using it if there was downtime for him.

Also, over 20 damage? Why are you even running conjure when you can get "over 20 damage" with kindle alone easy. Seriously, what is your attribute spread? With a 14 or 15 in expertise, 12 in marks, 4 in beast (at least), doesn't exactly give you much wiggle room with conjure to make any appreciable differance.

Fire magic 9
Beast Master 8 (9, minor)
Expertise 8 (12, superior + mask)
Wilderness Survival 7, (9 major)
Marksmenship 9 (10, minor)

My health is around 405, so I can't take a beating. Only thing I can do is bring lightning reflexes. If I want to be a total bitch, I can bring dryder's defence instead of favorable winds.

I would deal less damage of course, but I would live just a tad longer so the monk can say "shit, the ranger is dying"

Which is what defence is all about...delaying the death.,

FrogDevourer · Sep 23, 2005, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tijger

Its already been clearly stated that only PvP players have any say here and specifically casters who are the ones being hit by interrupt rangers, after all, it doesnt help their case with Anet if ppl have the audacity to disagree with the proposed nerf.

Using sarcasm because you run out of arguments? PvP players are looking for balance because any random build can get you through PvE with henchmen. You don't need balance for PvE. Period. That's why PvE players are not concerned about the current 'abuse potential' of a few ranger skills. However, I bet if a few packs of 5/6 'interrupt spammers' Jade Bows were added to TK, many PvE players would be screaming. For the records, PvE players didn't even know these interrupts had been changed by the secret buff of doom.

And since you seem to have missed half the thread, yes you can have the audacity to disagree. Just don't forget to use valid arguments. We're not sharing opinions, we're having a discussion based on facts, and on numbers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

I surrender. I can't grasp your logic. Would you please be so kind as to explain why Leech Signet is not balanced?

45 sec recharge
enough said

Sorry but I don't understand. Please reread the original posts including User_Name's reply and explain what you mean. If you think Leech Signet is weak due to its recharge time, then I think you missed the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

I would like to thank the mod for deleting my post without any reasonable explaination.

You're welcome. Now if you take the time to read my previous posts (or even better the whole thread) and double-check the forum rules, you might be able to get an explanation. And for the records, I didn't remove any picture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glockjs

and im sorry if your team cant go in and roll over the other team to do what they want to do to the other team...there's 8 skills you can fill in your bar...before you put that last uber last of the 8 uber skill you need for your elite combo you might want to think about some sort of counter instead.....

No offense intended, but did you post this in a random thread or do you actually think this paragraph brings anything valuable to the thread?

Is that some sort of variant of the "can be countered" rhetoric?

twicky_kid · Sep 23, 2005, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

Here's the schtick, mmkay...

If you decide to make a build with little to no defences, you make yourself open to attacks that would otherwise suprise you.

There is a pretty damn good reason why stances exist, and a damn good reason why "empathy", "Price of Failure", "Spirit of Failure", and so forth. You put spirit shackles on an interrupt ranger, he is GONE.

The problem is ...most people just go out all offensive. The W/R builds? Yes, they deal a buttload of damage, but they are very often screwed by a single hex like shadow of fear and. I know some shutdown mesmers that don't use defenses, and you know what happens to them? They die.

Lately I've been using my own little ranger build that uses Melandru's Resilience (yes, the elite) and Lightning reflexes...

You know what happens when I get fragged in 1 on 1? I thank the mesmer in public chat for giving me free health as if I got a healing breeze (for 30 seconds) and the 6 eng regen rate.

It's called defences. Interrupt rangers are like warriors; they both use physical attacks to hurt you. If you don't bring your own defensive abilites or at least some counters, expect to die from us. Especially if you honestly believe that third-rate mesmer is going to be a threat.

Stop pinning the blame on interrupt rangers being 'overpowered' and start thinking on how to exploit their bold-headed behavior. Start thinking on how to protect yourself instead of relying on the monk all the damn time.

my point exactly if you prepared yourself defensively against anything that comes your way in the hoh you wouldn't have anything else.

the ranger only needs 4 offensive skills, res sig, and 3 open slots for wards, spirits and healing.

all comes down the team in the end but i think that team built right with ranger interrupts will be more consistant than any other team.

best stategy on this game is to interrupt you opponents stategy. the rangers acomplish this while they kill you in seconds.

FrogDevourer · Sep 24, 2005, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

Stop pinning the blame on interrupt rangers being 'overpowered' and start thinking on how to exploit their bold-headed behavior. Start thinking on how to protect yourself instead of relying on the monk all the damn time.

I invite you to reread the thread carefully. The topic of this thread is: "ranger interrupt skills: are they more powerful than they should be? and if so, what is the best way to put them in line with other interrupts and other ranger skills?".

Yes you can counter such an interrupt ranger. That doesn't make it balanced. Period. That's why using the prehistoric "can be countered" argument is considered irrelevant here.

Man With No Name · Sep 24, 2005, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

name any spell or skill on this game and i can make a huge list of what will screw it. does that mean it will be used in hoh or gvg? no it doesn't. tired of hearing that arguement.

btw my 120 dmg isn't counting any dmg from savage shot. you left out winnowing and favorable winds being multiplied by your marksmanship. your calculations are off by the 100s of dmg.

Just for fun lets add in Winnowing, Favorable Winds and even Conjure Flame ( although they'll have to have Fiery Bow Strings now since Kindle doesn't work )

Again, if we assume a Ranger with:

12 Marksmanship
14 Expertise

With the 3 main skills:

Punishing Shot -- 10e -- 1/2 sec -- 8 seconds -- Interupts and does +18 dmg
Distracting Shot -- 10e -- 1/2 sec -- 10 seconds -- Interupts and hits for 15 dmg
Savage Shot -- 10e -- 1/2 sec -- 5 seconds -- Interupts and hits for 25 dmg if that action was a spell

Now ignoring preparations and critical hits, adding in Winnowing, Favorable Winds and Conjure Flame:

The most a Punishing shot will now hit for is: 28 + 18 + 10 + 10 == 66 dmg
The most a Distracting Shot will hit for is: 15 + 10 + 10 == 35 dmg
The most a Savage Shot will hit for is: 45 dmg on a spell or 20

Now, even with 8 Rangers hitting Punishing Shot and landing a max hit -- the damage will only amount to: 66 x 8 == 528

Now with 8 Rangers hitting Distracting Shot -- the damage will only amount to: 35 x 8 == 280

Now with 8 Rangers hitting Savage Shot -- which only deals damage on a spell == 45 x 8 == 360

So that's 528 + 280 + 360 == 1168 dmg for a whole team of 8 in 1.5 seconds with the next full run taking 10 seconds to be ready

Again we assume that:
- Each arrow hits for the max on the damage range of a Bow -- 28 dmg
- They have Conjure giving out 10 dmg
- They have Winnowing for 4 per arrow
- They have Fav Winds for 6 per arrow

And we assume that every single arrow doesn't miss, get evaded or blocked

We also assume that each Savage Shot interupts a spell -- which it won't -- at most 1 or two might hit for 45 dmg with the rest hitting for 20

A more realistic number then is:

528 + 280 + (45x2) + (6x20) == 1018

That's for a full party of 8 Rangers in 1.5 seconds with the next full run being availible in 10 seconds time and I've been generous with my numbers...

Thoughts..??

twicky_kid · Sep 24, 2005, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

Sorry but I don't understand. Please reread the original posts including User_Name's reply and explain what you mean. If you think Leech Signet is weak due to its recharge time, then I think you missed the point.

what page is it on? this thread has gotton huge since i checked it 2 days ago.

twicky_kid · Sep 24, 2005, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man With No Name

JSo that's 528 + 280 + 360 == 1168 dmg for a whole team of 8 in 1.5 seconds with the next full run taking 10 seconds to be ready

ok now dmg right but still missing the recharge affect of serpents and QZ stacked.

it doesn't take 10 sec it really takes 4 sec for the maximum. 1 sec for savage shot which is even better than quick shot ever hoped to be.

MarkyX · Sep 24, 2005, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

I invite you to reread the thread carefully. The topic of this thread is: "ranger interrupt skills: are they more powerful than they should be? and if so, what is the best way to put them in line with other interrupts and other ranger skills?".

Yes you can counter such an interrupt ranger. That doesn't make it balanced. Period. That's why using the prehistoric "can be countered" argument is considered irrelevant here.

Look, I've read the thread already. What I'm reading? Whining and nerfing.

The reason why spirit spamming needed to be nerf because there was little counters. Same with putrid.

Interrupt rangers, on the other hand, have loads of counters. It isn't just one or two, but almost every class has something for a ranger (or warrior) that likes to spam attack skills.

If you are not using them, guess what? You will lose.

FrogDevourer · Sep 24, 2005, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

The reason why spirit spamming needed to be nerf because there was little counters. Same with putrid.

We have a winner. You do know ANet also changed 50 other skills from all professions in the same update, right? Guess why. B.A.L.A.N.C.E. And try to follow the discussion, we're not whining, we are USING these interrupts.

twicky_kid · Sep 24, 2005, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

If you are not using them, guess what? You will lose.

and thus is why the nerf of spirit spamming happened. it wasn't b/c it was good or b/c they affected each other. it was b/c you either used it or you lost. that's a warp of the metagame that dulls the game and makes people leave.

i use an interrupt ranger and i made this thread way before anyone else has even made an open discussion about (besides the occasional whining).

just want the game to stay with in balance. since the nerf of spirits more players have come back to pvp and more have converted from pve to pvp.

EndobioticChaos · Sep 24, 2005, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

Here's the schtick, mmkay...

If you decide to make a build with little to no defences, you make yourself open to attacks that would otherwise suprise you.

There is a pretty damn good reason why stances exist, and a damn good reason why "empathy", "Price of Failure", "Spirit of Failure", and so forth. You put spirit shackles on an interrupt ranger, he is GONE.

The problem is ...most people just go out all offensive. The W/R builds? Yes, they deal a buttload of damage, but they are very often screwed by a single hex like shadow of fear and. I know some shutdown mesmers that don't use defenses, and you know what happens to them? They die.

Lately I've been using my own little ranger build that uses Melandru's Resilience (yes, the elite) and Lightning reflexes...

You know what happens when I get fragged in 1 on 1? I thank the mesmer in public chat for giving me free health as if I got a healing breeze (for 30 seconds) and the 6 eng regen rate.

It's called defences. Interrupt rangers are like warriors; they both use physical attacks to hurt you. If you don't bring your own defensive abilites or at least some counters, expect to die from us. Especially if you honestly believe that third-rate mesmer is going to be a threat.

Stop pinning the blame on interrupt rangers being 'overpowered' and start thinking on how to exploit their bold-headed behavior. Start thinking on how to protect yourself instead of relying on the monk all the damn time.

Yeah but here's what you're missing. You're thinking in terms of taking out one interrupt ranger, and even the proponents of nerfing the interrupts agree that's no problem. I myself can think of a dozen ways to shut down one of these rangers with my mesmer. The problem is when you have 3+ interrupt rangers. Now you're going to have to have 3+ sets of counter skills, just to counter this one build. (And god forbid you only have 4 effective counters while they have 5 rangers.) Some skills like blinding flash, aegis, or shields up might work vs the whole group of rangers if they're newbs, but not normally, especially if the rangers are smart. And none of these group counters stops the damage from the preps so you're STILL getting hit for massive damage even if you're not being interrupted.

In the mean time while you're wasting skill slots to counter the interrupts, their builds are good basically vs anything. Most decent builds include 50% casters or more and even the popular iway build falls soon if iway gets interrupted or a necro dies. And as has been stated umpteen times the reason this build is overpowered is basically because of the damage dealt along with the interrupts which makes it good even vs warriors that don't cast a single spell. When I first started reading this thread I was inclined to think they were just whiners about wanting to nerf something that's fine as is (the way it was with protective bond..) but after reading the whole thread I see that's not the case. There really is an imballance here and it really does need to be addressed. Hopefully when they do address it they're careful enough not to overcorrect.

Man With No Name · Sep 24, 2005, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Oooh quoting myself oO

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man With No Name

Blah Blah Blah, see above:

Now we'll add in QS + QZ

So that's 528 + 280 + 360 == 1168 dmg for a whole team of 8 in 1.5 seconds with the next full run taking 4 seconds to be ready

Again we assume that:
- Each arrow hits for the max on the damage range of a Bow -- 28 dmg
- They have Conjure giving out 10 dmg
- They have Winnowing for 4 per arrow
- They have Fav Winds for 6 per arrow

And we assume that every single arrow doesn't miss, get evaded or blocked

We also assume that each Savage Shot interupts a spell -- which it won't -- at most 1 or two might hit for 45 dmg with the rest hitting for 20

A more realistic number then is:

528 + 280 + (45x2) + (6x20) == 1018

That's for a full party of 8 Rangers in 1.5 seconds with the next full run being availible in 4 seconds time and I've been generous with my numbers...

1018 dmg ( without preparations + spirits + conjure + base damage of 28 ) every 4 seconds then

Dare I ask for thoughts..?? oO

EDIT:

And Shinsei or the other IQ members will likely shoot me for spreading false propaganda -- if my numbers are wrong

EDIT 2:

Just as I've done max damage hits (28) I thought I'd better do min damage hits (15) -- so for Punishing Shot that's: 15 + 20 x 8 == 280 --> 1018 - 280 == 738 every 4 seconds

twicky_kid · Sep 24, 2005, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man With No Name

1018 dmg ( without preparations + spirits + conjure ) every 4 seconds then...

hope that clears up the dmg output of this build. cool thing is that's just minimum dmg.

oh btw kindle does still work with conjure. you don't need a firey bow string i take a sundering, but then again i don't use conjure.

armor of earth, ward vs melee or elementals, and heal party are better used than conjure. that's for another discussion

Man With No Name · Sep 24, 2005, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Kindle wouldn't work in my examples ( since I've made preparations not work, as suggested earlier... ) otherwise you'd have to add another +16~ damage per arrow

And since Kindle doesn't work -- Conjure shouldn't work without a Fiery String

As it is now with preparations stacking with the arrows -- we can use Kindle +16~ per arrow and a Vampiric String for +5 dmg per hit

Assuming all my numbers are right -- this is making my Axe Warrior look like a little girl

twicky_kid · Sep 24, 2005, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man With No Name

Kindle wouldn't work in my examples ( since I've made preparations not work, as suggested earlier... ) otherwise you'd have to add another +16~ damage per arrow

And since Kindle doesn't work -- Conjure shouldn't work without a Fiery String

As it is now with preperations stacking with the arrows -- we can use Kindle +16~ per arrow and a Vampiric String for +5 dmg per hit

Assuming all my numbers are right -- this is making my Axe Warrior look like a little girl

LOL

forgot you where doing that calculation with suggested changes to not count preperations.

but still impressive with the changes which begs the question: not counting preperations for interrupts really make that much of a difference?

i think the fact that you interrupt is enough to justify it to have a slower recharge.

at least most spike builds out there take 15-20 sec to fire off the spike where the ranger can do it in 4 sec while interrupting.