Curse

Rey Lentless · Aug 18, 2005, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Ferocious Strike- This skill's fine once all of the other things wrong with beasts are fixed.

Practiced stance- It's great when combined with choking gas. Fits into no other build.

Warrior's end is one of my favorite warrior elites. I prefer this and battlerage to make the rest of my bar better.

Cleave is nice because it's 'another' adrenal skill. Since these fill up independently, it's a good skill to use if you just have a ton of adrenal skills. It's power comes from it not replacing another skill, but adding yet another to your bar.

The skills I think are trash..

All of the mind ele elites except for shock.

Ineptitude and signet of midnight- Basically arena skills that are trash in 8 on 8.

Keystone- We all know this is crap.

Unyielding aura- Vengeance is better.

Healing hands- Needs a recharge reduction.

Restore conditions- Too expensive, and martyr's too good.

Shield of deflection- Too expensive compared to ward, aegis, guardian

Feast of corruption- For a pbaoe, it just doesn't do enough.

plague signet- With all of the other great condition removal out there, this isn't worth bothering with.

grenths- arena and lord sniping skill, but crap other than that.

Flourish- Needs to be a shout, having a cast time on this is retarded. It should be moved to tactics to allow a r/w (who it would be best on) to possibly use it.

Escape- Good for running, but warriors do this better anyway. Compare this to charge (a fast recharging shout that effects all allies and allows use of a stance) and this skill looks even worse.

Dwarven battle stance- Too short, costs too much, and it's a stance. There are much better ways to interupt targets, warriors can't afford to use this crappy interupt.

Skull crack- Same as dwarven. Concussion shot is far superior to this. This needs an upgrade somehow.. cost less, does bonus damage, knock's down, etc.

ZD_kusanagi · Aug 18, 2005, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meeker

Except for the fact that you will hjave to carry cleave and dismember. I can carry cleave and execution strike or penetrating. THen the damage scale gets tipped right back in Eviscerates favour.

How many warriors out there only carry 2 attack skills.. seriously you will most likely be carrying penetrating blow, AND executioner's strike, AND the elite (either cleave or eviscerate)...

Soul Shaker · Aug 18, 2005, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Angel

Warriors Endurance: I'm not sure exactly, but I'd imagine it's intended to be used with a lot of energy based skills chained together. Unfortunately, since it's strength-linked, nobody but a warrior can use it really, and since it's elite, there's not much you'd want to use with it. On a Protector paladin, recasting Aegis for the party using a Zealous sword hilt for energy management was already easy. I very rarely got to cast Shield of Regeneration, as it was either unneeded, or I didn't have the energy. Unfortunately, I wouldn't have it if I had Warrior's Endurance, and I'm not sure what I'd use with it then, since I need to stick with single second cast skills with 10 second downtimes or more if I want a reasonable damage output.

[Not that I am not disappointed by some of these skills especially]

Yes, warrior's endurance is kind of a useless elite with the energy gain limit, but shield of regeneration, certainly not. Use complete adrenline-based warrior skills, along with cheaper monk skills and it's great. +40 armour is a big deal, and with the healing as well makes it powerful, but VERY underrated.

Ensign · Aug 18, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Well skills are elite because of all sorts of gametypes, not just 8v8 in Tombs or GvG. They want to keep everything sane afterall.

Healing Hands is a skill that's elite solely because of the WaMo. Because of his armor this thing is basically always a full heal. Of course in PvP the self-defending WaMo isn't particularly relevant. Gladiator's Defense falls into the same category - it's a solid PvE skill where you want to tank, but in PvP the skill simply isn't that good.

Word of Healing is decent - not spectacular, but decent. There are certainly worse elites to carry and it's an amazing heal during emergency situations. But generally we want something great in our elite slot, not something decent, so Word gets left behind.

Ferocious Strike is actually a pretty good elite for Warrior/Ranger combos with pets. Any weakness of the skill is a consequence of how bad that combination is.

Only problem with Practiced Stance is that the preparations that you really want to use it with are elite. Right now it's basically a one trick pony with Choking Gas. In fairness, that one trick is better than a lot of people give it credit for. But it's an incredibly narrow skill as things stand.

A lot of the rest of these aren't really bad as far as effects go, they're just underpowered. Look at Shield of Regeneration / Shield of Deflection, for example - not only are they elite, but they're so bloody expensive that I'm not even really tempted to use 'em. Shield of Regen is mediocre at 15/1, and Shield of Deflection was decent but unspectacular once they nerfed it to 10/2 - and then they killed it by making it 15/2. The effects are great but they're just too expensive and slow to really go nuts. Plus, you know, Nature's Renewal.

Cleave is another one of those that is just underpowered right now. When comparing it to Eviscerate the right ratio is 5:8, not 4:7. You need to get adrenaline on the skill, then use it, which drops you back down to 0, making the whole cycle take one more attack than the adrenal cost. So you do the math based on that and Cleave does +5.2 damage per attack while Eviscerate does +5.25 damage per attack at 16 Axe, plux Eviscerate spikes better, plus it plays better with other adrenal skills, plus it adds Deep Wound - I'd rather run 2x Eviscerate than an Eviscerate and a Cleave, because Cleave is that much worse.

Then there's the stuff that isn't really bad, but doesn't really have a use right now. I'm looking at Flourish. If there were a bunch of good energy based attacks with medium-long cooldowns that you'd want to spam, Flourish would simply be awesome. Those don't exist, though, and if you use Flourish you're trying to time it to actually make it recharge skills, often when they have one second left...it's not a bad effect, the skills just don't exist for it yet.

Warrior's Endurance has a great effect, too, giving a Warrior a ton of energy. Trouble is, of course, that there aren't a lot of energy skills that you want to put on a Warrior, and stopping to cast spells interferes with the strength of Warrior's Endurance. The bigger problem is that Warrior's Endurance has a downtime, so if you do build that energy-based character you're going to have 10-15 seconds when you simply can't do much. I still really don't know what to make of this skill.

Of course there are always a few skills that are simply utter shit and there's not much you can do about them. I'm looking at Keystone Signet, Mind Freeze, and Unyielding Aura. Most 'bad' elites are simply mediocre when the standard is so high for a skill you only get one of, but these three skills are so bad it's embarassing.

Peace,
-CxE

Zelnox · Aug 18, 2005, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Shield of Deflection: I'd use this on focused allies. It has a very nice cooldown, but its 2 seconds cast time is hard to swallow with Nature's Renewal in play. So, Shield of Regeneration for me.

Mind Burn: I only find this useful if one were to spread its lengthy On Fire condition. Incendiary Bonds is a hex that takes 2 seconds (tough with Nature's Renewal in play).

Mind Shock: I'd use this if there were another aeromancer in the party using Lightning Surge. Mind Shock is also nice for its cast speed. Lightning Orb can miss. Chain Lightning would probably have been used at this point already and awaiting recharge. Still, one needs more energy for the knockdown.

Practiced Stance: I often use this in PvE when I rush some friends. Hehe. I needed a stance for my bow anyway.

Punishing Shot: I love this skill when using an interruption configuration. I would use this with Savage Shot and Distracting Shot and Debilitating Shot. Then you can save Distracting Shot for more important skills, while you interrupt the rest with this.

Cleave: It is nice for the low-adrenaline requirement. I would alternate this with Penetrating Blow. With For Great Justice, is that after every two hits? Even better with an attack speed modifier.

Eonwe · Aug 18, 2005, 08:56 PM // 20:56

I would have to agree with that list

. Also kind of funny you did all those calculations ZD, and they're wrong

.

Scaphism · Aug 18, 2005, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Unfortunately a list of bad elites is fairly pointless, except as a point of discussion.

Since you can only have one on your bar at a time, you're really looking for a list of the best of the best.
It's like looking at the roster for an all-star team with 90 people on it, but you can only play 8 of them at once, and you've decided to focus on the 10 worst guys on the team.

Because really, that's what an elite is supposed to be. It's your all-star skill. Why would they be GOLD and RARE otherwise?

Seriously though, the bad ones should never see the light of day- you probably never get past #20 on the list, unless you're looking at a niche build.

PVE considerations aside, but it shouldn't require a ton of effort and strategic innovation to make a build work in PVE.

Aug 18, 2005, 10:34 PM // 22:34

out of the 91 or so elites in the game, only about 20 really matter

Howling Wind · Aug 18, 2005, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Some of the bad elites are the ones that can be sort of replaced by normal skills but although some are bad, they have their good uses on conditional times.

Some of the skills in your list aren't bad, I can understand if your relating it only to PvP but what skills may not be too usefull in PvP could be equally great for PvE like healing hands, most farming builds center around that.

Tuna · Aug 18, 2005, 11:06 PM // 23:06

When doing cleave/evisc comparisons its probably important to factor in strength bonuses. I wouldn't agree with factoring in other skills etc. though.

Ollj · Aug 18, 2005, 11:12 PM // 23:12

i am not wasating my time to prove Meeker wrong.
Its easy enogh to let it be done by others...

Mhydrian · Aug 18, 2005, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Cleave + Tiger fury is massive DPS. Eviscerate is a much better spike damage finisher. It depends on what you want to do.

BigTru · Aug 18, 2005, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meeker

Necromancer:
Aura of the Lich(this is a liability as all the degen that is common in PvP will kill you even faster)

It's good if you are using a Dark Aura build because it makes sacrificial skills cost 1/4th of the original health cost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meeker

Ranger:
Ferocious Strike(ha!)

Ha, the best Ranger energy management skill, and it has pretty good damage boost. Useless? Ha, No.

FiveDisgruntledMonkeys · Aug 19, 2005, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Warrior's Endurance has it's uses, but not on your Wa/Mo clone #469.
Think.

ComMan · Aug 19, 2005, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTru

Ha, the best Ranger energy management skill, and it has pretty good damage boost. Useless? Ha, No.

Marksman's Wager?

+25 damage / 8 seconds = 3 dps. That's on a caster. That totally owns Melandru's Arrows +25 damage a shot and bleeding.

Also, it requires you to have a pet, which is the equivilant of a warrior skills requiring you to not have armor.

Scaphism · Aug 19, 2005, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mhydrian

Cleave + Tiger fury is massive DPS. Eviscerate is a much better spike damage finisher. It depends on what you want to do.

Sure, if what you want to do is worse sustained + spike damage, grab cleave.
While I'm here maybe someone can shed some light on why I keep seeing the over-used rationalization: "It depends on the build." It's repeated even when an objective numerical analysis is done showing the exact opposite, and I can't understand how the ignorance persists. We're doing our best to educate people here; try opening yourself up to learning about the game while you're here.
There is a clear winner in this situation. See above for the data. If some particular point is unclear to you (e.g. how the data was obtained), please feel free to ask. Stop the blythe rationalizations of bad skill choices.

*Edit*

Quote:

Marksman's Wager?

+25 damage / 8 seconds = 3 dps. That's on a caster. That totally owns Melandru's Arrows +25 damage a shot and bleeding.

Also, it requires you to have a pet, which is the equivalent of a warrior skills requiring you to not have armor.

The energy gain from ferocious strike is quite good at high levels of beast mastery, and doesn't run the risk of costing you 10 energy every time you miss.
The damage on ferocious strike is fine- in fact Pet Attacks are better than their weapon line equivalents across the board.
Don't forget that in addition to Ferocious Strike you can use a Prep and your Power attack of choice (penetrating, dual, hunter's, etc..).

No, I'd say Ferocious Strike is a great elite that just hasn't seen its time yet. If the developers improved Pet controls and the removal of Charm Animal's dead space it would open a lot of people's eyes- at least the people paying attention.

The problem with Marksman's Wager is that you NEED to be invested heavily in another line to expend your energy in a hurry. You'll be over-full if you try using it to fuel your ranger attacks, but you can't go nuts and use it on elementalist attacks either.

Howling Wind · Aug 19, 2005, 12:23 AM // 00:23

For axe spike dmg, its always been executioners strike + evisecrate for me.

Also don't fancy Ferocious Strike as the best energy management skill, its pretty crazy taking a pet into tombs these days....

Aug 19, 2005, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComMan

Marksman's Wager?

+25 damage / 8 seconds = 3 dps. That's on a caster. That totally owns Melandru's Arrows +25 damage a shot and bleeding.

You were being sarcastic right

Kelven Novahart · Aug 19, 2005, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Aye the only time I really enjoyed Mind burn was when I captured it, because at the time I also had Glyph of Energy (prevents exhaustion) and Arcane Echo. With both elites on the tool bar and Arcane Echo mind burn was ALOT of fun. Too much so and that is probably why its an elite

Arcador · Aug 19, 2005, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Aeero is right. But sure there are some elite skills that even I cannot combine that way so to take their best effect (compared to other skills).

Anyway there are some skills that are A LOT better for non primary class than their primary. Keep that in mind while reading them - and imagine that skill at other classes. For example (this is non elite skill) - Fear me. You can put it in most classes if you have free slot and since the skill is shout and cost adrenaline (your only adrenal skill) you can pump it for free in the battle and all nearby enemies will be hindered for little.

1) About the skill escape - it is dodge and run skill in 1. Good for relic runner and not only. Great retreatment skill vs physical/melee dealers. Many warriors use some skills that are good when you run or move and if you begin running they will activate them - and give you much dmg and knockdown, but they do not have "awlays hit" prefix, so you might run succesfully. Also sometimes they activate unblockable/evedable skills but you can run with this skill again, since they will have to activate their run skill to keep up. Also 15 secs duration is not that little.

The only drawback escape has is 1) it is elite and many people LOVE to have dmg elites or similar than "pasive elites" 2) as every run/defense skill this has 60 secs cooldown.

2) Punishing shot is a little upgraded power shot. It is not useless, but most of the original builds have other elite on it's place. With other interupting skills it can deliver some hindering in a row + delivering dmg as one dude said above.

3) Practiced stance biggest benefit is with Choking gas. WIth other stances is ~40% of that.

4) Crippling shot is usefull if don't have much marksmanship since it is always maxed.
5) Melandru's reseliance is very usefull skill, just not one of those "pump and kill".
6) Ferociuous strike is the best pet attack there is, also good with warrior/ranger since it pumps adrenalin up.