Curse

Align · Nov 09, 2005, 09:23 PM // 21:23

/me throws a rock
I'll have you know I've never scammed someone who didn't know better, even when they should have.
Dyes are special though, because all signs point to them being worthless until you first speak with a Dye Trader. So it's not their own fault, see, it's because the game is lacking that one little feature, such as a dye trader in ascalon city, that they are being scammed. That, and the fact that some people lack morals.

aron searle · Nov 09, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

- How long does it take a newbie character to earn 500 gold? Probably an hour or so in pre-searing. (Items just aren't worth very much there.)

- How long does it take an experienced character to earn 5000 gold? Probably an hour or so in post-searing. (That's how long it takes me. I dunno about the rest of you.)

True, but what has that got to do with scamming (ish) newbies?

Quote:

Let he or she who is without sin cast the first stone. (What's this? I don't see any rocks flying.)

Throws stone :P

Argentus · Nov 09, 2005, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Again, you are passing judgement. And you people are splitting hairs as well.

Why is it only ok to make a profit off someone who knows exactly what is going on, and somehow immoral to make a profit off of an ignorant person? This happens constantly in the real world. Somehow you people feel that things are different in a video game?

I smell hypocrisy.

Argentus · Nov 09, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Aron,

500 gold in pre vs 5000 gold in post. Money now or money later. Either way, it takes roughly the same amount of effort to earn it the old fashioned way depending on where you are in the game. Now whether a player knows the value of black dye or not, they still got what seemed like a good deal at the time, otherwise they wouldn't have agreed to the trade in the first place. So what's the big deal?

If you sell your black dye in pre-searing for 500 gold and find out later you could have gotten 5000 if you had waited, so what? I can just go earn that 5000 gold by adventuring now that I'm in post and I don't have to look back at my past mistake and curse the name of that 'scammer' who tricked me into selling my precious commodity for pennies instead of dollars.

Why are you blaming these people? Is it their fault for taking advantage of a business opportunity, or is it the fault of the people who created this opportunity in the first place?

snapp · Nov 09, 2005, 09:50 PM // 21:50

yeah it's also hypocrytical to be against MURDER in the real world then get on GW and PVP and kill your opponents right?

of course things are different in video games, this isn't a paint store, if it was as hard for home depot to get black paint as it is to get a black dye drop you can be sure black paint would cost a lot more.

The point is these newbies are being scammed and it is wrong, thats not to say it isn't going to happen anyway, but trying to justify it as being similiar to the real world is a worthless argument. I have a friend that played his first char and picked up a black, he saw it was worth 1 gold and dropped it on his next mission to make room for something else. The ignorance is the problem and Anet should come up with a way to inform the ignorant.

Sofonisba · Nov 09, 2005, 09:51 PM // 21:51

/throws stone

I never trade with real people, but I have been known to give stuff away from time to time. "Free" is a hard concept for some people to grasp, so occasionally they will have offered something in return for what I'm trying to get rid of. I'll cancel the transaction, reiterate "free" and open the trade window again... *gasp* even if it would have benefited me financially *gasp*.

Many of you think it's about the dyes. Or the money. You are dead WRONG. It's about sort of an abstract concept: It's about being an a-hole vs being halfway decent. Whichever you choose to be, up to you of course.

AncientPC · Nov 09, 2005, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

And like I said, their is a difference between being new and being stupid, or maybe you just like to feel false sense of superiorority?

You're correct, there is a difference.

New players should take it upon themselves to find the true value of items. A person who doesn't and trades stuff away is stupid.

Here's an example, I meet Bob in a card shop who bought a pack of baseball cards. I buy a card off of him for $5, turn right around and sell it for $100. It is neither my responsibility nor the shop owner's to tell the Bob how much the card is worth.

You're blaming the buyers when you should be blaming the sellers for their own stupidity.

It is not A.net's (or the government's) job to correct people of their own ignorance.

Epinephrine · Nov 09, 2005, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Seems like weak justifications for the dye trade.

Quote:

Why is it only ok to make a profit off someone who knows exactly what is going on, and somehow immoral to make a profit off of an ignorant person? This happens constantly in the real world. Somehow you people feel that things are different in a video game?

It's immoral in both worlds. We have a way to act against it here, while it's much aharder to in real life. I can't just put a fairness trader in downtown New York to fix the corruption, but I can sure as heck as for one in GW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AncientPC

You're correct, there is a difference.

New players should take it upon themselves to find the true value of items. A person who doesn't and trades stuff away is stupid.

They think they have the value - the game has merchants, who offer more for better items. This leads them to believe the item has no value, since the experience that they have suggests that there is a correlation between an item' value and the merchant price. ANet's system almost deliberately robs them, by misinforming them of the value while more correctly indicating a value for othe objects. Once that system has developed some trust (a better sword sells for more) the one gold for the dye is an obvious signal of its lack of value.

AncientPC · Nov 09, 2005, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Seems like weak justifications for the dye trade.

It's immoral in both worlds. We have a way to act against it here, while it's much aharder to in real life. I can't just put a fairness trader in downtown New York to fix the corruption, but I can sure as heck as for one in GW.

Making money off ignorant people is how our society works, it is not immoral. Everytime I walk in to Best Buy, I think how stupid it is for someone to pay the tech department $100 to install a hard drive on a computer--a process that takes 15 minutes.

But you know what? They're not paying only for the installation, they're paying for the knowledge of those employees. If they weren't ignorant to how a computer works, they'd save the money by doing it themselves.

Information is money, and those who choose not to do research by themselves have no one else to blame.

If a guy walks into a dealership and buys a car for $25,000 that he could've gotten for $20,000 elsewhere, is it the dealership's fault? No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

They think they have the value - the game has merchants, who offer more for better items. This leads them to believe the item has no value, since the experience that they have suggests that there is a correlation between an item' value and the merchant price. ANet's system almost deliberately robs them, by misinforming them of the value while more correctly indicating a value for othe objects. Once that system has developed some trust (a better sword sells for more) the one gold for the dye is an obvious signal of its lack of value.

Merchants do not reflect the accurate value of an item and they never will (because of flavor of the month, individual dependent, etc).

Even in pre-searing there are people buying leather belts or whatever for higher than merchant price, and they should make that correlation to dyes. Or maybe they don't know and sell for 200g. Either way, tough luck.

aron searle · Nov 09, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

New players should take it upon themselves to find the true value of items. A person who doesn't and trades stuff away is stupid.

Not really.

This is a game, some people treat it as such and so do not spend time researching something before they do it, but instead trust what they see or the person they are trading with.

This does NOT make them stupid, just makes them different from you.

Calling people stupid because they dont play your way is immature.

AncientPC · Nov 09, 2005, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

Not really.

This is a game, some people treat it as such and so do not spend time researching something before they do it, but instead trust what they see or the person they are trading with.

This does NOT make them stupid, just makes them different from you.

Calling people stupid because they dont play your way is immature.

Lemme reduce this argument into a single belief:
I do not respect people who expect help from others, and then complain when they don't receive any.

This applies to both the real world and the virtual world.

By the way, using the "it's just a game" reasoning is not a valid argument. I can argue the same thing for the other side: It's just a game, who cares if they get ripped off some virtual money.

Calling someone stupid because they're stupid is not immature, it is a statement. Immaturity implies an undeveloped thought and my arguments have been better argued throughout this topic.

pyrohex · Nov 09, 2005, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Maybe everything in the world should operate on American prices and American currency. That way, everyone gets the same price - whether they live in Africa, or China, or the US, and no one gets ripped off.

/sarcasm

Whether you support, condemn, or indifferent doesn't matter. Rhetoric and moralizing on a forum won't do much to help those poor victims of fraud. Get off your ass and do something, if you hate it so much. If you support it, or don't care - well, do whatever.

My God, think of all the noobs suffering as you reply!

Sofonisba · Nov 09, 2005, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Then lengths people go to, to justify their greed.

There ARE laws in real life which apply here.

Gas stations still have buyers when they are blatantly price gouging; does that make it right? Or legal? Or is it just business, and bully for them?

You are wearing a nice ring you inherited from Great Aunt Myrtle. You say, "Meh, I like this ring but I don't really need it." A man overhears you, walks up to you and says, "What a nice piece of cut glass, can I have it? I'll give you $25 for your trouble."

"Wow," you think, "I'll never have this chance again." It turns out he's a diamond dealer, it's a flawless diamond and the dealer can now retire. Right? Legal? Just business?

***
pyrohex: Why discuss anything on a forum? Why are you here, if your opinion doesn't matter?

AncientPC · Nov 09, 2005, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sofonisba

Then lengths people go to, to justify their greed.

Greed is the basic human trait that drives capitalism.

Quote:

There ARE laws in real life which apply here.

All in game "laws" are stated right here:
http://www.guildwars.com/legal/

Quote:

Gas stations still have buyers when they are blatantly price gouging; does that make it right? Or legal? Or is it just business, and bully for them?

Regulated industry. Gas is necessary for our real life economy, dyes are not necessary for in game economy.

Quote:

You are wearing a nice ring you inherited from Great Aunt Myrtle. You say, "Meh, I like this ring but I don't really need it." A man overhears you, walks up to you and says, "What a nice piece of cut glass, can I have it? I'll give you $25 for your trouble."

"Wow," you think, "I'll never have this chance again." It turns out he's a diamond dealer, it's a flawless diamond and the dealer can now retire. Right? Legal? Just business?

Completely legal.

pyrohex · Nov 09, 2005, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sofonisba

pyrohex: Why discuss anything on a forum? Why are you here, if your opinion doesn't matter?

I think you'll notice that my statement is not universal - it's specifically for this thread. The extent of this thread's substance is to call attention to the matter, and nothing more. What happens - new players being told they can get 7k for their black dyes in post searing - or not, depends on what you do after reading what you've seen here.

If you suggest that the practice is so despicable, go do something about it. Sitting in the forum arguing whether the practice is justified or not won't do a thing. Hate it? Spread the word.

Don't preach to me, or anyone else if you won't get down in the dirt yourself.

Allow me to indulge myself, and quote here part of my previous post:

Quote:

My God, think of all the noobs suffering as you reply!

aron searle · Nov 09, 2005, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Making money off ignorant people is how our society works, it is not immoral. Everytime I walk in to Best Buy, I think how stupid it is for someone to pay the tech department $100 to install a hard drive on a computer--a process that takes 15 minutes.

Well then the problem is your attitude.

You think its ok to call people stupid becasue they dont do it your way.

Sofonisba · Nov 09, 2005, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by pyrohex

If you suggest that the practice is so despicable, go do something about it. Sitting in the forum arguing whether the practice is justified or not won't do a thing. Hate it? Spread the word.

Don't preach to me, or anyone else if you won't get down in the dirt yourself.

I give up. People who use the "capitalism" buzzword to weasel out of being a human being with ethics, there's no talking to them.

pyrohex, thanks for paying attention. I did state when I was in presearing I would try and prevent these types of scam. This is the proper forum to discuss this issue; how else will the "noobs" do their "research" to become informed consumers, unless we keep bumping this thread?

AncientPC · Nov 09, 2005, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

Well then the problem is your attitude.

You think its ok to call people stupid becasue they dont do it your way.

Apparently calling people stupid offends you, whoop dee do. Good job on side stepping my arguments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sofonisba

I give up. People who use the "capitalism" buzzword to weasel out of being a human being with ethics, there's no talking to them.

Humans are inherently evil, and thus have no ethics. That is why we have government and laws. Captialism is merely using greed as a driving force and that is not a bad thing (when held in check).

Have you ever visited a socialist country? Do you realise how inefficient and unmotivated workers are when they have nothing to gain by working harder?

Quote:

pyrohex, thanks for paying attention. I did state when I was in presearing I would try and prevent these types of scam. This is the proper forum to discuss this issue; how else will the "noobs" do their "research" to become informed consumers, unless we keep bumping this thread?

I applaud your sentiment and effort, you're doing a good thing. However I believe such actions merely teach people to become even more dependent on others rather than self-reliance.

Don Zardeone · Nov 09, 2005, 11:48 PM // 23:48

This is interesting and boring at the same time. Imo, it is ok to do that "scam", but only in gw. I myself wouldn't do it, I'd be informing noobs. Still, if newcomers knew that a black dye can sell for 7500g...

Vial of dye (black) drops for Newcomer Jake!
Newcomer Jake: WOOOOT 7500g WOOOT!!!!!!
Newcomer Barney: WTF I KILLED THAT MONSTER!!!! NO FAIR
Newcomer Jake: well it dropped for me, i'm stinkin rich now, bye rofl
Newcomer Barney: grrrrr, HACKER
Newcomer Jake: sorry i don't waste my time with the common folk...
Newcomer Jake shoos you away
Newcomer Jake starts dancing
General chat Newcomer Barney: JAKE IS HACKR, BAN JAKE, HAKKKK!!!! (spammedx50)

You really want to let newcomers know that other newcomers can get "rich" by being lucky? (7K is filthy rich to a real noob)

What if someone isn't lucky and keeps getting drops worth 1-6 gold? He'll be pissed when he sees others getting black dyes. Especially if those people are in his party...

In many mmorpgs (don't care if anyone says that gw is not mmorpg) I've seen many people quit simply because someone else stole their drop. I myself once almost quit too but continued playing because my guildleader told me that it wasn't a big deal after all... but I had a guildleader, many players don't have anyone.

If Anet wants to lose players and real money, they'll put a dye trader in pre...

Also, imo, effort should be rewarded, not luck. In fact, there is no luck, there is only the force. But some are gifted with the force and others are not. Is it then fair to allow some to get really "rich" while others have to find and sell at least 1000 lowtech items to make the same money?

Removing black dyes and runes from pre might be better then X.x

Don't say i'm stupid, I already know that

chris_nin00 · Nov 09, 2005, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Like they always say....
You're not scamming if the scammed don't know about it.

Or
You're not scammed if you don't know the scammer was scamming you.

Enough words for today... I know its too much for you guys.