Curse

calamitykell · Nov 13, 2005, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

*snip*

Nicely said. Calm, polite, and suggestive. I give you... a chocolate chip cookie.

calamitykell · Nov 13, 2005, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by id0l

It's "buggered" mesmers (they have AoE you know), possibly necro's (Wells, other skills that target multiple enemies; although I can't confirm as I just started a necro), Rangers (Ignite Arrows, and yes traps are screwed), Water ele AoE, and I think Air Ele might have some AoE skills as well.

It screwed up alot more than you think.

Hmm, I don't think so.

Mesmer AoE skills: Chaos Storm. Yeah, Mesmers are really hit hard by this update.

Necro: I'm unsure how wells are affected myself, so I cannot agree or disagree.

Rangers: I've seen a lot of posts in this thread say Ignite Arrows is not affected. Traps are? That should be fixed. As I understand the wording, they avoid AoE Spells. Cyclone Axe, Traps, Ignite Arrows are not spells.

Water Ele: lol, just about every Water AoE is a cripple/snare. Water Ele's aren't affected by this. What are the monsters going to do? Run from a Deep Freeze? GOOD LUCK, lol

Air Ele: The only Air AoE I know of by memory (never played Air) is Whirlwind. Which is a PBAoE KD (Point-Blank Area of Effect Knockdown.) Are they going to run away while they're knocked down?

So no, it didn't screw up a lot more than I think. I know how some things work.

I will wait for verification on Necro Wells, though.

edit: I'm off to bed. To all those whom agree/disagree with my point of view, have a good night. There's no personal angst on my part <3 (just knee-jerk reactions, heh, sorry

)

Adraeus · Nov 13, 2005, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Hrm, I discontinued playing Guild Wars slightly before the guild of 100 or so members that I was in moved to another game, due to boredom. There are many other former players who quit Guild Wars for similar reasons. What ArenaNet seems to be doing is trying to entice formers players to return and to keep players playing. I'm all for that since I still have Guild Wars installed and ready-to-go, but I don't expect this game to be fun again soon.

Grammar · Nov 13, 2005, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Banebow's comments bring up an interesting question:

Do monsters still preemtively flee from one-shot AOEs (like Fireball)?

I know they did when the update was first implemented, but Banebow makes it sound like maybe ANet has scaled that back a bit.

FeuerFrei · Nov 13, 2005, 08:22 AM // 08:22

wow...4 days and 63 pages alr...

Quote:" well, i read gaile's statement..it sounds reasonable to me..but at least it might good to put in some delay before the monster runs off when they are being nuked??? "

Isnt there a delay implemented alr in the Nov 11th update...its about 1 - 2 secs, when they get hit...not very sure

nimloth32 · Nov 13, 2005, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memphis

Hey if you enjoy playing missions over and over again because another player gets your team killed, you're a damn sight more patient than many of us are.
A great number of PUGS even as far as Thunderhead Keep still haven't gotten to grips with calling targets yet.

I agree with you. Guild Wars gameplay is not easy to adapt to. I know that repeating a mission will eventually get you accustomed to the gameplay. However, for some impatient players, it will kill them because imagine if i spends 2~5 hours repeating thunderhead keep 10 times, i will really get frustrated. Implementation of teamplay is good in this game. However, over stressing it will kill the game. Anet should consider that the players come from all over the world and for those players, communcation is a problem that leads to problem in teamplay. As a result, the leader of the team might not give an instruction to the team member in time when a situation occurs. Hence, increasing monster AI even worsen the situation especially for the noobs. Anet should consider that without new players there are no Guild Wars. Players take time to adapt to gameplay. If a new player has to repeat a mission/quest several times even at presear, he/she will probably quit the game in frustration and hence get a bad impression of it. This will bring negative publicity to the game. I would prefer Guild Wars to be a game that is easily adapt to and fun to play. Call me a noob if you want.

Even there is a delay, it is not yet effective enough for a AoE spell to work yet.

Lugosi · Nov 13, 2005, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

this game has a directional goal. when the invisimonk came it destroyed everything they had planned. now they had to focus on fixing a huge problem that many people liked. so do you let it slide and let the problem eventually kill the game before its time or do you fix it and piss some or majority of you players off?

The way I see it at the moment is, that the invisimonk was a major problem because he was a farming build, so farming was the problem.
Why was it a problem? Because it would cause prices to skyrocket.
But why would prices skyrocket? In my opinion because of the introduction of traders who base their stock on the supply from players, who sold their drops to them (runes/dyes/etc).

Now you say that this was needed for a balanced economy, sort of "you can only get out what you put in". But then again, the drops that players get in the explorable areas or missions seem to come out of nowhere too, there wasn't another player who put an armor with a superior rune inside of the chest before you opened it.

What I'm trying to say is: If the traders had sold their items at a fixed price, with an unlimited storage (mabe the one where all the drops come from anyway?) the problem of farmers wouldn't have been such a big problem, especially if each player really has the same chances to get the drops he needs without having to go out farming by himself for an eternity.
"The farmer wants 90k for a superior absorption? Well look, the trader offers it for 10k only, as usual".
or
"The farmer wants 40k for a superior vigor? Over the last two missions 5 out of our 8-man team got one - 40k is ridiculous"
But that's just how I see it, which could of course be wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

i'm happy they took a stand. before now they have been bending to the player's will and now they are trying to get back on track with orginal goal. only the devs know what that is and for us to find out later. one thing i really love is they not only say no they enforce it unlike other games have (D2).

I wouldn't really call the "nerf this" and "nerf that" that was going on before this update "bending to the players". But if, as you wrote, the Invisimonk already was a "problem" three weeks after release, and if, as Gaile wrote, the AI was too stupid from the start, they shouldn't have "danced around the hot pudding" for 7 months. They've been aware of these problems all the time, yet failed to give the player-base any hint that the way they were playing the game was sooner or later to be obsolete by finally addressing some issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

play the game and enjoy it. if you don't enjoy it give it a break for a while and come back. if you don't want to come back you can always sell your account for time spent and give someone else a shot at the game.

Trust me, I'm trying to enjoy it.
I'm not directly hit by the update, but a lot of the friends that I play with are. Friends who also don't farm, who just recently started to play, and who (their luck) picked to be the now so infamous fire-elementalist, now more or less stuck somewhere in a later mission because nobody wants them in a party anymore.

Grammar · Nov 13, 2005, 08:28 AM // 08:28

I've got the same question as FeuerFrei.

ANet further tweaked the monster and henchie AI on the 11th after changing it on the 10th.

Anyone know exactly what was tweaked on the 11th?

Aeon_Xin · Nov 13, 2005, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

ok I've calmed down from my last post and well I've relized why people are so mad at this update.

Farming was one of the only money makers that each profession had a version of (yes I HAVE seen one for each profession) solo farming. People are mad because something that they have depended on to get gold is now gone

.

This may set a chain reaction that may hurt the Guild Wars Community.

Loss of Farming---> Less Money for Runners and increase in difficulty to sell weapons---> Decrease in Chapter 2 Buyers due to members thinking too hard to get gold----> Decrease in Anet Funds---> Sale un-avaible to cover cost of server maintainment cost---> Servers in Guild Wars being shutdown leaving the shutdown of Guild Wars Forever

Sure step 3 and beyond may be a bit exagerated but certainly Step 2 is definitely going to happen.

Anet Plz give us back farming or give us something to get money by.

I think you got it perfect, perfectly backwards.

Economics.
Farming = more money.

More money = less value.(more coins to do same thing)
More money again = lesser value.
Repeat untill you reach present day.

EAsier running, = less challenge = less runners needed(or more runners working, either way) = cheaper travel.
____________
Items.
Items are a diffeerent problem altogether.
Due to advancement in story line, going to ascalon and being with noobs is nearing time travel.
That is one problem the game kinda let slip past.
Maybe split it up a little more like the searing did. Let characters move back and forth, to help level, do missed quests, but only merchant in their current far reaching major town.

The money making on items is people that sell them to people that can't yet get them. If you restrict weapon sales as stated above, why buy it when you can go farm/collector/craft one that you can build yourself for use to get by with untill you find that fancy schmancy gold one.

That would limit weapon buying on ebay quite well, and ensure players advance at a more even speed.

Anyone buying ebay coins would soon find themselves with more money than they could possibly need that early. Like having it presearing.

Fantus · Nov 13, 2005, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

Ok then, so you obviously have no idea about economics. More money in the system = inflation. People solo-ing high level areas brings more gold into the economy.

And YOUR little mistake is to look exclusively on the money market when making that statement. Which is why I think it's clueless. Hint: There is a goods market in GW, too (actually, more than one). Another hint: Farmers do increase supply with that they do. An increase in supply means that prices are going DOWN and not up.

Some evidence: The Ecto price DOUBLED since Anet was halfway successful in making UW soloing less effective than it was before. The SHARD prices remained almost constant. Funny, isn't it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

If people were in a group, that money is shared, and inflation is slower (since individual buying power increases slower). If many people are solo-ing, individual buying power increases quickly and rapid inflation results.

Nope. Farming drives up the demand side (prices would go up) and increases the SUPPLY side as well (prices would go down). You have to look at BOTH effects to judge in the impact on the economy. The total effect of farming on prices is somewhat neutral, probably. At least economics is way more complicated then your oversimplified post would indicate.

Mimi Miyagi · Nov 13, 2005, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

Hmm, I don't think so.

Mesmer AoE skills: Chaos Storm. Yeah, Mesmers are really hit hard by this update.

Necro: I'm unsure how wells are affected myself, so I cannot agree or disagree.

Rangers: I've seen a lot of posts in this thread say Ignite Arrows is not affected. Traps are? That should be fixed. As I understand the wording, they avoid AoE Spells. Cyclone Axe, Traps, Ignite Arrows are not spells.

Water Ele: lol, just about every Water AoE is a cripple/snare. Water Ele's aren't affected by this. What are the monsters going to do? Run from a Deep Freeze? GOOD LUCK, lol

Air Ele: The only Air AoE I know of by memory (never played Air) is Whirlwind. Which is a PBAoE KD (Point-Blank Area of Effect Knockdown.) Are they going to run away while they're knocked down?

So no, it didn't screw up a lot more than I think. I know how some things work.

I will wait for verification on Necro Wells, though.

edit: I'm off to bed. To all those whom agree/disagree with my point of view, have a good night. There's no personal angst on my part <3 (just knee-jerk reactions, heh, sorry

)

It's not *just* specific skills being nerfed that have caused problems. The game is designed for elementalists to do the heavy damage that warriors and rangers can't generate on their own. Once you bork a major part of the gameplay by neutering an entire skill line, then the whole thing is whacked.

In that wonderful aspect of "balance" that everyone keeps harping about, ANet just unbalanced it in hopes of screwing over the solo farmers. Ummm...good job?

nimloth32 · Nov 13, 2005, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adraeus

Hrm, I discontinued playing Guild Wars slightly before the guild of 100 or so members that I was in moved to another game, due to boredom. There are many other former players who quit Guild Wars for similar reasons. What ArenaNet seems to be doing is trying to entice formers players to return and to keep players playing. I'm all for that since I still have Guild Wars installed and ready-to-go, but I don't expect this game to be fun again soon.

I think nerfing is not a good way to get the old players back. Increased content is one of good alternative like number of maps. If you nerf, you might not get the old players and has a higher risk to lose more players PERMANENTLY. sorry for double post.

Lugosi · Nov 13, 2005, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

Ok, I'll start with the economy. It's messed up. Big time. And the game has only been out for 6 months. Why? Because of the Invinci-monk and solo-ing. The fact that it's messed up isn't something players need to complain about. ANet watch and can see it.

Ok, while you typed this I already wrote something else, stating my point of view on the economy-problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

Because solo-ing is so rampant, bots have hit hard. Another thing ANet is watching.

Lastly, AI. Everyone has complained about henchie AI from day 1. Many people have said the PvE game is too easy. Since I'm sure henchies and monsters are using the same AI engine/rules, an increase in the AI for one crosses over to the other. The result is that henchies finally get out of AoE, and so do the monsters. Gaile hints at other AI fixes coming, and I'm pleased to hear it. Maybe next Alesia will remember she's a healing monk.

Which makes me wonder if there is really no way for ANet to implement a routine that checks if some bot-program is playing the game or actually a real player with his mouse and his keyboard.

The henchmen...yes, I wrote something about how they need to "adapt" earlier, talking about the Ele-henchman and the Mesmer.
I also stated in an earlier post how in my opinion the complaints about the game being "too easy" more than likely came up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

People hate change. Always have, always will, even if ultimately they will benefit from it.

...which I still have to see with the recent changes.

nimloth32 · Nov 13, 2005, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

I've got the same question as FeuerFrei.

ANet further tweaked the monster and henchie AI on the 11th after changing it on the 10th.

Anyone know exactly what was tweaked on the 11th?

There is suppose to a delay in the time monster running off and when a spell is casted.

Aeon_Xin · Nov 13, 2005, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

It's not *just* specific skills being nerfed that have caused problems. The game is designed for elementalists to do the heavy damage that warriors and rangers can't generate on their own. Once you bork a major part of the gameplay by neutering an entire skill line, then the whole thing is whacked.

In that wonderful aspect of "balance" that everyone keeps harping about, ANet just unbalanced it in hopes of screwing over the solo farmers. Ummm...good job?

There are a plethora of ways to play, not just tank, aoe damage, and healer.
That's early mmorpg teamwork, and GW wants to push the envelope, and stray away from that.

I'm not saying that aoe's shouldn't work, or that this patch was good.
Just saying that GW realized, maybe too late, that it made a game that already existed in ways of fighting, and wants to reverse that so that it's not the same as 20 other games out there, everyone taking the decoy/damage/healer road.

Phoenix Ex · Nov 13, 2005, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Well...what I have observed so far after this update is that groups are even less creative than before. Now instead of "2 warriors, 2 nuker, 2 monks and TWO MORE", it is now "2 warriors, 2 monks and the rest are all damage classes", I don't even see battery necros as much any more as they all switch to minion master or "echo spiteful spirit". I don't see an increase in Earth/Water/Air ele and see a decrease in the ele population in general. Forcing people to change all of a sudden after over 4 months after release obviously ain't going to please alot of people since they spend time creating their characters, especially considering the high number of casual players in this game that don't play alot.

With this update some people are happy, but it also pissed off the players with little time, the hardcore players who spent alot of time to get expensive gears, players who like to watch "firework", alot of henchie users, and lastly farmers. While I don't mind more dynamic AI, they shouldn't have implemented it so late in the game that it screws up the economy (ecto is 16k+ now) and invalidates so many people's time spent on getting gears, skills, and runes.

id0l · Nov 13, 2005, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

Hmm, I don't think so.
Mesmer AoE skills: Chaos Storm. Yeah, Mesmers are really hit hard by this update.

How about Chaos Storm, Energy Surge, Panic, Shatter Hex, Signet of Weariness, and Cry of Frustration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

Rangers: I've seen a lot of posts in this thread say Ignite Arrows is not affected. Traps are? That should be fixed. As I understand the wording, they avoid AoE Spells. Cyclone Axe, Traps, Ignite Arrows are not spells.

Ignite arrows sure was affected, but I don't know if the little "fix" yesterday corrected that or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

Water Ele: lol, just about every Water AoE is a cripple/snare. Water Ele's aren't affected by this. What are the monsters going to do? Run from a Deep Freeze? GOOD LUCK, lol

Air Ele: The only Air AoE I know of by memory (never played Air) is Whirlwind. Which is a PBAoE KD (Point-Blank Area of Effect Knockdown.) Are they going to run away while they're knocked down?

Air: Chain Lightning, Lightning Touch, Thunderclap, and Whirlwind.
Earth: Aftershock, Crystal Wave, Earthquake, Eruption, and Grasping Earth.
Water: Deep Freeze, Frozen Burst, and Maelstrom.
Fire: I think you can figure these out.

Regardless if they are slowed or knocked down, it is still AoE and enemies still run like pansies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

So no, it didn't screw up a lot more than I think.

You sure about that now?

I even left out most of the AoE that doesn't inflict direct damage (don't know if these are affected either). Also, some of these I listed may have already been fixed/tweaked so that mobs don't run like pansies from them, but I can't test most of them myself.

Antc · Nov 13, 2005, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Gaile says monsters should have more brains....thats fair enough, but if they're gonna have more brains why do they need 9+ levels and up to 3 times the hit damage as human players?
And i'm so sick of reading posts that say ' if a firestorm was cast on you, would you stand in it?' - the answer to that is YES!! if i'm attacking a monk or an ele in PvP/GvG, providing its not knocking me down i'm gonna kill that person before i have any intention of moving - i can self heal my warrior to an extent, and my monks can top it up, theres no way a firestorm (even one at 18 fire hitting me for 3o+ points each hit) is gonna make me run away unless i'm almost dead!!

Mimi Miyagi · Nov 13, 2005, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin

There are a plethora of ways to play, not just tank, aoe damage, and healer.
That's early mmorpg teamwork, and GW wants to push the envelope, and stray away from that.

I'm not saying that aoe's shouldn't work, or that this patch was good.
Just saying that GW realized, maybe too late, that it made a game that already existed in ways of fighting, and wants to reverse that so that it's not the same as 20 other games out there, everyone taking the decoy/damage/healer road.

Has nothing to do with what I wrote. Game was "balanced" with the status quo - ANet nerfs an entire line of skills rendering them useless, game is no longer "balanced".

If they want to push the envelope, don't create a game with spells called "fireball", professions called "warriors" and clothing called "armor". Go play Anarcy Online, or something.

Phoenix Ex · Nov 13, 2005, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Ya...quite a bit of AOE spells other than all the commonly used ones are affected, even those that are only used because of the effect it cause when monsters stands in it (Maelstrom, Chaos Storm).

Another problem that people don't realize is that the AOE causes the monsters to switch target and potentially go after your monks. Considering in late game the monster are lvl 24+ with extremely high hp ,ridiculous damage and unlimited energy, it get's incredibly difficult to do later missions unless AOE spells are completely ignored. Yes, snares can be used, but chances are these late game monsters are NOT dead when the snare wears off, and still chase the casters. This needs to be balanced for the update to be worthwhile.

This update also causes quite a bit of internal unbalances: balthazar's aua overshadowed by symbol of wrath despite the +20 energy cost, Fireball doing more damage than fire storm for less cast time, less rechange and less energy...etc.