Curse

Gaile Gray · Nov 11, 2005, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon

Bah, people run from AoE's, why shouldn't the mobs, they are just computer controlled people, about time they started showing a little intelligence.

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read the Update Notes as few days ago. How many times have you guys gotten mad at the Henchies? And haven't you felt just a tiny bit cheesy when you cast an AoE Spell like Fire Storm, knowing it that the monsters were going to stand there like lumps, taking it until they died?

"Hey, there, my Charr buddy, did you notice your fur was flaming and your teeth were melting?"

"Why yes, my stalwart comrade, I did note that uncomfortable fact. But you know, I'm just too dense to up and move my furry behind out of this torrential downpour of spells. I think I'll just stay here and expire."

How fun is it? Sort of like taking candy from a baby, isn't it? I never wanted to feel sorry for my enemies; I just wanted to feel powerful when I smited them. So if the monster enemies are actually more on par with a real player, isn't that a good thing? Doesn't that make accomplishments more meaningful?

And for those who are concerned (I won't say "whining" but others have

) about farming, why in Dwayna's name do you think you should be able to solo some of the highest level areas to farm? How realistic is that expectation? I mean, if you could in the past -- and if that wasn't intended or balanced -- does that mean it should be left for players to do so indefinitely? No criticism for farmers, not at all. But in a game built on strategy and teamwork, like Guild Wars, it simply doesn't seem to me that it's reasonable to ask to play the highest end content as a solo player.

In the end, though, my opinions aside, we tested these changes for some time and the consensus was that they were reasonable and fair. We are most definitely listening to all your feedback and will certainly be willing to consider future changes in the interest of game improvement.

Grammar · Nov 11, 2005, 08:09 AM // 08:09

"They'll run fomr ANY AOE damage, from any class, chaos storm, frozen burst, ignite arrows, cyclone axe, B.aura, deathly swarm, any skill that hits more then 1 guy, prolly even hundred blades."

I don't know if that's entirely true.
From my experience, I know they'll definitely run from all AOE spells, and I think traps too.
I'm pretty sure they don't run from cyclone axe (since it's an attack skill and not a spell), and I'm not sure about ignite arrows (a preperation).

If you're right and they do indeed run from all AOE skills and not just AOE spells, then I think they'll only run if it takes more than a second to cast (hence skills like cyclone axe apparently not being affected).

Can anyone say for sure on this?

Jaia Shadowless · Nov 11, 2005, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

It will decrease drammatically because the sweatshop farmer will have to work twice as hard to get the same amount, or more.

So you say, but it's easy enough if you're putting in endless hours with a bot to start a build that's the newest farming FOTM, level it up quickly, and farm more. The average PvE player will probably be less inclined to abandon their beloved characters that they've put hundreds of hours into.

Besides, I think you underestimate how much money there is to be made in the selling-online-items market. They'll find a way to make it profitable.

Magicmaster315 · Nov 11, 2005, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Ok fine if we are gona make them smart, lets have them attack what they need to like have them all attack the Monk 1st and work their way till they finaly get around to killing the warrior last. Come on people really. You cant bring common since into a game considring games arent made to make since. Plus think about all the new players who go to do that fire mission for firespells now where you have to nuke all those earth eles. Impossible now.

Oh plus

Diablo 2
World of warcraft
Final fantasy online
Ultima

Any online game has farmers and none of them have a economy nearly as messed up as Guildwars dose.

Batou of Nine · Nov 11, 2005, 08:13 AM // 08:13

GAILE GRAY has graced us with a response.

Do we dare protest her comments? i for one disagree on many points. I will digress until a later time...

Samueldg · Nov 11, 2005, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaia Shadowless

Bots. Sweatshop farmers. Plus, a lot of it still exists on eBay.

exactly...

anet just made those Violating the eula even more money..

the farmers who enjoyed spending an hour gettin 9k off griffons are now done..

which essentually means that platnum is going to become rare...

take Ecto for example, since solo UW farmers are effectively done ecto will come from groups of trappers more than likely. from my own exp as a trapper in a four man group usually there is 0-3 ecto dropped per run... comparatively there are MUCH less trappers and its much harder to form a group of trappers than say for a solo monk to grab a AOE ele and clear ataxx.. meaning all Ecto will come into the economy MUCH slower... hence its price will rise... because there is still a set price for how many are needed for armor, there is STILL people rich enough to buy it for FOW armor, and there is still ebayers making REAL MONEY for plat...

GJ anet... you make me wanna move to india and set up a comp cafe for a lil ebay farming.. Id probably make a lot better money than owning my own construction company and remodeling houses for a living..

Jakerius · Nov 11, 2005, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Updates can't please everyone, but this sure as hell didn't please many.
Half of my friends are seriously considering quitting because the only characters they liked are the elementalists. One of the gals on my Friends List has 3 elementalists, all level 20 with different attributes in different elements, and she is angry that Elementalists have effectively been nerfed.
Eugh... Now nobody can save me from the eternal torment that is Thirsty River.

Quote:

In the end, though, my opinions aside, we tested these changes for some time and the consensus was that they were reasonable and fair. We are most definitely listening to all your feedback and will certainly be willing to consider future changes in the interest of game improvement.

Consensus from who? The Game Devs, the ones that don't actually have to make their own money, but can in fact generate it out of thin bits?
Precisely... Enjoy the petition with hundreds of thousands of signatures on it coming your way.

PS: It's not so much that I have a problem with you, Gaile, or any of the Anet staff. It just seems obvious that if within minutes of the update, petitions have been signed on hundreds of websites about how you guys have tweaked it just a little bit too far, that you have.

Amused Observer · Nov 11, 2005, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Good or bad, it hardly matters.

This is Arenanet's game and frankly, I see no evidence at all that they will go back on this feature - it is an upgrade to the AI that allows for more tactical and varied gameplay in PvE, which is exactly the sort of thing Guild Wars always promised. More complexity than "Tank, Nuke, Repeat."

So maybe instead of complaining we should, whether we like the change or not, all start thinking of counters.

First off, AoE just became primarily a protection line - dropping a Firestorm or Meteor Shower on a given location will stop monsters from entering or attacking within that location.

Therefore, the key to aggroing monsters onto your tanks is to drop your AoE around the casters until the monsters switch their aggro. Spread them out and keep them scattered long enough for your degen and single-target spikes to drop them, and don't set your AoE anywhere near the tank.

Smiting in particular is now a line Monks can use to avoid aggro and scatter monsters, rather than something they can use to do ridiculous levels of damage. Zealot's Fire or some other self-targeted DoT AoE is now extremely effective both for running and shaking aggro while the party is having trouble staying alive.

Slows and cripples have their place to a degree, especially since most monsters have atrocious removal skills.

Elementalists in general will play more like PvP now, in that they will have to carefully choose their AoE targets in an effort to hit chokepoints and key positions on the battlefield. Other casting classes will have to move into their own groups AoEs without drawing too much aggro or damage from ranged attackers.

One other question - do monsters that are in the process of spellcasting break their spell to move out of an AoE? If so it serves as an awesome way of killing Mahgo Hydras or other creatures that group with long casting times. If not, Fevered Dreams, a Daze skill like Concussion Shot, and a couple quick-casted nukes would probably remain effective, as the Showers would go down while the monsters were casting and then they'd be stuck in the Knockdown chain and unable to flee effectively. It would be difficult to get down right though.

Fevered Dreams in general probably just became among the best forms of AoE damage, along with Barrage. It can spread 10 degen over a group quickly and keep it there.

Good points generally, but I disagree w/ the notion that a longer casting time spell like firestorm serves as a protection line. Anything taking longer than 1 sec to cast makes it impossible to target the "right" mob you want to scatter ASAP.

I'm also curious about the scattering effect on enemy casting. If mobs are required to break their spellcasting to move out of AoE effect, the aoe spells will supplant mesmer interruption spells (i.e. why interrupt one caster than you can interrupt a whole boatload of them?

).

Yes, Fevered Dream can spread degens fast if the mobs cooperate and are near each other. But for my money Spiteful Spirit may be better, damage wise.

Phades · Nov 11, 2005, 08:14 AM // 08:14

I have to feel sorry for gaile gray being up past midnight to casually observe a forum thread regarding a pve change. Especially how in the past, on these same forums, self proclaimed pve only players boasting that they never complain about anything. It is a change in the right direction, even though there are a couple of flaws. Most of those originate around the long cast times of the one shot aoe spells. I am sure phoenix is crying its self to sleep tonight. Other skills just became very exploitable to produce effects that i doubt were intended or even tested with the effect in mind.

Yamat · Nov 11, 2005, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magicmaster315

Oh plus

Diablo 2
World of warcraft
Final fantasy online
Ultima

Any online game has farmers and none of them have a economy nearly as messed up as Guildwars dose.

WHAT?!?! D2 was the ultimate in screwed up economies!! Gold had no value at all!!!

Samueldg · Nov 11, 2005, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

GAILE GRAY has graced us with a response.

Do we dare protest her comments? i for one disagree on many points. I will digress until a later time...

I would but IM waiting til she actually reads all 17 pages

Magicmaster315 · Nov 11, 2005, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Plus what about all these people like me that have been gone and have this stuff stock piled still. I have 20 ectos still and about 500 plat.

ShinJin Kahn · Nov 11, 2005, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

"Hey, there, my Charr buddy, did you notice your fur was flaming and your teeth were melting?"

"Why yes, my stalwart comrade, I did note that uncomfortable fact. But you know, I'm just too dense to up and move my furry behind out of this torrential downpour of spells. I think I'll just stay here and expire."

I do not belive that conversation would have taken place.

I would assume it would go more like

Charr 1: Graaw
Charr 2: Greeaf

Then they would both run off in to the forrest.

If Anet really wanted to make it realistic they would'nt have a group of 5 tengu mopping about on a beach for 5 months waiting for some random band of travelers to come along to attack.

People dont want realistic, they want fun.

Jaia Shadowless · Nov 11, 2005, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Dear Gaile:

I'd agree wholeheartedly if it weren't for the fact that the highest level monsters are more powerful than we players are allowed to be. Also, there are always more of them than there are of us. No one said it wasn't a challenge.

For the record, I don't farm. I can't solo UW or FoW or even the desert. I have a good time running around in Kryta -- that's about it. I guess if I wanted to spend a lot of time minmaxing, I would do beter. That's just not what I'm about. But, in sticking up for the farmers, it's not nice to imply that your customers are whiners.

Batou of Nine · Nov 11, 2005, 08:17 AM // 08:17

^^ funniest post all day! (ShinJin Kahn #414)

thief · Nov 11, 2005, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read the Update Notes as few days ago. How many times have you guys gotten mad at the Henchies? And haven't you felt just a tiny bit cheesy when you cast an AoE Spell like Fire Storm, knowing it that the monsters were going to stand there like lumps, taking it until they died?

"Hey, there, my Charr buddy, did you notice your fur was flaming and your teeth were melting?"

"Why yes, my stalwart comrade, I did note that uncomfortable fact. But you know, I'm just too dense to up and move my furry behind out of this torrential downpour of spells. I think I'll just stay here and expire."

How fun is it? Sort of like taking candy from a baby, isn't it? I never wanted to feel sorry for my enemies; I just wanted to feel powerful when I smited them. So if the monster enemies are actually more on par with a real player, isn't that a good thing? Doesn't that make accomplishments more meaningful?

And for those who are concerned (I won't say "whining" but others have

) about farming, why in Dwayna's name do you think you should be able to solo some of the highest level areas to farm? How realistic is that expectation? I mean, if you could in the past -- and if that wasn't intended or balanced -- does that mean it should be left for players to do so indefinitely? No criticism for farmers, not at all. But in a game built on strategy and teamwork, like Guild Wars, it simply doesn't seem to me that it's reasonable to ask to play the highest end content as a solo player.

In the end, though, my opinions aside, we tested these changes for some time and the consensus was that they were reasonable and fair. We are most definitely listening to all your feedback and will certainly be willing to consider future changes in the interest of game improvement.

"Hey, there, my Charr buddy, did you notice you have backfire on you and when you cast you get hurt FOR A TON OF DAMAGE??"

"Why yes, my stalwart comrade, I did note that uncomfortable fact. But you know, I'm just too dense to stop casting. It just feels soooo good to be damaged this much, considering AOE's no longer work on us anymore."

Great arguement. Let me tell yah.

internetguy · Nov 11, 2005, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read the Update Notes as few days ago. How many times have you guys gotten mad at the Henchies? And haven't you felt just a tiny bit cheesy when you cast an AoE Spell like Fire Storm, knowing it that the monsters were going to stand there like lumps, taking it until they died?

"Hey, there, my Charr buddy, did you notice your fur was flaming and your teeth were melting?"

"Why yes, my stalwart comrade, I did note that uncomfortable fact. But you know, I'm just too dense to up and move my furry behind out of this torrential downpour of spells. I think I'll just stay here and expire."

How fun is it? Sort of like taking candy from a baby, isn't it? I never wanted to feel sorry for my enemies; I just wanted to feel powerful when I smited them. So if the monster enemies are actually more on par with a real player, isn't that a good thing? Doesn't that make accomplishments more meaningful?

And for those who are concerned (I won't say "whining" but others have

) about farming, why in Dwayna's name do you think you should be able to solo some of the highest level areas to farm? How realistic is that expectation? I mean, if you could in the past -- and if that wasn't intended or balanced -- does that mean it should be left for players to do so indefinitely? No criticism for farmers, not at all. But in a game built on strategy and teamwork, like Guild Wars, it simply doesn't seem to me that it's reasonable to ask to play the highest end content as a solo player.

In the end, though, my opinions aside, we tested these changes for some time and the consensus was that they were reasonable and fair. We are most definitely listening to all your feedback and will certainly be willing to consider future changes in the interest of game improvement.

There are only max 8 players on the map, and countless monsters. The only chance players have is their human intelligent.

BTW, before the patch, those mosters are not just standing there, they are after your monks if they have chance. How many time you have seen Alesia dies in the beginning of the battle, even human monks. And sometimes, even your tanks are blocking, they still can "teleport" (bug) beside your monks and kill them.

Scrapper8o · Nov 11, 2005, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read the Update Notes as few days ago. How many times have you guys gotten mad at the Henchies? And haven't you felt just a tiny bit cheesy when you cast an AoE Spell like Fire Storm, knowing it that the monsters were going to stand there like lumps, taking it until they died?

"Hey, there, my Charr buddy, did you notice your fur was flaming and your teeth were melting?"

"Why yes, my stalwart comrade, I did note that uncomfortable fact. But you know, I'm just too dense to up and move my furry behind out of this torrential downpour of spells. I think I'll just stay here and expire."

How fun is it? Sort of like taking candy from a baby, isn't it? I never wanted to feel sorry for my enemies; I just wanted to feel powerful when I smited them. So if the monster enemies are actually more on par with a real player, isn't that a good thing? Doesn't that make accomplishments more meaningful?

And for those who are concerned (I won't say "whining" but others have

) about farming, why in Dwayna's name do you think you should be able to solo some of the highest level areas to farm? How realistic is that expectation? I mean, if you could in the past -- and if that wasn't intended or balanced -- does that mean it should be left for players to do so indefinitely? No criticism for farmers, not at all. But in a game built on strategy and teamwork, like Guild Wars, it simply doesn't seem to me that it's reasonable to ask to play the highest end content as a solo player.

In the end, though, my opinions aside, we tested these changes for some time and the consensus was that they were reasonable and fair. We are most definitely listening to all your feedback and will certainly be willing to consider future changes in the interest of game improvement.

I play Video games for that simplicity. If I wanted PvP action... I would go play PvP. I want the candy from the baby. Call me simplistic, or whatever you will... but I dont LIVE GW. I dont care about the spells i dont use. I dont care about Air, or Earth, or Water. I want to Nuke a stupid computer with some of my friends, or with Henchmen. Now I have to sit and plan my day around their days just so we all can plan an attack and get the mission done. Lost its fun and became work. Time for you to pay me to do this tedius task. Im surly not paying ANet for something that aint fun anymore.

Yamat · Nov 11, 2005, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaia Shadowless

So you say, but it's easy enough if you're putting in endless hours with a bot to start a build that's the newest farming FOTM, level it up quickly, and farm more. The average PvE player will probably be less inclined to abandon their beloved characters that they've put hundreds of hours into.

It's not "so I say", it's what everyone says... not directed at you but all I heard tonight was:

*cry* "farming has been nerfed" *cry*.

If it now takes, say, 3 times as long to get the same amount of gold, the people selling it on ebay now have to charge 2-3 times as much, and less people will be willing to pay it, cause thankfully our real economy isn't quite as screwed up!

Why are you having to abandon a character? I don't understand why people keep saying this...

Grammar · Nov 11, 2005, 08:23 AM // 08:23

"And haven't you felt just a tiny bit cheesy when you cast an AoE Spell like Fire Storm, knowing it that the monsters were going to stand there like lumps, taking it until they died?"

I don't think anyone here is complaining about the fact that enemies now run from AOE spells.......
The problem is that they now immediately run from AOE spells, often times before the spell is even cast.

Yes, it's cheesy that they used to stand there and take 10 seconds of AOE damage, but I think it's equally cheesy that they now preemptively flee and take 0-1 seconds of AOE damage.
Can't there be a middle ground here?!
Why can't they flee after maybe 2-4 seconds (depending on the enemy and level) or something like that?