Curse

XvArchonvX · Nov 15, 2005, 12:56 PM // 12:56

If this has been said before I'm sorry, but I can't look through the 20 previous pages to check at the moment.

I personally don't think that AoE skills are useless now. Think about it, what happens when you use them? The enemies run right? What this means to me, is that now they are more of a defensive tactic than an offensive one. Let's say that you or a teammate are getting close to dying. Cast Symbol or Wrath or some other low energy AoE spell here and the enemy should flee, giving you or your teammate time to recharge. This should also help out Rangers and Warriors use skills like Bull's Strike, Protector's strike and such against fleeing enemies.

So long story short, I think a lot of people are oversimplifying this update into:
old strategy not work as well = no chance of winning anymore

which is sad, but hey, maybe if they all give up and quit, the versatile and strategic among us will have less idiots join up with us in missions.

shadow39365 · Nov 15, 2005, 12:57 PM // 12:57

there is a simple solution to this, maybe making the monsters run after about 7 or so second of AoE not instantly, i was running someone to Beacons recently and happened to be surrounded by ettins, no way out and i died, so i thought ok take Symbol of Wrath (no smiting lvl of course) and got surrounded used sow and they ran INSTANTLY, enlightens you of all the pathetic possibilties doesnt it?

the poll is damn gud!

iggk · Nov 15, 2005, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

So long story short, I think a lot of people are oversimplifying this update into:
old strategy not work as well = no chance of winning anymore

which is sad, but hey, maybe if they all give up and quit, the versatile and strategic among us will have less idiots join up with us in missions.

i dont remeber seeing anyone say there totaly usless just that the effect of AOE is no longer worth the cost.
rough example before update 15 cost AOE dealt 200 total damge to each enemy in area
post update
15 cost AOE does 15 damage and causes enemy to scater for 4 seconds resulting in increase in aggro bigger mob comes in hit with mybe 15 more dmg and scatters again causing yet more aggro after the third or forth scater and regroup of the enemy the aggro has more than doubled and you have delt mybe 30 dmg total to each enemy

please explain how this is still worth the cost of AOE's

and dont forget the effect is still present if your have 0 attributes in said AOE and deal 0 damage, now how is that increased AI ?

Magpie · Nov 15, 2005, 01:14 PM // 13:14

After having a quick read here it seems the players who like a constant challenge, like playing with a diverse group and skill make up love this patch.

The players who have found an effective setup and what to keep the status quo hate it.

I fit into the first category. I think the way the mobs scatter is perfect. I just hope they build on this and keep making the PvE more intelligent and dynamic. Combat is much more fun now, its unpredictable chaotic and keeps you focused. Just how it should be.

coolsti · Nov 15, 2005, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyote

I didn't say that was all I went with, only that eles nuking take agro away from the tanks. Tanks are tanks no matter what other classes you group with.

At the moment I'm playing a monk, and it's shocking how little people understand what we're capable of. They run off in different directions, run away from me when they're being chased while I'm trying to heal them, stand there getting hit sponging all my remaining energy, lead mobs to me instead of to the tanks. They have no idea how difficult they make our job. Then they blame us for their stupid mistake. Many ele's wont think about the risk, they'll just take the opportunity to do some damage.

Yes, I know exactly what you mean! Hopefully (unless Anet changes things once again) Elementalists and other AOE dealing classes will realize and make some strategy changes. I have a monk character also, and my friends and I have made some changes to reflect the patch. As monk I take Symbol of Wrath as a way to free myself of any melee enemy that surrounds me. Also, my Mesmer friend has become quite good at casting Chaos Storm near any of us that are being swamped by any enemy. With the patch, this of course has the effect of causing the enemy to run away.

rotaulave · Nov 15, 2005, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Pure and simple I'm ready to quit this game my build is useless everthing in this game sucks now, I cant believe what they did, im ready to quit and move on to something else now, and I've got 3000hr in regular game 1500000XP and I go all the way back to last years First beta and all beta's and free-weekends.

coolsti · Nov 15, 2005, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotaulave

Pure and simple I'm ready to quit this game my build is useless everthing in this game sucks now, I cant believe what they did, im ready to quit and move on to something else now, and I've got 3000hr in regular game 1500000XP and I go all the way back to last years First beta and all beta's and free-weekends.

Nothing more to say about it, the statistics speak for itself. With so many hours spent playing the same game, its time to quit and move on to something else.

Or, could it just perhaps possibly be the case that the patch, and the necessary strategy changes that need to be made because of the patch, are just the thing to make this game interesting, challenging, and exciting for you again?

Just a thought.

Magpie · Nov 15, 2005, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotaulave

Pure and simple I'm ready to quit this game my build is useless everthing in this game sucks now, I cant believe what they did, im ready to quit and move on to something else now, and I've got 3000hr in regular game 1500000XP and I go all the way back to last years First beta and all beta's and free-weekends.

Then change your build. If you wanna have the same build for ever whats the point of playing. Go work in a factory, you might enjoy it.

Numa Pompilius · Nov 15, 2005, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotaulave

Pure and simple I'm ready to quit this game my build is useless everthing in this game sucks now, I cant believe what they did, im ready to quit and move on to something else now, and I've got 3000hr in regular game 1500000XP and I go all the way back to last years First beta and all beta's and free-weekends.

1) 3000 hours?! Farking hell! I thought I was a fanatic! Yes, it sounds like maybe you should do something else for a while.
2) 3000 hours... and you want to continue the exact same way? I'd have thought you'd be happy for a change in the gameplay, I sure was and I've only some 500 hours and 900000 EXP. Have you noticed that re-speccing now is free and unlimited? Shift those points around, try some new skills. Maybe even change secondary profession? Take this opportunity to freshen up your game!

Keyote · Nov 15, 2005, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie

After having a quick read here it seems the players who like a constant challenge, like playing with a diverse group and skill make up love this patch.

The players who have found an effective setup and what to keep the status quo hate it.

I fit into the first category. I think the way the mobs scatter is perfect. I just hope they build on this and keep making the PvE more intelligent and dynamic. Combat is much more fun now, its unpredictable chaotic and keeps you focused. Just how it should be.

All you're saying is that mobs moving out of AoE's is perfect. You're totally ignoring the actual issues here and saying it's more of a challenge without even thinking about how little sense that makes...

No AoE's = mobs being just as dumb as they were before.

AoE's = waste of energy + risk to party

If you're watching them scatter then you or somebody with you is doing something wrong. Thats like saying "hey team, I like taking risks with the party so I'm going to run around luring spawns on to our monks and casters for this one, ok?".

Sure, it's easy to make the game more challenging like that. It's not called smart AI, it's called human stupidity.

coolsti · Nov 15, 2005, 01:43 PM // 13:43

I wonder: How many of the people that are complaining that elementalist AOE spells are now essentially worthless have actually tried to combine them with water magic's highly irritating motion slowing spells? Everytime I go out around Shiverpeaks I am either dead meat or completely ticked off by what those ice imps and, in fact, the ice elementalists, are doing to my character. Its really annoying trying to escape AOE damage and, in fact, all other damage when this frozen whatever-it-is hex is on me.

What say? Have any of you complainers tried this? Or is it so important to have max attribute points on fire that you can't spend any of it on water?

Numa Pompilius · Nov 15, 2005, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie

I think the way the mobs scatter is perfect. I just hope they build on this and keep making the PvE more intelligent and dynamic. Combat is much more fun now, its unpredictable chaotic and keeps you focused. Just how it should be.

Complete agreement.
Especially the "I just hope they build on this and keep making the PvE more intelligent and dynamic" bit. I'd like to see e.g. mobs behaving differently based on type and changing tactic on the fly to match the players tactics.

However, given the reception this AI update got (incidentally, why does everyone ALWAYS think EVERY change to ANYTHING is a "nerf to farming"?) I don't think ANet will be in a hurry to improve AI furtherr. Obviously a very large proportion of players prefer "fish in the barrel" type mobs to mobs which offer anything resembling a challenge*.

* Oh, and guys, you can't simultaneously claim that the mobs have got dumber than they were before AND claim that they're harder to kill now and that you now die too much. Seriously. Those are contradictory statements.

Magpie · Nov 15, 2005, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyote

All you're saying is that mobs moving out of AoE's is perfect. You're totally ignoring the actual issues here and saying it's more of a challenge without even thinking about how little sense that makes...

No AoE's = mobs being just as dumb as they were before.

AoE's = waste of energy + risk to party

If you're watching them scatter then you or somebody with you is doing something wrong. Thats like saying "hey team, I like taking risks with the party so I'm going to run around luring spawns on to our monks and casters for this one, ok?".

Sure, it's easy to make the game more challenging like that. It's not called smart AI, it's called human stupidity.

I can see what you’re getting at but to me

Mob that stands getting pounded by AoE = dumb AI

Mob that moves out of AoE = slightly less dumb AI

Drop an AoE in PvP and watch the people move (except the real dumb ones).

What it does is make you think more about how to use them. Either defensively to disburse mobs that have agroed a non tank, or offensively by using tanks/snares etc to pin them down first.

It does change the way they have to be used which is bound to upset some people, and I agree the henches AI needs to be updated to reflect this. However how can't you see this is a huge improvement? Combat was so rinse and repeat before.

If you take your approach and just dump AoE's all together then it still frees up other slots for new combinations, new options. However I see them best used as a defensive tactic to protect the non tanks.

It has made things harder. It does now take better tactics and coordination, but with out these improvements the game was in danger of becoming stagnant. I think it’s a step in the right direction.

Chreelister · Nov 15, 2005, 02:09 PM // 14:09

I think changes and frequent changes that A-net has been doing lately would help the fanatic 24/7 guild war gamers, as they are probably getting bored with the game, but I think it hurts the casual gamer tremendously. I myself believe I am a casual gamer and what I hate about the whole thing is change. It looks like I am going to have to read and read about updates everyday before I log on and try to keep up with whats what and whats different. I see the fanatic type easily able to adapt to change while the casual gamer has not the time or gold to.

I myself haven't found the game stale and have it found it to include enough challenge already, what I don't want to be doing once a month is rebuilding a build or starting over because now what worked yesterday, doesn't work before. And my greatest fear is one day and one day this will happen, I will spend a fortune in gold and time and will eventually come up with a character and skill selections that kicks butt and be real happy with, all to find it hit head on with A-net's uber bat of nerfing and eternal game changing weapon of mass destruction. They don't want us to solo and basically if a build can, something will change, so to me what's the point of trying anymore. If something else comes up being a great solo build, something will happen and then it won't be. And in fact I only bought the game to see if I could build a great solo character for PVE, I can care less about PVP. If they dont want us to solo something, put a freaking number of party members minimum on it, some other geniuses mentioned this already. IMO, the beta testing should be over, which seems to be the current state of the game.

What I do like though is additions, Guild Wars for a free to play game is number one for additions, with the halloween update, cloak and helmet on and off, the treasure chests and the awesome add-on Sorrow's Furnace. What time that was wasted on the AI, could have been spent on adding quests, areas, or even some kind of auction system or a trader for mods, yes every mod in the game, that would rule, IMO this should be done before anything. Add stuff, please no more changes, at least for awhile, anyway.

Keyote · Nov 15, 2005, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie

Mob that stands getting pounded by AoE = dumb AI

Mob that moves out of AoE = slightly less dumb AI

Drop an AoE in PvP and watch the people move (except the real dumb ones).

Well consider how much stronger mobs are than us. We move from AoE's because they hurt, a lot.

Now look at the new AI and watch mobs flee from an AoE after x amount of seconds just as they're about to kill a player, even if that fire storm only tickles. Toe to toe mobs can take and dish out more damage than us, so why would every one of them run away? This is where I'm missing the 'intelligent' part. They react even dumber in most situations now than they did before.

We can also slow them down so they cant escape the area so fast, and what do they do...walk away slowly getting beaten to death and not even attacking players.

I'm all for AI improvements if it actually makes them smarter, but this doesn't.

Magpie · Nov 15, 2005, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyote

Well consider how much stronger mobs are than us. We move from AoE's because they hurt, a lot.

Now look at the new AI and watch mobs flee from an AoE after x amount of seconds just as they're about to kill a player, even if that fire storm only tickles. Toe to toe mobs can take and dish out more damage than us, so why would every one of them run away? This is where I'm missing the 'intelligent' part. They react even dumber in most situations now than they did before.

We can also slow them down so they cant escape the area so fast, and what do they do...walk away slowly getting beaten to death and not even attacking players.

I'm all for AI improvements if it actually makes them smarter, but this doesn't.

Again I can see what you’re saying. However I do believe this does make them smarter. Not much mind you I'll give you that, but they are smarter. The fact that they are harder to kill shows this.

I see the biggest gripe here is the changed behaviour means a complete rethink on player step up and tactics for some people. I think that’s a good thing. It prevents players falling into the rut of using the same tired old tactics over and over again. It requires adjusting to a changing world. Exploring skills over again to see what you can do with them. For me that = fun.

As I said I would love them to build on this over time and keep adding more features to the AI. Eventually they might not be so dumb. That goes for the henchies too. Hate it when the last hench standing rezes you with his final breath just so you can be killed in seconds again and double your death penalty.

Sluggs · Nov 15, 2005, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by free4all

I hope this doesn't get lost in the Flurry of posts about the AoE nerf. I believe it adds yet another glitch to AI that will serve to make the game harder for no good reason.

Heh I almost missed this post, so many people are boohooing about the AoE damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by free4all

The problem is, the last patch was supposed to "make monsters follow you less".

It did the EXACT OPPOSITE for some monsters. Whether this was intentional or not (and I am strongly leaning towards that it was) I do not know.

The problem is not that there are more worms on the Droknar's run, it is that they DO NOT LEAVE YOU.

I can confirm this. Last night we had a race to Droknar's with 5 warriors. The first worms stayed with us until the second tunnel before the first troll tunnel in Lornars. The second batch of worms stayed with us about twice the distance prepatch.

I also find it odd, like you, that they claimed to have reduced the amount of time a monster will follow you in the patch message and worms somehow ended up getting extended.

I am not sure about the avicara, but I did notice 2 of them chasing us all the way to the zone as we did the Talus Chute part of the run.

It seems worse if there are MORE people with you.. go figure..

Seems this would be counterproductive to PvE situations as well.. imagine agroing too many worms at once and your monk tries to flee while the rest of you distract the worms.. (not an unlikely scenario as you might think: I've been in that situation.. good ol rebirth...) with this new patch that really isn't a possibility. Those worms will hunt every last one of you down and kill you.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

internetguy · Nov 15, 2005, 04:25 PM // 16:25

I don’t like the idea that we have to fight to same type of foes with a different tactic; it makes game stupid. Just like, why the foes did not run away from AoE before, but after the patch, they run away, it makes me feel the “patch” or the developer make them “smarter”, and it is totally unrealism. Also, why they are not responding to melee attacks, if the same concept (responding to pain) applies, they should all run away or try to block melee attack too, same way as they respond to AoE. lol

I think if they want to increase the AI for the foes, why they don’t change the monster type and AI at the same time in the same area, so we don’t need to fight against the same types of foes all the time, which will make the game more real.

Mahanaxar · Nov 15, 2005, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Nobody is answering a simple question.

Why is PvE supposed to be like PvP?
If I want smart PvP enemies, i go in tombs, arenas or gvg.
In CA i need 30 secs only to face people moving out of aoe (and not running like chickens from a fireball

).

GWGuru · Nov 15, 2005, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahanaxar

Nobody is answering a simple question.

Why is PvE supposed to be like PvP?
If I want smart PvP enemies, i go in tombs, arenas or gvg.
In CA i need 30 secs only to face people moving out of aoe (and not running like chickens from a fireball

).

Why is PvE supposed to be a boring, uninteresting, skill-lacking grind?