Curse

Khrysyl · May 30, 2005, 11:05 PM // 23:05

First, I never said that the majority of players were hardcore PvE/PvPer. I said that they were PvE/PvPers. This is a characteristic I have noted on numerous occasions in the past, many PvP players don't tent to read with a great deal of accuracy, or with a great deal of thoroughness.

I cannot prove my assumption that the PvP/PvE population is larger than the PvP one any more than you can. And using a single thread to determine which is the larger population is is a thoroughly laughable idea.

First, if you will notice, the pure PvP player tends to be much more outspoken than the PvE player. They also tend to be more intimidating in arguments. The number of reasons why this thread seems to have more PvPers than PvEers responding is to high for me to bother enumerating, but let's just assume that the number of reasons is sufficiently high to support my claim that using this thread as a measure of population is laughable, shall we?

Finally, I offer to you a simple proposition. You have a very clearly defined idea of what makes a good game, and (I am guessing here) you participated in the GW BWE events. Note the following from Gaile:

Quote:

Perhaps the design vision wasn't evident to you in Beta; perhaps you misunderstand our position. Just one thought on opinion, too: What one perceives as "grind" another perceives as appropriate game playthrough, where a third holds an opinion somewhere in between.

Quote:

We'll see what the future brings. Viewing the community as a whole, it's clear there are many schools of thought, and addressing the input solely from one of them could lead to changes to the game that diametrically oppose those proposals from another group. It's a difficult challenge, but looking at the team, looking at what the game is now, looking at the potential for even greater things that you all clearly see, I'd ask that you continue to share your thoughts and more importantly, your excellent suggestions. Please do so, most definitely, while keeping in mind that Guild Wars is intended for players of all types and that we'll make adjustments wisely, and carefully, so as to continue to follow the vision, a vision that your positive contributions can help us form.

The proposition is this: Perhaps there is a possibility that in your excitement over a game that included features (such as UAS, clearly marked as a beta test only feature) you read into the descriptions provided by A.Net things that were never intended by A.Net. Note for example that Gaile states that Guild Wars is intended for players of all types.

You are of course free to continue to rant for things that will NEVER occur in Guild Wars, it would be a pity, and a grievous waste of time, but you can if you wish. Or, you can change course and join with those who wish to see the GW experience improved for ALL PLAYERS, because ultimately, those are the people that A.Net will listen to. It's up to you.

Eclair · May 30, 2005, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Setting up separate UAS ladder would be a separate server exclusively for pvp and characters that has access to UAS system. This means that it would not affect PvE characters at ALL. Those who still want to have advantage in pvp based on how much time they played the game coudl still stick to the current pvp servers, and fight against other PvE players.

This would improve gaming for ALL players. It would shut hardcore pvpers up, and PvE players and use it as a place to test out builds, or simply just try some PvPing with a character they don't have without having to grind through the game another time. In the end, they could still go back to pvping with their own character against other PvE players.

AirOnG · May 30, 2005, 11:12 PM // 23:12

I did misread that, Loviator, and I apologize ^^ I stand by my assertion that there are far more "hardcore" PvPers that don't want grind than "hardcore" PvPers/PvEers that want grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodoku

Levels do not play into hit-vs.-defense calculations.

They do. You have more chances to crit against lower levels among other boons simply by virtue of having a higher level. This is negligent of course due to most serious PvP occurring among level 20s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodoku

Assumptions have been made on both sides of the playing field. You mentioned the misleading skill motif in the advertising and on the game box itself.

They have claimed many times in the past that the game is skill based and not based on hours played. This is objectively false in that you need to invest literally hundreds of hours in repetitive PvE farming before you can compete on a level playing field. This was not what they implied at all throughout their advertisement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodoku

The balance argument in the context of an MMORPG setting is not a non sequitur in that in an MMORPG, character skills, equipment, et al must be acquired through work over time.

This is what you believe an MMORPG setting requires. The game does not have to be strictly defined by its genre. On top of that, A.net has claimed they were diverging from the traditional MMORPG mold of time investment being more important than skill among other changes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodoku

Thus I am inclined to side with the propositioin that skills, runes, and weapon mods be earnable through PvP accomplishments - though only for PvP-only characters.

Although it is not optimal to me, it is a suitable compromise and one I would definitely accept (provided that one can obtain everything in the game in a reasonable timeframe through this method).

I still contend you committed a serious non sequitur. It makes no sense that PvP would become unbalanced if everyone has access to the same abilities and equipment.

AirOnG · May 30, 2005, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Khrysyl, the argument that UAS would somehow make the other camps infuriated with the game is flawed. UAS with a certain implementation would not affect them at all except less population since you are no longer forcing them to participate in something they do not want to do. Those who do not like UAS are not affected and do not have to participate. If you believe the non-UAS ladder would become a barren wasteland, then that is the fault of the original game mechanic and shows a considerable amount of people do not prefer the current system.

Khrysyl · May 30, 2005, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

I did misread that, Loviator, and I apologize ^^ I stand by my assertion that there are far more "hardcore" PvPers that don't want grind than "hardcore" PvPers/PvEers that want grind.

Phrased that way, you may very well be right. However, A.Net is not going to care about that, they are going to take into account the concerns of all players, not just those that fall into two artificially construed groups. So your assertion doesn't really matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Setting up separate UAS ladder would be a separate server exclusively for pvp and characters that has access to UAS system. This means that it would not affect PvE characters at ALL.

As A.Net has stated, they created one game, not two, a game that is "intended for players of all types".

So, separate ladders, separate servers? Not much chance of that happening, more likely, no chance at all.

Khrysyl · May 30, 2005, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Khrysyl, the argument that UAS would somehow make the other camps infuriated with the game is flawed. UAS with a certain implementation would not affect them at all except less population since you are no longer forcing them to participate in something they do not want to do. Those who do not like UAS are not affected and do not have to participate. If you believe the non-UAS ladder would become a barren wasteland, then that is the fault of the original game mechanic and shows a considerable amount of people do not prefer the current system.

If you are talking about a UAS in an integrated PvE/PvP game, then you are completely incorrect. It would completely destroy the game for anyone who is interested in both PvP and PvE.

If you mean in a game separated into two, then you are still wrong. It would force the PvE/PvP player to play two games when A.Net intended them to play only one.

Finally, A.Net has stated (do I really need to keep repeating myself? It seems I do) that there will not be a UAS in the release game. If you want to continue in your fantasy world where UAS is just around the corner if you just keep bringing up the subject then feel free to do so. But you sure do look mighty foolish in doing so.

BE|Dac · May 30, 2005, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khrysyl

Phrased that way, you may very well be right. However, A.Net is not going to care about that, they are going to take into account the concerns of all players, not just those that fall into two artificially construed groups. So your assertion doesn't really matter.

As A.Net has stated, they created one game, not two, a game that is "intended for players of all types".

So, separate ladders, separate servers? Not much chance of that happening, more likely, no chance at all.

Yes instead, we will have 1 dead ladder that sucks more then any other in the history of games, in fact it is downright boring to try to even play on it.

Shadow_Avenger · May 30, 2005, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

You have to understand it is not playing through the missions or main campaign that is the problem. The main problem is being required to go into the exact same area in an extremely repetitive monotone fashion to kill mobs over and over for hundreds of solid ingame hours in order to compete on a level playing field. Another problem is being arbitrarily required to repetitively play through the campaign more than once in order to have skills from all classes.

LOL

You make this game sound more like Pokemon each and every post, got to catch em all. Need all class's even if I am only really enjoy playing one type...
GOT TO HAVE EVERYTHING...
Having team mates each of whom, playes a different class and has unlocked the skills for their chosen play style isn't enough.
Hmm, the new system where rune drops actually tell you what they are before you identify them, makes it shed loads easier to unlock the rune, a guild working together could easily blitz through the runes if they pasted them to the actual players in the guild that would benefit. I.e Give the player who favours a monk, monk runes, etc, etc..
But that will not happen because as stated above....

Pokemon GOT TO CATCH THEM ALL......

Khrysyl · May 30, 2005, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by BE|Dac

Yes instead, we will have 1 dead ladder that sucks more then any other in the history of games, in fact it is downright boring to try to even play on it.

Quite the contrary, if the PvPers will only accept a game their way rather than a compromise that benefits all players then once you have left the ladder will be inhabited by the players for which this game was intended.

AirOnG · May 30, 2005, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Your attempt at non sequitur humour has unfortunately failed, Shadow_Avenger. Please be civil.

You assume that people like being pigeonholed into one role and do not like experimentation or variety in their gameplay. I am sure many people would find fault with your assumption.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khrysyl

Quite the contrary, if the PvPers will only accept a game their way rather than a compromise that benefits all players then once you have left the ladder will be inhabited by the players for which this game was intended.

Can you make your statement clearer?

Loviatar · May 30, 2005, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by BE|Dac

Yes instead, we will have 1 dead ladder that sucks more then any other in the history of games, in fact it is downright boring to try to even play on it.

because instead of playing the game all the hardcore pvpers are farming because they HAVE to have everything before they can play

do they all feel that only they are qualified to be the master of all trades and builds that will personally save the guild team from ruin ?

why cant they play now and farm on the side and add to their builds rather than having to have everything before they can play?

i think that is a reasonable question (of course i expect to be flamed for asking)

AirOnG · May 30, 2005, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviator

why cant they play now and farm on the side and add to their builds rather than having to have everything before they can play?

Because some other guild will do this and gain an unfair advantage. Superior runes are very difficult to find for just one class much less everything since they've significantly nerfed the grind spots. Versatality in player builds helps a lot as well in understanding the game and being able to adjust team composition on the fly.

Khrysyl · May 30, 2005, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Your attempt at non sequitur humour has unfortunately failed, Shadow_Avenger. Please be civil.

You assume that people like being pigeonholed into one role and do not like experimentation or variety in their gameplay. I am sure many people would find fault with your assumption.

Yeah! You tell 'em Air! Right on!

Oh, and your comment about experimentation and variety reminds me. I won't be able to chat now for awhile. You see, Khrysyl is waiting for me in the arena. She has gained almost her whole last level in the arena and is now only a few hundred XP away, just a few matches to her next level. Then I want to experiment with redistributing her attribute points to see if I can't make her more effective in both the PvP arena and while running missions. See ya later!

Corwin_Andros · May 30, 2005, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Air.. How would you feel if they implemented a PvP only server that had no elites, runes, or upgrades, but were completely open for all basic skills.. Instant level playing field. Would all of you be happy with that?

You are insisting a "LEVEL PLAYING FIELD" is all you and the other hardcore pvp folks want and don't care if it is completely segregated from the rest of the game. WOuld you be satisfied with a PvP format that was completely equal for all participants if it didn't have all the extra doodads that the intended audience has access to by going PvE/PvP the way the devs intended...

Remember that your level playing field would in effect be its own entity.

Loviatar · May 30, 2005, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Because some other guild will do this and gain an unfair advantage.

which would be temporary and decrease as the play/farm group found more stuff

in the meantime anet will do something or no thing or anything

i will watch from the sidelines in the future with interest

sama · May 30, 2005, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by BE|Dac

Yes instead, we will have 1 dead ladder that sucks more then any other in the history of games, in fact it is downright boring to try to even play on it.

omg, you can't be more right. out of sheer boredom, 8 of my guildmates stated a fake guild. in 6 hrs we got to ranked 29 from unranked. what's funny is that we spend more time "Awaiting a Worthy Opponent" then we do playing the game. the ladder is so broken, it's not even funny.

Pop quiz. How many guilds in the top 40 aren't a duplicate, dummy, or practice guild? Answer, wayyyyyyy more than you think. K A R M A, had two secondary guilds in the top 40 at one point and um, we're not even close to how many secondary guilds other elite guilds have. why do we do this? because it can take 40+ mins to find an opponent in the same range as us. and what's worst is that 90% of the opponents we do find we finish in 5 mins or less. and um, i don't think more pve guilds on the ladder is going to help this problem. they won't even be ranked high enough to face us.

and xellos, yup there is a business and there's an ideal. i guess in the real world you choose what pays your bills. hmm, it seems to me that if you're going to make a hybrid fps and rpg, you have to make it so each half is able to stand on its own. while the rpg part is ok (not spectacular), the pvp is pretty awesome...if we can ever get to it...

AirOnG · May 30, 2005, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corwin_Andros

Air.. How would you feel if they implemented a PvP only server that had no elites, runes, or upgrades, but were completely open for all basic skills.. Instant level playing field. Would all of you be happy with that?

I'd be happy with it for a bit although others probably wouldn't be. Some would claim it is analagous to making a PvP server where everyone could only be maxed out w/mos since you are artificially limiting the depth of the gameplay and the potential amount of possible builds.

Shadow_Avenger · May 30, 2005, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Geeze soo many people have penis envy on these boards.

SIMPLE FACT there will be a few elite players , around 100 tops who will dominate this game, just as there are in every other competitive PC game, from Command and Conqure to Unreal tournement.
These players will have no doubt have one class that they always play and have worked out how to play them to amazing skill levels. They will no doubt have "ALL the SKILLs" for there chosen class, but they wont use them. (yes I know only 8 slots for the witty onces out there)
I would also put money on it that these players aint the ones bitching on these boards, they are playing the game, because they have enough sence to realise it aint getting them any where bitchin, in fact they could probably find all the skills before an UAS was introduced, and what the heck, even if it does get introduced, bonus, they will have had the x amount of time perfecting their skills.

AirOnG · May 30, 2005, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviator

which would be temporary and decrease as the play/farm group found more stuff

Of course it would be temporary, but the length of that temporary duration of playing gimped would be potentially frustrating and dependent on how much time one devotes to grinding. The total amount of the grinding would eventually sum to literally hundreds of hours. I suppose that I will just repeat that it is a completely artifical and easily removed gameplay mechanic that adds no depth to the game and is just a method for people with too much time on their hands to leverage an unfair advantage against others.

You've made another logical fallacy, Shadow_Avenger. Your claim that since you believe people at high level competition play very specialized roles one should not have the privilege of experimenting with different builds makes absolutely no sense. I will also contend that your belief that people at high level competition do not experiment with different roles and only play one thing over and over again is verifiably false.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_Avenger

I would also put money on it that these players aint the ones bitching on these boards, they are playing the game, because they have enough sence to realise it aint getting them any where bitchin, in fact they could probably find all the skills before an UAS was introduced, and what the heck, even if it does get introduced, bonus, they will have had the x amount of time perfecting their skills.

Top guilds among many others have complained about the grind in retail.

Khrysyl · May 30, 2005, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Can you make your statement clearer?

Sure. I guess I have time for one more.

Once those people have left the ladder who will accept a PvP only solution to the perceived problems with GW the ladder will not be dead as the poster stated, it will be inhabited by those for whom the game was intended, and dare I say, by those who like the game.

As an added bonus I will add also, anyone who continues to campaign for PvP only solution (which A.Net has stated is not going to be implemented) are only hurting themselves. I strongly encourage the folks who fall into that category to learn the things that matter to a PvE or Pve/PvP player so that they can engage in informed discussion and help to be part of the solution. Gaile has encouraged all of us to continue to submit our ideas, but PvP only ideas or those that call for splitting the game can only be counterproductive.

Now, I really do have to go, Khrysyl gets so hissy when I am late arriving at the arena! Bye!