Curse

The Virago · May 30, 2005, 07:36 PM // 19:36

I don't think anyone doubts there are some players who don't want to have to earn things. However, it is pretty obvious that ArenaNet intends you do. Rather than attack those who are reminding you of a little thing called 'reality', why not come up with something that might approximate a workable compromise?

People who show up with only problems and never solutions rarely get taken seriously by much of anyone.

@Xellos -- I have no issue whatever with earning things. By the time I hit the level where Sigils will matter to me, I'll easily be able to pay 100K or more for them. You see, rather than spend my time complaining about things that aren't going to change, I prefer to work and meet my goal.

DarrenJasper · May 30, 2005, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virago

Rather than attack those who are reminding you of a little thing called 'reality', why not come up with something that might approximate a workable compromise?

Gee, from all the people you've screeched at for not reading every word of your extremely condescending posts, I was under the impression you'd at least done them the courtesy of reading this whole thread before posting. I can see how wrong I was.

And do you ever plan to come down from your high horse and have a civil discussion or will I have to keep pulling you down?

john little · May 30, 2005, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiknudStunod

A little comedy on what BF 1942 would be like if it was like GW's =o/

Hopeful pvper say's, "Hey you guys want to help me take down that general down so i can get the rocket launcher?"

Disgruntled pvper say's,"we must of done this mission 100 times, but the boss with the swiss army knife keeps spawning instead!"

The average PvEer say's,"You guys don't need the rocket launcher to compete in pvp just use your pistols on the tank, you will kill it eventually."

The avid grinder say's, "You guys don't deserve the rocket launcher unless you keep doing this mission over and over again like I did."

The mixed PvP/PvE'er say's, "is the fun in killing the tank or the combat?" and "killing a tank with a pistol or rocket launcher...which seems more impressive"

The Virago · May 30, 2005, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren Jasper

Gee, from all the people you've screeched at for not reading every word of your extremely condescending posts, I was under the impression you'd at least done them the courtesy of reading this whole thread before posting. I can see how wrong I was.

And do you ever plan to come down from your high horse and have a civil discussion or will I have to keep pulling you down?

Assumptions are ugly things, friend. I've read it all, and the only constant is the contingent of 'me me me' and 'now now now'.

Haven't seen a game yet where the developer has changed something due to whining.

I suggested you come up with viable suggestions. You reply with this load.

Gee, guess who is avoiding the point here?

edit: Here's my stance. Note the suggestion. Care to try it yourself?

iotc247 · May 30, 2005, 07:53 PM // 19:53

I dunno but i remember reading that someone said that all guilds should get halls but sigils activate the PVP. Well if we pve players get that I dont see why not that you cant have your UAS only ladder. (That was us pve who pvp with the same char can still have a chance).

DarrenJasper · May 30, 2005, 07:55 PM // 19:55

That's amazing to me. You claim to have read every post, and yet all you'd have to read to discover a "viable suggestion" as you put it is the very first one.

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, this entire thread is based on an idea for a compromise, which would be a separate UAS ladder for people who don't work at McDonald's and are as such unaccustomed to hours and hours of repetitive tasks. No one here has asked for a plain, simple UAS button, that's already happened in previous threads. This one is addressing the issues an easy implementation like that would provoke, and trying to work around them.

If all you've seen is 'me me me' and 'now now now', maybe you're reading the wrong thread? I can honestly say I have no idea at this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virago

Haven't seen a game yet where the developer has changed something due to whining.

So, Guild Wars is your first game, then?

The Virago · May 30, 2005, 08:05 PM // 20:05

A compromise is something that grants benefit to each party... perhaps not as much as they would like, but that's the nature of the term.

Making a clear-cut distinction between PvE and PvP puts in place a schism that confounds cross-over. This is why ArenaNet wisely chooses not to do so.

As for myself, I've stated elsewhere why I'm currently exclusively PvE in GuildWars and I don't see much in the game (or here for that matter) to change my mind.

If you wish to assume my background, motivations, etc. that is entirely up to you. -shrug-

Mr. Matt · May 30, 2005, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Note: Please do not make a kneejerk reply to this thread going "oh noes, another grind thread!" It adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. You can ignore this discussion at your own whim.

If there was an UAS ladder where only UAS pvp players could only play with UAS pvp players and would not be able to compete with the regular PvE characters in any way or participate in any PvE, why do you have problems with it?

Why are you so adamantly against a system that would completely unaffect you in any way and a large part of the fan base are asking for?

Note: I realize that this may be viewed as redundant and a rehash, but I think I can justify this thread's existence. I believe that this is an unresolved question that needs to be directly addressed in the community. Putting it in a more general thread will simply make it lost in a sea of other discussion.

Here's an idea. For the people who don't like dying, why don't we introduce a 'god mode' option? Then they don't have to die or lose if they don't want to!

Also, I think that sometimes running out of energy can be annoying, so we should allow people to have unlimited energy too.

While we're at it, I think people should be able to set their own damage on their weapons, so they can do as much damage as they like. Saves people having to take the time to kill people when they know they're just going to win anyway!

Why stop there? Let's make the skills customisable too! Just double-click, input a number and you're done.

Or how about no? It's part of the game. Like it or lump it. You running around with all skills unlocked would not be fair on PvErs who have worked to get to the PvP content the hard way, only to discover everyone there is, basically, cheating. And they'd be forced to join them if they ever wanted to be competitive themselves. Where is the 'RPG' part coming in to play if you don't have to bother working to develop your character, exactly? If you want a first person shooter instead, I can point you in the direction of millions of them.

DarrenJasper · May 30, 2005, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Matt

Here's an idea. For the people who don't like dying, why don't we introduce a 'god mode' option? Then they don't have to die or lose if they don't want to!

Also, I think that sometimes running out of energy can be annoying, so we should allow people to have unlimited energy too.

While we're at it, I think people should be able to set their own damage on their weapons, so they can do as much damage as they like. Saves people having to take the time to kill people when they know they're just going to win anyway!

Why stop there? Let's make the skills customisable too! Just double-click, input a number and you're done.

Or how about no? It's part of the game. Like it or lump it. You running around with all skills unlocked would not be fair on PvErs who have worked to get to the PvP content the hard way, only to discover everyone there is, basically, cheating. And they'd be forced to join them if they ever wanted to be competitive themselves. Where is the 'RPG' part coming in to play if you don't have to bother working to develop your character, exactly? If you want a first person shooter instead, I can point you in the direction of millions of them.

My god, where was all this thinking before they put Sigils on the traders?

Red Locust · May 30, 2005, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Matt

Here's an idea. For the people who don't like dying, why don't we introduce a 'god mode' option? Then they don't have to die or lose if they don't want to!

Also, I think that sometimes running out of energy can be annoying, so we should allow people to have unlimited energy too.

While we're at it, I think people should be able to set their own damage on their weapons, so they can do as much damage as they like. Saves people having to take the time to kill people when they know they're just going to win anyway!

Why stop there? Let's make the skills customisable too! Just double-click, input a number and you're done.

Or how about no? It's part of the game. Like it or lump it. You running around with all skills unlocked would not be fair on PvErs who have worked to get to the PvP content the hard way, only to discover everyone there is, basically, cheating. And they'd be forced to join them if they ever wanted to be competitive themselves. Where is the 'RPG' part coming in to play if you don't have to bother working to develop your character, exactly? If you want a first person shooter instead, I can point you in the direction of millions of them.

This is more or less what I was thinking about the UAS suggestion. Having all the best skills, items, runes, armor unlocked at the touch of a button seems to make the entire PvE and RPG part meaningless.

sama · May 30, 2005, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

So far as I can tell, there is a small contingent of folks who really don't care about the game, they're not here to do anything other than PvE. There really isn't "a problem" with this other than those who subscribe to this perspective have (apparently) missed an important reality:

PvP, not skills and upgrades, is the reward for playing the game.

As mentioned elsewhere, I think it would be interesting and fun to be able to "Loot" skills (copy, not take away) from others in PvP. And I completely don't understand the decision to make PvP players earn their skills. Player skill, not time invested in menial tasks, should be the only way that winning in the context that exists in this game matters.

haha, bravo! well played, gg.

no where on this forum can you find a clearer difference in the mindset of pve players and pvp players. ignoring these differences and accepting each other isn't a realistic solution because of...well, human nature. compromise has already been reached in other threads but it still needs to be implemented.

btw, sigil traders have UNLIMINTED supplies of sigils. gg pve players! see whining does work! instead of paying 100k, you only have to pay 83k! that's 17% off the evil pvp player's price! funny how 3x sigils drop increase and an unliminted sigil supply only shaved off 17%. hmm what does that say about the sigil price before the change? I dunno, doing the math is seems 100k was low compared to the demand...

AirOnG · May 30, 2005, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by egads

I do not want to play in a "show off how much you've grinded!" ladder, especially not if the main competition is going on elsewhere.

Ironically despite your PvE stance, that's what this game is currently: a "show off how much you've grinded!" ladder. Aside from that, you are a very compromising individual in your post.

Mindbullets, you make a valid point. However, the people that seem to be most adamantly against a UAS system are those that proudly dub themselves PvEers, and thus I posed the question to them. There does seem to be a rift in the community, but I do realize there are crossover players that enjoy both aspects of the game. I guess by virtue of simply differentiating people into different "sides" people start namecalling and spewing out non sequiturs supporting their argument (both sides do this) instead of forming constructive arguments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mindbullets

I ask only that there isn't this line drawn between people that only want to PvP and those that PvE so that we can PvP with the items and gear we've chosen to pursue.

Unfortunately if a UAS was implemented, the line drawn would be an actual ingame division. Whether this is good or bad is debateable. To me it is good since it lets people choose their gamestyle instead of having it forced upon them. I agree both sides shouldn't simply spew hatred at the other side, but there is a clear difference between the two camps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virago

So far as I can tell, there is a small contingent of folks who really don't care about the game, they're not here to do anything other than PvP. There really isn't "a problem" with this other than that those who subscribe to this perspective have (apparently) missed an important reality:

Skills and upgrades, not PvP, are the reward for playing the game.

You're forcing your beliefs on others. To a PvPer, the actual competition and ranking in a ladder is the reward for playing the game, not gaining an unfair advantage over the competition.

Anyone ever play America's Army? In order to play online, you were forced to do the training missions. Whether or not this improves the online experience is debateable, but the training missions were just that: training missions. Now, imagine if you had to repeat those training missions over and over again for a minimum of 48 solid ingame hours before you could wield certain powerful weapons in the game. That is the exact equivalent that many GW PvP players are experiencing before they can actually play PvP. They've already experienced the "training". Why do it repetitively over and over again?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virago

Assumptions are ugly things, friend. I've read it all, and the only constant is the contingent of 'me me me' and 'now now now'.

You are the one that is sorely lacking in comprehension, Virago. You are completely misunderstanding the PvP mentality and are refusing to understand it.

Virago, many people, pvpers and pveers alike, have all submitted compromises in this thread. Your ignorance does not change this fact.

Mr. Matt, I lavish the same deserved insults to you that I've given to Virago. You simply refuse to understand the other side and to seek compromise.

Khrysyl · May 30, 2005, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Sama, what you and many others completely fail to take into account is the fact that the majority of players are attracted to this game because it offers BOTH PvE and PvP. Some are more towards the PvE and others more toward PvP.

Determining what players are interested in is anything but a clear black vs. white issue. Fortunately, A.Net is aware of their player base and will not be unduly swayed by the relatively small factions of pure PvE OR pure PvP players.

This game started as a blend between PvP and PvE and I am certain from recent statements from Gaile that they fully intend to keep it that way.

NiknudStunod · May 30, 2005, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virago

A compromise is something that grants benefit to each party... perhaps not as much as they would like, but that's the nature of the term.

Making a clear-cut distinction between PvE and PvP puts in place a schism that confounds cross-over. This is why ArenaNet wisely chooses not to do so.

As for myself, I've stated elsewhere why I'm currently exclusively PvE in GuildWars and I don't see much in the game (or here for that matter) to change my mind.

If you wish to assume my background, motivations, etc. that is entirely up to you. -shrug-

If you are currently exclusively pve then you have no room posting in this thread. The players that used the UAS button during bwe could only do it with pvp characters. They could not venture outside of the arena areas so the only contact they would have with you is when you decided to pvp. The people that the UAS button would effect is the grinding elite players who grind because it gives them a advantage in a fight over someone who didn't grind. This game was suppose to be about skill over time played but the reverse is what is true much to my dismay.

sama · May 30, 2005, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khrysyl

Sama, what you and many others completely fail to take into account is the fact that the majority of players are attracted to this game because it offers BOTH PvE and PvP. Some are more towards the PvE and others more toward PvP.

Determining what players are interested in is anything but a clear black vs. white issue. Fortunately, A.Net is aware of their player base and will not be unduly swayed by the relatively small factions of pure PvE OR pure PvP players.

This game started as a blend between PvP and PvE and I am certain from recent statements from Gaile that they fully intend to keep it that way.

hmm...how did i ever get through college without reading comprehension =)

what was that quote about trying to making everyone happy? well, i'm sure i'll remember later. in any case, there doesn't seem to be any middle ground or it could be that there's a huge group of people that enjoy both pve and pvp but only a tiny, tiny fraction post here. i dunno, anet has yet to provide solid numbers nor do i expect them to. So it's really hard to say what a majority wants because a majority doesn't post here. However, this is hardly a main or important point in the context of the title of this thread.

the only thing that forcibly "blends" the pvp and pve is the skill grinding and rune grinding. the fact of the matter is, if pve players choose not to pvp, then they never have to. Thus, this "connection" between pve and pvp is only one way and not the revolution as many had hoped. however, in blending pvp (fps) and pve (rpg), you have inherant problems as they're two different types of games. This hybrid of the two worlds, Guild Wars, have certainly succeeded in some capacity, but in the process mislead many purist pvp'ers. And as a rpg game, well there's many that seem to have a better storyline, gameplay, and immersion.

I feel that anet needs to be more responsive to the community not only through hard stances in the form of in-game changes, but in clearly written public responses. That way we're be clear what direction the game is going and we could avoid the problem of being mislead . The only interaction between the community and anet is the occasional responses from Ms. Gaile Grey and Mr. Alex Weekes who's responses are shallow and vague at best.

Xellos · May 30, 2005, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by sama

haha, bravo! well played, gg.

no where on this forum can you find a clearer difference in the mindset of pve players and pvp players. ignoring these differences and accepting each other isn't a realistic solution because of...well, human nature. compromise has already been reached in other threads but it still needs to be implemented.

btw, sigil traders have UNLIMINTED supplies of sigils. gg pve players! see whining does work! instead of paying 100k, you only have to pay 83k! that's 17% off the evil pvp player's price! funny how 3x sigils drop increase and an unliminted sigil supply only shaved off 17%. hmm what does that say about the sigil price before the change? I dunno, doing the math is seems 100k was low compared to the demand...

The real problem is when the majority of PVP players know what's best for PVE better then the PVE players, simply because they were forced through PVE at an accelerated rate, and also the requirements for PVP forced them to learn PVE to such a high degree, that it makes the PVE players unqualified to talk about PVE in the first place, yet alone PVP or how they intertwine.

Awell, I guess my keyboard practice is done for today. Time to listen to ensign's sig sama

thanks again!

Btw, the sigil increase proved me wrong. I forgot to account ebayers, since I've seen people buy 16+ sigils for no apparent reason in LA. Ah, outside factors, how could I forget.

Awell, I use sigils for frisbees now.

EDIT:

Quote:

the only thing that forcibly "blends" the pvp and pve is the skill grinding and rune grinding. the fact of the matter is, if pve players choose not to pvp, then they never have to. Thus, this "connection" between pve and pvp is only one way and not the revolution as many had hoped. however, in blending pvp (fps) and pve (rpg), you have inherant problems as they're two different types of games. This hybrid of the two worlds, Guild Wars, have certainly succeeded in some capacity, but in the process mislead many purist pvp'ers. And as a rpg game, well there's many that seem to have a better storyline, gameplay, and immersion.

Oh come on, you knew lightyears ahead that two aspects with two weaknesses combined would equal two weaknesses combined. It's up to Anet to use the strengths of those aspects to cover up until they can fix the weaknesses. Anet knew what they were getting into, or they should've. I mean, was it really a fluke with starcraft?

Guess SC2 will never come out.

Quote:

I feel that anet needs to be more responsive to the community not only through hard stances in the form of in-game changes, but in clearly written public responses. That way we're be clear what direction the game is going and we could avoid the problem of being mislead . The only interaction between the community and anet is the occasional responses from Ms. Gaile Grey and Mr. Alex Weekes who's responses are shallow and vague at best.

Hidden message sama, you know as well as I do their trying to buy time, because such big changes can make or break the game and company. I just hope by giving them time, they will be able to cover up both weaknesses. You can easily interpret the messages if you look at it from a company/business point of view. And while parts of the post are honest, the intent is still to keep customers happy and as content as possible until they can fix it. Some of us would probably like it if they just spilled out the beans, so that we can give our input, but that's a rather bold business decision which has a short and dangerous history.

Khrysyl · May 30, 2005, 09:22 PM // 21:22

People who like PvE are less qualified to talk about PvE than people who don't like it?

What is this nonsense? Oh, that's what it is, nonsense!

AirOnG · May 30, 2005, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khrysyl

People who like PvE are less qualified to talk about PvE than people who don't like it?

What is this nonsense? Oh, that's what it is, nonsense!

People who do PvP must do PvE to be competitive. These types of people generally understand the PvE aspect and balance much more intimately than traditional PvEers and have invested far more time into it. There is a bitter irony about it.

This is why it is so silly when PvEers lambast PvPers by claiming PvPers just find PvE too hard and want "godmode" and everything handed to them. It's just a huge non sequitur.

Luggage · May 30, 2005, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Airong: separate ladder for pvp with no major, sup or elites?

Would be balanced...

And some people who "want it all" can do that in the "old" ladder...

Xellos · May 30, 2005, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khrysyl

People who like PvE are less qualified to talk about PvE than people who don't like it?

What is this nonsense? Oh, that's what it is, nonsense!

Compare me to The Virago or RedFang. Nothing personal, but from what I can gather, I've played alot more PVE then both these people, because it's required for my PVP. My one retired character probably has more hours then all of theirs put together. Therefore, this qualifies me automatically as a PVE player already.

PVE players in purist form when casual are not going to rush through the game, therefore they cannot see the economy, and if they are very easily pleased, they cannot be very picky, and cannot see the flaws that other people with higher standards can see. From how the story is expressed throughout the game, to the replayability, to the skill system and distrubution, all these things I know from the back of my hand because I was forced to play through it. Don't get me wrong, I love both aspects of the game. PVP, PVE, it doesn't matter to me. But I fail to see how someone who hasn't even been "taken out of the matrix" can qualify over me.

Quote:

Airong: separate ladder for pvp with no major, sup or elites?

If you take out the runes, there would be complete chaos. Currently, almost all top builds are based off superior runes in some way or another. It's fine as it is, so unless you can justify this, don't argue.