Curse

SpeedMann · May 30, 2005, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celes Tial

Because the game is all about PvP, and PvE is just an added gimmick. One that I enjoy immensely, though. But while PvE will be lots of fun for me for a couple more months, I know that in the end, all I will be doing is PvP. An UAS button would make PvE pointless, and thus unenjoyable.

I support an option for PvPers to unlock their skills gradually through PvP without needing to participate in PvE at all. But I am very much against an option to have everything unlocked without any sort of effort or time investment. Then we'd really have CS in a fantasy setting.

Wow, PvE just an added gimmick. Laughing now......wait....wait...I think im stopping....Why would Anet spend so much time making a story driven RPG if PVP is the only thing that matters. They could of finished the game years ago.

PVE is a bigger part of the game than the PVP side. PVP is nice and all. Both PVE and PVP play there parts in this game.

NiknudStunod · May 30, 2005, 03:40 AM // 03:40

This game is balanced towards pvp not pve which means that pvp is the driving force of this game. The PvE is the side quest you have to do to compete in pvp. The day they reinstate the UAS button is the day I put GW back on my comp. If I wanted to PvE I would play EQ2 or WoW. I came here to pvp.

DarrenJasper · May 30, 2005, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedMann

PVE is a bigger part of the game than the PVP side.

I love how PvErs decide which part of the game is more integral by... counting up the areas. "Hey, there are 3 dozen mission areas and only SIX ARENAS!!! PvE must be WAY more important!" lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by niknudstunod

This game is balanced towards pvp not pve which means that pvp is the driving force of this game. The PvE is the side quest you have to do to compete in pvp. The day they reinstate the UAS button is the day I put GW back on my comp. If I wanted to PvE I would play EQ2 or WoW. I came here to pvp.

Glad someone gets it.

NiknudStunod · May 30, 2005, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boris_714

lolol Ya must be stoned all ya need is 1 room and ya have a PvP game the PVE is 90% of guild wars
Besides if GW isnt on your computer why are ya in here???

The majority of the players will have more time played in "that 1 room" then in the other 90% of the game.

The reason I still post here is because I was hooked on the game in BWE and I still have hope that the game will be like it was then.

MindBullets · May 30, 2005, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Unlocking skills is one thing.
If that's all you want, more power to you.
Giving you access to items that you haven't EARNED is another problem in and of itself.
The problem with just unlocking UAS is that you'll be severly gimping your PvP character by not having the weapons available to those that actively upgrade their equipment to better serve them in PvP.
I personally have no issue with the skill being available to folks that don't want to play the game for the "story" side of it.
Much like Tribes, Counterstrike etc.
I wouldn't mind having it available to test out build ideas in PvP.
Your request is simple enough, as stated before however; you'll be destroyed by guilds that take the time to get the items that will lead to your downfall.

Mind

DismalClown · May 30, 2005, 04:54 AM // 04:54

I'm going to quote myself

Quote:

Originally Posted by DismalClown

I don't have a problem with what are you asking for, but the games designers may. They may want the "grind" an integral part of the game for a reason.

Now I'm going to quote someone for ArenaNet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

<snip>
Now, I honestly don't think we're likely to do a sudden reversal and "throw the doors open" with a massive change like UAS. There is a game design vision for Guild Wars, after all, and our team is and must be guided by that, even while listening and responding to positive and helpful suggestions for change that will make the game better.
<snip>

Why are two groups of game players arguing about a point that isn't up to us anyway? When did us gamers get employed by ArenaNet to be on the game design comity?

The Virago · May 30, 2005, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfang

Unlock All Skills. He wants to press a button and have access to all skills his two professions offer for use in PvP.

I could not possibly care less about PvP or its ranking system. With that said, I think you should have to earn your abilities just like the rest of us. Stars knows, it has taken me a while to get the groove about what it is to be a good mesmer, and how best to combine mesmer and monk to be a good all-around player, someone that can be counted on in a pinch.

Why should or would you expect anyone to grant you all your skills at once so you can pwnz0rz better when the rest of us have to earn them? I see no reason other than the same old 'NOW NOW NOW' mentality... meh, no sympathy here for that, sorry.

In closing -- it used to be that PvP players took pride in earning their abilities and honing their skills. Today it's just a bunch of screaming id's who want the fastest road to the "73mp£473 0ƒ Ð00m" and frankly, ruining the PvP experience for everyone involved. One of the reasons I no longer bother with PvP of any sort, frankly.

You want skills? Earn them like the rest of us.

Jackell · May 30, 2005, 06:17 AM // 06:17

So many responses, that I'm not going to read every single one, forgive me if my reasoning has already been mentioned.

The way I see it, splitting it in two would be bad. First off, you have your people who do PvE, unlock their skills, join a guild and GvG, and can only play other PvE people, while PvP's can only play other PvP's.

So what happens when the PvE wants to try out a new build for their PvP? They can only test it in the PvP aspect, and can't practice it with their guild, thereby throwing off the real perception of how it can be used. Then the person has to go through the game from start just to see if this experimental build works, and instead of playing with the characters they want to play PvE with, have to play with this build.

I pvp and I pve, and I see this move as limiting the PvErs, and making them have to restart. They may not mind playing, but that doesn't mean they want to start all over again just to see if this works, and just like you want to play how you want, they have the right to play how they want.

Sure, they could just create the PvP version and keep it on the PvP ladder, but then they couldn't play with their guild. And what's the fun in that?

Red Locust · May 30, 2005, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Ok, so follow that logic a bit further. What you're saying is that guild wars pve doesn't have any sort of compelling reason to play it after you finish the game.

If it can't stand on its own, why is being rammed down the throats of anyone who wants to play the portions of the game they like (pvp)? If you can't see yourself, as a person who likes pve, playing the game after you finish the missions - how do you think people who hate playing through pve more than once feel now?

This is like saying you need to beat the single player portion of doom 12 times before you can pick up the rocket launcher in multiplayer.

Regardless of what you think of the grind (since this isn't an "OMG too much grind" thread), having a separate UAS ladder will kill the PvE. To have an option of unlocking all skills for a PvP character might or might not be a good idea, depending on the balance issues that may arise, but to separate the whole community in two would be a stupid move that I'm sure ArenaNet won't make.

Bamelin · May 30, 2005, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Originally Posted by Grimpaw
In essence, UAS is in the game *already* - however it is only available to those with gobs of time. Making it easier to access UAS just makes it more casual-friendly and thus more fair to all types of players.

Jackell · May 30, 2005, 06:47 AM // 06:47

The way I see it, characters should be able to unlock skills in pvp. Perhaps for every 5 wins you get (not consecutivly), you get a skill point that you can use to unlock a skill for the pvp characters. However, to balance it, maybe there's a ladder in the skills you have to follow, a la Diablo 2 style, and you can capture elites from other players.

Perhaps in the Droknars forge and Lions Arch arena's, since you get Guild Rankings for GvG and Sigils for HoH. It could add a reason to pvp in those arena's, which I know some people are looking for.

The Virago · May 30, 2005, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Well, another possibility would be to allow the classes to "copy" skills from those they have defeated.... say, every X number of battles, if there is someone who is the same primary/secondary in the opposing team, you can choose one of their skills/elites to make your own.

That way, there is not only more 'oomph' to winning, but those who are exclusively PvP can learn from one another.

Elite skills should, I think, remain the way they are... but once they're 'in the system' so to speak, they can be 'looted' just like any other.

I know that would be spicy -- anticipation of finding a new elite skill on someone I just killed.

Well... if I were still doing PvP. (grin)

Aria · May 30, 2005, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Hello everyone,

For anyone reading this thread, you might notice the large number of deletions. Most of them were for an off-topic discussion on flaming, and others were just unconstructive, period. If you really want a discussion on the merits, benefits, uneffectiveness, and/or futility of flaming, please start a new thread.

Please keep this discussion free from flaming. I don't want to hear "Grind threads have evitable flaming," "It's their fault," "He started it," "My dog died so I have to take it out on someone else," or "lololol! You're silly!" Please please please stay on-topic, and when you post a reply that you think brilliantly smashes the opposing argument, KEEP PERSONAL ATTACKS OUT OF IT.

Also, please give reasons for your opinion -- people really can't read your mind, so a one-line argument is.. well.. lacking to say the least.

Let's all keep it constructive.

Thank you,
Aria

Tanik · May 30, 2005, 07:31 AM // 07:31

I like these newer posts with the compromises, but i still feel the need to post about this.

Ok, i am mainly a PvE player, and i cant count the number of times ive been told to "not compare this to MMORPG's since its totally new" Well, STOP COMPARING THIS TO FPS, (pardon the caps) Its not counter strike, this is a new breed of game. What kind of genre is it considered? To me it looks like an RPG, which kind of RPG dosent really matter. MMORPG, CORPG, even single player RPG's all envelope one idea... character development, as you progress, new things are unlocked/opened up. Even in 3rd person action adventure games (the legend of zelda, devil may cry, etc.) which imo are not RPG's there is a passage of progression where your character gets better over time, there is no "levels" on them, mearly.. upgrades. Now this game does have a level, no matter how insubstantial, it does have progression, to me it looks very much like a RPG, albeit a new refreshing type of RPG, its an RPG none the less. You need to EARN what you want in end game, it shouldn't be given to you. Now earning this through PvP or PvE is still up in the air, honestly i wouldnt mind being able to unlock skills through PvP so long as it was on par with unlocking it via PvE but an UAS button would destroy this as an RPG.

Anyways thats my 2 cent's make of it what you will, flame or do not it dosen't matter to me, ive spoken my part.

*edited for typos, pardon me if i missed any its abit late here

*

Celes Tial · May 30, 2005, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedMann

Wow, PvE just an added gimmick. Laughing now......wait....wait...I think im stopping....Why would Anet spend so much time making a story driven RPG if PVP is the only thing that matters. They could of finished the game years ago.

Even you will understand why, someday. I have hope for you.

Maybe we'll talk again after you have finished the storyline in only 2 weeks.

Klael · May 30, 2005, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celes Tial

Even you will understand why, someday. I have hope for you.

Maybe we'll talk again after you have finished the storyline in only 2 weeks.

I can finish a full fledged story book in a couple of days. What's your point?

The devs want this to remain as one game. Not 2. Bringing the UAS button back is only going to solve this in the short term. Have you thought of any of the potential long term effects? PvE is not an after thought or a side game as some like to call it. The amount of content is far more than what PvP currently have to offer. Both the PvE and PvP requires tweaking and improvements and the UAS button is not an option. It'll split everything into 2 and if any one side is disintegrating, it'll bring down the other as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiknudStunod

I agree with the OP. I had more hours played during the last BWE weekend then I have had from release to present day. I have not only stopped playing completely but I have also stopped friends from purchasing the game because of this one issue. The guild I was part of in WoW has not bought the game because of my warning and that is over 35 people. Now this is a very small % when it comes to world wide sales but I am sure there are a lot of people put off by the grind issue.

Warning WoW PvPers about the "grind" in GW's PvP? I'm amazed..

banished · May 30, 2005, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klael

PvE is not an after thought or a side game as some like to call it. The amount of content is far more than what PvP currently have to offer.

uh what is there to do in PvE once you Finish all the Missions, have top notce gear and have Finished all the Side Quests ?

Xellos · May 30, 2005, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

This is not necessarily true. The 'convenience' of the merged systems is that it provides content where there is none by artificially linking the two systems together. If you remove the grind inherent in pve gameplay to get the runes, are you really kililng anything bad? Do people point to that aspect of gameplay and say 'yes, this is what i love about this game'? If anything, this gameplay gives bad impressions to everyone forced to do it, thus making the gameplay 'added' detrimental to the games overall lifespan.

But your assuming PVP is perfect. Even right now, people complain about air eles, tombs, v-blocking, etc etc. The more seperated the systems are, the more demands and expectations there are. It doesn't matter if there are small portions that makes people happy, it'll force the players to move on and whine about something else. At this point, people complaina bout air eles, but they don't go OMFG THIS IS RIDICULOUS IT IS PRIORITIZED OVER GRINDING, no, people will wait. What happens when grind problem goes away via a fasttrack solution? All the other problems that are even harder to work out become immediate. Then you have the fact that since the solution was never a good one, it creates problems of it's own.

Quote:

The only thing I dont like about Xellos is that his post are neither constructive nor convincing.

And who have you convinced? I'm sorry, but next your going to tell me Ensign's math is wrong. Stop posting things that you can't prove.

Quote:

And yet you have people say "it's too haaaaaard. It's not faaaaaaair. It's a griiiiind." You have got to be freakin kidding me?? I have played most of the major MMOs and I have to say anyone who claims these things could never make it out of the noobie yard in any of them.

If it's really that easy, get all the item/rune unlockments and I want perfect item unlocks. I'll give you a month. Then if you do, I'll buy your account for 200 dollars. Wanna try without grinding?

Quote:

Why would we ever want the company to spend its time and effort just to support 2% of the people wanting UAS.

2%? Where did you get this figures from? I didn't know we lived in the Matrix and you had direct control and could spy on every players mind.

Quote:

I'm sure all of the rest of us want their resources spent on developing the wonderful game that we have now instead of wasting it on a few who cant get all the perks at once.

That's beautiful. That's like saying the world doesn't want to buy apples, they want to buy oranges.

Quote:

actually when you consider the amount of content outside of the arenas you have to wonder if the pvp areas are not little sandboxes in a much larger playgrond

Agreed. Beyond tombs and GvG, arenas are jokes. 4v4 Team arena has the potential to be respected and covetted just as much as tombs, yet isn't because it has no prize, no rank, no nothing. The CTF arena was awesome, and showed potential for multiple scenarios which could lead to more variety in builds. Where else can you use a W/R runner build? Nowhere.

Quote:

I don't think you understood me. It's not that there aren't enough PvEers to fill the PvE ladder, it's that everyone who finishes the campaign wants to go play with the big shots, where all the competition is at. And they won't be able to do that, since the PvPers will be on a separate ladder. So more and more people will start to ditch the PvE and play exclusively PvP, meaning the PvE quickly loses its appeal and falls in popularity. Pretty soon the PvE competitive play is dead and only "noobs" play in the PvE tombs. Nobody bothers to go through the missions, not enough people to fill PvE mission groups, RIP PvE.

Plus, PVP would then be extremely picky on balance. Look at games like wc3. Anything that has more factors then starcraft is pretty much deemed as impossible to balance. Guild Wars has alot more factors then wc3. People pick at classes and skills that don't belong to their strategy or their preference, people start getting more aware, people get more pissed and angry because their senses evolve past that of the developers and therefore are angry that the developers cannot keep up. Look at warcraft 3. It became pathetic because Blizzard failed to keep up with the balance. By the time it even became decently balanced, everyone left. All because PVP had much more to it then PVE. No one cared about campaigns, no one cared about tower defense unless you were a casual non-pvp player. Hell, even DOTA got pickied to the point where EUL couldn't keep up, and that isn't even an official map of the game.

Quote:

Well here is what Gaille had to say regarding UAS:

Exactly. The real meaning behind her post was that Anet never planned guild wars to be perfect. You can't possibly expect a game to live forever (unless your starcraft) in pvp, so you have to figure out what kills a game. At this point, people leave games from either being overly tired from grinding, or plain imbalances. One comes from RPG type games, one comes from PVP type games. Sadly, Guild Wars is a hybrid of both, therefore having TWO weaknesses. How do you combat two weaknesses? By having the two aspects work together. Otherwise, they die just like any other game.

Quote:

I could not possibly care less about PvP or its ranking system. With that said, I think you should have to earn your abilities just like the rest of us.

Don't take this personally, but this is exactly the kind of statement that makes people not want to even read the rest of your post. You basically just said "my way or the high way nah nah nah". Why would people take you seriously? You've already concluded that you are 100% for your side and that even if hell froze over you would still call hell the hottest place there is.

Quote:

Regardless of what you think of the grind (since this isn't an "OMG too much grind" thread), having a separate UAS ladder will kill the PvE. To have an option of unlocking all skills for a PvP character might or might not be a good idea, depending on the balance issues that may arise, but to separate the whole community in two would be a stupid move that I'm sure ArenaNet won't make.

Actually, is is completely dependant on the balance issues and replayability. Look at games like magic the gathering, only the most hardcore of players or new players play that game. If you cannot keep the game interesting, it will fail. PVE keeps it alive in that you don't have to PVP, you can walk around towns, help some people, be stupid. I don't care. The grind is ironically what slows down people from DEMANDING balance changes, because people are so caught up farming runes, they have no time to realize what's imbalanced and what's not. Even the best of the best can't possibly know all the exploits without having all the stuff unlocked. I'm simply saying that you should give Anet a chance to use this time to fix the balances, because the grind is currently their only excuse if they all of a sudden fail to fix a balance issue. Multiple screwups lead to a large portion of gamers leaving, just look at warcraft 3.

Don't any of you remember those conspiracy theory things? Where it's better to have a labelled and clear enemy, then starting to dig for one from the inside out killing your side in the process. Illuminati or something right? I don't remember, point is, grind is the common enemy, the terrorists of today, if you take them out, people are gonna start complaining about stuff that you aren't ready for. Anet is a company, their survival comes first.

NiknudStunod · May 30, 2005, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klael

I can finish a full fledged story book in a couple of days. What's your point?

The devs want this to remain as one game. Not 2. Bringing the UAS button back is only going to solve this in the short term. Have you thought of any of the potential long term effects? PvE is not an after thought or a side game as some like to call it. The amount of content is far more than what PvP currently have to offer. Both the PvE and PvP requires tweaking and improvements and the UAS button is not an option. It'll split everything into 2 and if any one side is disintegrating, it'll bring down the other as well.

Warning WoW PvPers about the "grind" in GW's PvP? I'm amazed..

I am not sure what you are trying to say with that last quote.

Xellos · May 30, 2005, 12:53 PM // 12:53

He means to say WoW PVP requires alot more grind. And it does. But WoW isn't GW, it doesn't have high expectations by it's fanbase, because it was never advertised as such.