Curse

Lazarous · May 29, 2005, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Xellos, i'd argue that the game is already split in two. What a.net did is try to lash the two disparate parts together with duct tape, then add a heaping dose of bad gameplay taken from crap like WoW and EQ.

AirOnG · May 29, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

it was my way of pointing out that there can be two sides of an extreme

That's not the other side of any extreme that I posed. I claimed that there should be two seperate ladders with the exact same arenas and such. The only thing I can assume is that you're trolling or are not reading my posts.

Corwin_Andros · May 29, 2005, 07:11 PM // 19:11

I look forward to competing in a high level Pvp environment level.. some day. Actually giving the PvP UAS folks a place to go play where they don't impact the rest of us that either want to take the time to enjoy the PvE content fully.. or just plain need a slightly less hyper competative way in-game to practice PvP in a manner that the devs wanted wouldn't necesarily be a bad thing.

I'd even be more inclined to to play more PvP if I actually stood a better chance at my personal skill level. It's hard to enjoy the game right now even with the top clans in a constant run for the top. We casual PvPer get completely decimated as we should by these powerhouses, but it gets disheartening when end the end about all you do is provide someone like Idiot Savants with a nice stepping stone to their next HoH victory.

Put these folks in a place of their own and. I do think that it might actually be encouraging to the average player if they knew they might actually have a chance at winning PvP. Yes I know that everyone has a chance, but being a bit more realistic I know that my PvP skill level is lacking. It will take my guild a lot of time and practice before we are ready to compete with the big boys in any meaningful way, regardless of what we unlock for ourselves.

I guess that is why I have had a harder time accepting this whole level playing field gambit.. I know for a fact that although I'm a decent player, even if I had a fully tweaked character and my entire team did as well, that a good team with even the stock pvp characters would likely mop the floor with us for quite some time to come based purely on overall skill at PvP.

eventhorizen · May 29, 2005, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Whats the point in doing ranked GvG? Whats the point in doing HoH? Whats the point in rank and fame?

To win. For the chance to be named number 1. To beat everyone else and be ranked number 1, be the best.

Now wouldnt having 2 ladders completely and absolutly undermine the whole point of competitive PvP in the first place?

Ok I can understand that there are people who are impatient, who despise the PvE, etc. etc. but I cannot see anyway for you to get what you want without imo ruining the game.
The suggestions are split the playerbase into PvE or PvP (by adding UAS to PvP only builds), split the player base into PvP only competitions with all skills etc, and a PvE where you need to 'grind' your character out then fight.

If you do that you kill the PvE aspect of the game, because people will reach level 20, realise its a competitive PvP game but they cant access competitive pvp, realise its not your average social mmorpg like WoW or Eve bin their PvE and go get maxed out pvp only chars.

Nah what your asking for is a massive, possibly fatal change to the entire mechanics of how the game works now, and its method of continuing longevity.

I would say personally the way the game is now might not suit everyone, but if you ingore the absolute impatient players that must have it now for whatever reason, I think Guild Wars future success depends on just how a.net manages to hold and update all the aspects of Guild Wars as one unique
interlinked game. any seperating of the two aspects, and segregation of players will be the first step on the road to death. Maybe not in a few weeks, but soon enough.
I think GW success will depend entirally on how PvP and PvE are updated, how they depend on each other, how basiclly the WHOLE game feels after several months of playing for a player, several months of hard effort to get to the very top through pve-ing for character perfection and pvp-ing for gamewide fame and honours.

I guess it depends just how hard people wish to fight over the honour of being crowned number one of guild wars. If its felt as an epic challange, a legendary attempt, and brings with it fame and renown due to the actions everyone else will undertsand you have had to undertake to achieve that glory, then I guess the game will have a very long life indeed.

Mormegil · May 29, 2005, 07:13 PM // 19:13

(I'm copying my post from the other 2+pages thread concerning grind, which will probably be abandoned since this is newer and more specific)

Ok then, the example you made about Call of Duty did fit. For some reasons, though, the UAS doesn't feel right. There must be some work-around.

Since we're talking about wasting time, I'll be more specific. A pro guild will get an Elite Skill in about 4-5 hours. Double the time if the boss doesn't spawn right or if bugs occur. A semi-serious guild will probably spend, say, 12 hours. Now, consider this: those hours should be fun. To get an elite skill, you should be forced to travel to a godforsaken far far away land with atrocious mobs. It should be fascinating, compelling, challenging. As things are now, most of the times it is not.

I agree with you on one thing: boss' random spawn is annoying.

I don't agree with you on the UAS button: AirOnG made an excellent comparison betweeen GW and Call of Duty pvp, but such a comparison has its limits. This is a (or, at least, sort of) MMORPG: think of your character as a hardened veteran who acquired some uber items and skills by fighting ferocious enemies in far away regions. This is the reason why your character is a little bit better and can beat many of his challengers in the long run.

FelineFury · May 29, 2005, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Xellos, i'd argue that the game is already split in two. What a.net did is try to lash the two disparate parts together with duct tape, then add a heaping dose of bad gameplay taken from crap like WoW and EQ.

I woudn't compare this game to any other because it has a lot of innovative features. Lvl 20 cap, map travel, instanced pvp. Well the last one isn't innovative but it's pretty much all made with good intentions. I just don't buy WoW's balancing crap. It hurts the game period.

AirOnG · May 29, 2005, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corwin

I guess that is why I have had a harder time accepting this whole level playing field gambit.. I know for a fact that although I'm a decent player, even if I had a fully tweaked character and my entire team did as well, that a good team with even the stock pvp characters would likely mop the floor with us for quite some time to come based purely on overall skill at PvP.

That's how it should be. It should be entirely based on player skill and not because the other player had an unfair advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

I don't agree with you on the UAS button: AirOnG made an excellent comparison betweeen GW and Call of Duty pvp, but such a comparison has its limits. This is a (or, at least, sort of) MMORPG: think of your character as a hardened veteran who acquired some uber items and skills by fighting ferocious enemies in far away regions. This is the reason why your character is a little bit better and can beat many of his challengers in the long run.

That's because you're falling into the mindset that MMORPGs by their definition somehow require a grind and the ability to gain an unfair advantage purely because you did a repetitive task over and over again and someone else can't afford that timesink. They do not. A good competitive environment should not have those aspects. If Call of Duty had something similar, it's be totally assinine. But that's exactly what's happening in Guild Wars.

goku19123 · May 29, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

I don't like any idea that splits the community into two, as a remedy for any situation.

Clearly, it comes down to: Have you ever been in any Arena, and you win, then it says "No opposing party has joined." and the countdown starts over again?

I bought this game for PvP, and I want to fight as many people as possible.

As much as I want more people to fight, I'm sure that any self-respecting PvE'er does not want to go into a ghost town looking for teammates - and that IS what's going to happen if you split the community, disparaties of population on both sides.

Xellos · May 29, 2005, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Xellos, i'd argue that the game is already split in two. What a.net did is try to lash the two disparate parts together with duct tape, then add a heaping dose of bad gameplay taken from crap like WoW and EQ.

Did I quote you? By the way, the game isn't split in two technically, rather PVE is just done half-baked, completely not thought out in terms of game mechanics, and have a few issues with PVP. The main factor is the last minute distribution of skills and limited choice in them. The way they made the skill system is complete crap. Elites were already a bad idea, but it never affected the grind process or the replayability process. It just limited strategies. Whereas how the distrubtion worked, your completely screwed.

Basically the content of PVE doesn't allow good use of all the skills, and therefore doesn't build up to PVP well. If you were allowed to buy any skill at any trainer and have more assorted enemies, you'd find alot more strategy and replayability.

Quote:

Now wouldnt having 2 ladders completely and absolutly undermine the whole point of competitive PvP in the first place?

Only the PVE one. That place would be abandoned.

FelineFury · May 29, 2005, 07:23 PM // 19:23

I think you have a point, the new "break" dosen't justify it's existance.

AirOnG · May 29, 2005, 07:23 PM // 19:23

I think you guys claiming that people playing PvP all the time and not playing PvE with you are being a bit selfish. If they do not wish to play PvE, why should they be forced to?

Loviatar · May 29, 2005, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

That's not the other side of any extreme that I posed. I claimed that there should be two seperate ladders with the exact same arenas and such. The only thing I can assume is that you're trolling or are not reading my posts.

i was making a general post and did not mention you in any way so i was not responding to your post

anybody was free to shoot down the idea (which they did) without taking it personally

i was not going after you as i said before

Xellos · May 29, 2005, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

I think you guys claiming that people playing PvP all the time and not playing PvE with you are being a bit selfish. If they do not wish to play PvE, why should they be forced to?

It's a nice plan you had, playing the guilt card on this thread, but look at it this way, you'd have to cut the community in two, therefore each community is smaller. And since each community is seperate, yet has it's own respective and unpartable qualities, it forces players to spend time in either both communities or just one. This makes the game less replayable. PVE is already a joke for replayability, and PVP doesn't have enough scenarios to make it fun, coupled with the fact that there is only 2 ladders, makes Guilds and good teams the only desire in PVP community, which makes casual players even more screwed. All in all, it rips apart the community slowly, because the game isn't even near perfect yet in neither aspect, therefore by ripping them apart your just giving it a short boost of happiness before it dies even faster.

FelineFury · May 29, 2005, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

I think you guys claiming that people playing PvP all the time and not playing PvE with you are being a bit selfish. If they do not wish to play PvE, why should they be forced to?

Why should i be forced to go to work every day?
Why should i be forced to clean kitties box?
Why should i be forced to do grocery, laundry and cleaning?
Why should i be forced to type on a keyboard to post?

Xellos · May 29, 2005, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelineFury

Why should i be forced to go to work every day?
Why should i be forced to clean kitties box?
Why should i be forced to do grocery, laundry and cleaning?
Why should i be forced to type on a keyboard to post?

Because the world is imperfect, and you do not have enough control over it. Anet has enough control over the game to fix these things, why are you trying to drag them down? Is letting them not continually strive for perfection a good thing? Is letting them fall to the standards of Blizzard, where your servers at launch don't even work a acceptability?

If you have the power, use it responsibly. There's that spiderman saying or whatever that resembles it. Anet has the power, let's see if they become spiderman, or become some screw up.

AirOnG · May 29, 2005, 07:39 PM // 19:39

A valid concern, Xellos, but I think the game community will actually be stronger because of it.

FelineFury · May 29, 2005, 07:39 PM // 19:39

What i really meant is i understand the game is asking you to get the skills and that you think it's a grind. The suggestion to implement UAS is interresting and will be considered along with the cons. The breaking of PvP into pieces is a good idea but it might cause less population available to PvPers of either group and would require additional ressources.

Lazarous · May 29, 2005, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Did I quote you?

Is that a requirement for responding? ;p

Quote:

It's a nice plan you had, playing the guilt card on this thread, but look at it this way, you'd have to cut the community in two, therefore each community is smaller. And since each community is seperate, yet has it's own respective and unpartable qualities, it forces players to spend time in either both communities or just one. This makes the game less replayable. PVE is already a joke for replayability, and PVP doesn't have enough scenarios to make it fun, coupled with the fact that there is only 2 ladders, makes Guilds and good teams the only desire in PVP community, which makes casual players even more screwed. All in all, it rips apart the community slowly, because the game isn't even near perfect yet in neither aspect, therefore by ripping them apart your just giving it a short boost of happiness before it dies even faster.

PvE has its own problems, but why should they drag down PvP as well? By seperating the game in two you have more options to make each part better, because you don't have to deal with the various feedback loops inherent in a combined system. You could add all sorts of pvp arenas that have wildly different rulesets and balance them against a set standard of items/runes/skills, not worrying whether certain players would feel left out because they don't have all the goodies they need. Similarly for pve, in that you could change balance for the zones independant of how it would possibly affect the pvp portion of the game.

Mormegil · May 29, 2005, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Ah, don't you worry guys.

Whiners like Xellos were there even when Diablo 2 was out, claiming "the game will have a very short life span because it's repetitive and too similar to the first one".

Predicting the future with that surprising confidence sounds a bit arrogant to me. You say this game is doomed, it will not last much, basing your "curses" on no impartial analysis of it. I'm sorry to ruin your visceral pessimism, but the game is having an astonishing success everywhere btw

This is heavy criticism, I hope you dont take that as an offense. Cheers.

Lazarous · May 29, 2005, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Mormegil's post is amusing. You do realize that xellos is arguing against the UAS dual ladder system proposed by the op?

Reading comprehension. It's your friend.