Curse

Shaquira · Aug 03, 2005, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Templar

the best way is not to sell at those high prices but if you have any good items sell cheaper at a fair price the more who do this will help lower the prices and less are likely to buy at those stupid prices or go off to ebay to support botters

This would not help at all.

Botters and smart traders will buy up every item that is being sold under the "going rate" and sell them again at the higher price.

The only way to stop any of this is realizing you do not need a 100k weapon. It is only marginally better then any free max damage weapon drop.

Furthermore you do not NEED the 15K or fissure armor because is isn't better than the normal max armor in droknar's.

I have played 2 characters through the PVE part. NEVER bought a weapon or item off a player except for dyes. NEVER sold items to a player. Both chars have droknar's armor, decent items and 40k in storage.

YOU DO NOT NEED IT

You only need the expensive stuff if you want to be and look the best you can be.

Be warned though

Even with the best weapons, items and armor you are nog guaranteed to win. A highly skilled player could beat you, even with inferiour equipment.

So where is the challenge?

For me it is to be effective and successfull without the uber expensive uber l33t stuff. The need to have those item or be utterly useless is what drove me away from games like everquest.

Shaquira

Shaquira · Aug 03, 2005, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shagsbeard

Anet just needs to catch some of the ebayers, delete their accounts, and the rest will soon realize they stand to lose more than they stand to gain.

You are talking about a multi million dollar business.

It cost A-net more dollars to positively detect and ban a botter than it would cost to start up a new one.

The guys/gals doing this are not only in GW. Even if we could temporarily stop them in GW buy a complete and total boycot by all players they will just sit it out and return later.

As said in computer security ... no system can ever be completely safe unless it is turned off, packed in concrete and sunk 50.000 miles below sea-level. (and even then it can still be compromised with determination and the right tools ;-) )

The same goes for MMORPG when it comes to botting

Shaquira

P.S. killing all outside access to the GW program won't work. As a simple example .. your mouse driver is an external program interfacing with the GW program etc etc. Not to mention ppl with alternate input devices to replace the mouse/keyboard for gaming.

Darkrouge101 · Aug 03, 2005, 08:23 AM // 08:23

I'd just like to say that the Ebay portion of nearly any MMORPG can basically never be shut down.

1) Ebay makes money off of these transactions, so they won't be inclined to stop them.
2) Theoretically these players are not selling the in game items, they are selling their time and effort in finding those items in game, which has no relevance to anything in game (Basically they are selling their own time and service in playing the game)
3) I don't doubt that perhaps some devs or inside people in Anet may be in fact aiding the Ebay market. Good way to make some extra cash on the side.

Ashley Twig · Aug 03, 2005, 08:43 AM // 08:43

eBay: As far as I know, eBay-rules don't allow the trade of items that can't be physically passed on to others.
e.g. a year ago someone auctioned a "New Folder". He claimed to have created it accidentally on his desktop and had no use for it and wanted to sell it.
That item was removed because it violated eBay rules (at least in germany)
So the same should be true for in-game items.

bots: how exactly do they work? do they use the MS-windows eventhandler to send mouse/keyboard events to the applicaton?
If so, "simply"

have the guilwars.exe listen to the hardware directly instead of using ms-windows routines; if that is, at all, possible.

I don't know to much about programming, so I'm just speculating here.

Chev of Hardass · Aug 03, 2005, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Everyone read this again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

Why don't they create a non-grind environment by not nerfing everything they can find instead? It's particulary unfair for the newer players who have never had an access to easy farming areas. All they have done by nerfing is supported elitism and created a resentment among those who missed the chance. Selling gold and items on eBay is an another side of the same problem.

Here come the punchline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

In fact, nerfing in Guild Wars does not make sense at all, as this is not a game with a monthly subscription fee that would benefit from creating a time-consuming grind environment. All it achieves is increasing the personal wealth of the already rich players. So why is it that getting gold and items has been made so hard? Why are my level 20 characters almost like dead slots because I can't afford the time it takes to make them PvP-ready? Sure, they've introduced faction points which are easily farmable, but it doesn't make my PvE character more useful. I need perfect items to gain that all-important edge in PvP, and they cost more money than I've made in all my 400 hours of gameplay. They could at least free the slot for a new character after I've finished the game, so I wouldn't have the temptation to delete it along with the 100% explored Tyria map.

After all, I bought this game to compete with skill, not my ability to waste time.

And as for all the hypocrites that can't stand other players making money from Guild Wars: blame A.Net for deliberately making gold this scarce instead, if you must. The sellers are just satisfying a demand, not scamming others. Stop trying to enforce your gaming style on people who aren't as grindfest-loving as you, and spare us your zeal and intolerance. It's not even in A.Net's interests to ban them, because it would hurt the future sales.

I have three level 20s, all ascended, only one has not beaten the game, and that one is at Hell's Precipace and will beat it within the next couple days, if I get my act together.

I don't take any of them into the Tombs or GvG. They are not flexible enough for PvP warfare. My W/Mo is fine for PvE, but for PvP my warriors are W/Ele, W/Mes, Ele/W. or the occasional W/Smter. To get all the skills I would need for all these professions I would need a lifetime, just to get the skill points. The armor is another argument, because as a tank is PvE that jump to 85 is nice, but in PvP, who cares, give me energy. The attribute point thing can be gotten around on the secondary, by changing secondaries, but on the primary, it is just easier to delete that PvP only character and remake.

I say this an I have the weapons and armor and money I need, but the way the game is set up it is impractiacal to create a useable PvE character to use in PvP. Save for some Monk and Ele builds, but I still experiment too much to be able to make one character to play long enough to ascend with.

I would like to be in a GvG match showing off my uBer LeEt weapons and armor, but alas, no.

MSecorsky · Aug 03, 2005, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orochim4ru

Yeah, the activities at emberlight are VERY obvious. The fact that every suspicious player stops and offers money for random trades, for example, is indicative of bot like behavior.

Also, i offered a bot 1 gold and it gave me a hundred in return. Very suspicious indeed.

I think you may have discovered something new... bot-farming!

Hmm... wonder if it'll work...

Lorelei · Aug 03, 2005, 06:24 PM // 18:24

oops, i heard a goldrush: botters create bots to farm bots.

MSecorsky · Aug 03, 2005, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Would be an interesting way to maybe shut down some bots... just go take their gold away. I'm going to give it a try this eve for gits and shiggles, see what happens...

generik · Aug 03, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Templar

Its good to see some are aware of who is at fault here and not GW for having to make changes
the more gold there is on ebay then the higher the prices are for gold weapons etc, why? because it becomes easier to buy gold off ebay and people are willing to pay for it
Having bot spammers selling items at high prices new people see it and think there is no way they can pay those prices so they go off to ebay
the same can be said for black dye and shards and obsidians they buy up and sell on ebay
So where does that leave the honest player basically screwed
People who buy gold or items off ebay are supporting botters and stuffing up the game for themselves as it get to the point we have to depend on ebay for gold etc
the best way is not to sell at those high prices but if you have any good items sell cheaper at a fair price the more who do this will help lower the prices and less are likely to buy at those stupid prices or go off to ebay to support botters
I did notice in Seekers when they had botters running there, they would have an idle char next to the way point these bots would be able to use the idle char to click on and locate the portal there are some guilds involved too
a number of bots will run off one idle char. they wear the cheapest armour
Stupid names (as if they dont know English) random vocal msg which doesnt mean anything. if you stand in the right place they click on you as if to group up (its not its to find their idle) then they get confused
Yes I do believe they are running them in the American and European servers so they dont screw up their own server
you will notice an increase in lagging
They run through the same district usually district 1 and you will not see them on any other district

Riverside is hard to spot as the group is standing some distance off from the portal but its possible to run a bot down a path once they local a idle
Do think it will be easy for GW to make some change in Riverside to widen this area like the other towns
you will see some bots trying to run down the path but start to run up the hill then stop and try again
Go back after 2 hour intervals and see if they same bots are running and then again after another 2 hours
Its no good to say to Gw there are bots in Riverside if you keep a log of the district and times and note the idles in the town and the names of bots and the guilds they are in
Than I really think Guildwars should also make it known that any guild that is supporting or running bots they are at risk of having their guild disbanded closed
Also anyone who is involved in any conversation with people running bots should log that conversation and report it
Some people dont seem to understand how bots are really screwing the game up for us all
I for one an against bots hacks cheats etc because it takes away the fun of a challenge and the spirit of team play in all fairness
Nothing better than to high five the team mates and say we beat them fairly with skill thats a buzz not having to cheat or rely on something else

What kind of code have you been writing for 15 years?

I'm pretty sure anything like this requires hardware support... DRM...

Sorry, but no thanks.

Fatalis · Aug 03, 2005, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

What kind of code have you been writing for 15 years?

You quoted the wrong post.

Nisha · Aug 12, 2005, 12:59 AM // 00:59

I've never flamed anyone in my life, although I have been flamed and I certainly don't intend to start now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

I'm not saying what you're say I'm saying at all.

It is the real world currency that holds an objective value, and Guild Wars gold with a value particular only to a given person. Which doesn't make it (the value) any less real.

Yes I understand that, that why I said it would be nice if the value wasn't real to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

Also, I would like to ask you how exactly do you think our experience is "marred" by these sellers?

Well, heh, to be honest you've actually caught me a little there. I have not had the game very long, so I have not experienced the days of glorious loot. So currently I am satisfied with what I have, not really knowing anything better. But, if Anet's solution to Bots is to nerf, then that too will go downhill. Currently, that seems to be the only solution to Bots that they have come up with, or decided to implement. To Nerf...I have read their statement regarding how they are trying to solve the problem which might have unfortunate consequences for players - it's somewhere on their website...So thing is, until they decide to do something different, they are going to keep nerfing because of the bots, and it looks like things might get worse before they get better. That's how I see bots affecting the game experience.
Here's the thing though - I'm not holding out for a fix all - I mean look at the advertisements that scroll across the top of this forum, all the popular online games have been affected by botting and ebay sellers. With that much trouble that none of these game companies seem capable of solving, it might be a long time (or never) before we see a solution that might not adversely affect players.
I don't see just dumping tons of gold in as a solution either. What happens when you drop tons of money into an economy? As I understand it (economists feel free to correct me) It becomes worthless and inflation hits the roof. The Japanese found this out in WWII when they overprinted money to create the famous - worthless, banana notes. You'd have to carry a plastic bag full just to buy a tiny bar of soap, and it would still be out of reach of the poor. The black market kicks in, and who can afford those items? The rich.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

So why is it that getting gold and items has been made so hard?

Actually, it's not horrendously hard, I think it's worse if you're waiting for items to drop for you, but getting gold itself isn't too hard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

The sellers are just satisfying a demand, not scamming others. Stop trying to enforce your gaming style on people who aren't as grindfest-loving as you, and spare us your zeal and intolerance. It's not even in A.Net's interests to ban them, because it would hurt the future sales.

No they are not scamming, but what they are doing is certainly illegal. Of course, the point of argument to that is that we shouldn't be "policing" what is or is not illegal. But the game companies have made it abundantly clear that it is, and they will try to put a stop to it. I have questioned whether or not they really do ban the accounts, and I think they do. Secondly, it's not possible to force these players into anything, as is clear from their proliferation. Most people are just expressing an opinion, they won't actually be able to stop them cold. It's like the hydra.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

Note that I have never used eBay or any other similar service except for Amazon.com in my life, and I don't intend to in the near future. So this is not an justification to buying gold from farmbotters or sweatshop workers, it's just a protest against the stupid groupthink in these forums.

Well, there's an interesting debate right there. Sweatshop workers are downtrodden, get no rights, are poorly paid and only serve to make the man on top as rich as possible. But they are there because they feel that being poor is better than being dirt poor. Even that $1.50 an hour is preferable to nothing. So what happens? We raid the sweatshop and send them on their way back to being "worse off" because it is "good for them" to not be toiling under abusive conditions. Yet it is also terrible if we don't, it's possible to try for alternate forms of aid, but you can't catch everyone who slips through the cracks. - Anyway, back to the quote...
"stupid groupthink" - and I will call myself a hypocrite right here because I know there are times when I believe that phrase too. But still, it's a double edged sword. Even minorities are groups that engage in groupthink. All people engage in groupthink it just depends on what side you're on for you not to understand the other. I think you're doing a great job of trying to understand the botters and ebay sellers, but unfair to simply label the other side of players "stupid groupthink" without doing the same justice you have given to them.

Fatalis · Aug 12, 2005, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisha

Yes I understand that, that why I said it would be nice if the value wasn't real to them.

That's a very unreasonable wish, because in this age our time is more valuable than ever. And it's definitely a good thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisha

So currently I am satisfied with what I have, not really knowing anything better. But, if Anet's solution to Bots is to nerf, then that too will go downhill.

What do you have?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisha

Currently, that seems to be the only solution to Bots that they have come up with, or decided to implement. To Nerf...

IIRC they said they'll unnerf it once they've found a better way to stop farmbotting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisha

That's how I see bots affecting the game experience.

A.Net is just using them as an excuse to nerf. They've given us hints that they don't really like farming before. See here, a couple of random quotes from A.Net:

Quote:

However, it's fair to say that we do not actively encourage an excess of player farming. Some players insist that farming is the only possible way to achieve their objectives. I would say that farming may be a way, but it is not the only way. There will be future changes that will address our intention not to penalize farmer-type players, but instead to make playing through the game lucrative and rewarding so that farming is perceived as what it is meant to be, just one of many gameplay options.

Quote:

This isn't to say that every single update is going to delight each and every player. With any given update there is going to be a certain percentage of players who are not happy with the changes. For instance, some players were really into the whole process of farming for loot, and today they're concerned about the recent changes that made farming less profitable. But the game is undergoing an evolutionary process, and some of the concerns being expressed in the short-term will be addressed with planned alterations in the longer term. It may not be apparent where things are moving, but positive and satisfactory changes are in the works and will be incorporated into the game with the same care that we have shown with all the other updates. On the other hand, players who had expressed concerns about having difficulties in capturing skills are delighted with the new Signet of Capture system, and there seems to be universal approval for that change.

And so on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisha

What happens when you drop tons of money into an economy?

I'd say that creating an inflation was mostly the fault of regular hardcore farmers, not botfarmers. It's just a speculation, though. What's really funny is that the nerfing has done much more to create an inflation than farmers ever could.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisha

Actually, it's not horrendously hard, I think it's worse if you're waiting for items to drop for you, but getting gold itself isn't too hard.

I can tell what is hard for me and what is not by myself, thank you. And I consider the current situation hard enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisha

No they are not scamming, but what they are doing is certainly illegal.

I bet this thought of somebody violating the EULA keeps you awake at nights. I mean, it's horrible!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisha

Secondly, it's not possible to force these players into anything, as is clear from their proliferation.

I was talking about grind monkies who go "ban everyone who cheats by not having to grind for gold". People have better things to do than grind, but they will still want that FoW armor. So what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisha

I think you're doing a great job of trying to understand the botters and ebay sellers, but unfair to simply label the other side of players "stupid groupthink" without doing the same justice you have given to them.

Good job, you just refuted a strawman.

Mo/R9 · Aug 12, 2005, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

Correct me if I am wrong, but after nearly a decade and a half of programming experience, I am faily certain Anet has the ultimate solution to bots:

Hard-code into the game engine itself, their implementation tools, their live client support applications, and their network (server side and client) framework a block that prevents ANY applications whatsoever from accessing Guild Wars executable while it is resident in the user's system memory.

Now I want to ask: Why have they not done this for every single GOD DAMN MMO out there?

And I answer:

They refuse. It seems to support diversity and reasons for doing major things like nerfs (which I have not yet SEEN much of, despite all the screaming about it).

I mean seriously. These guys are coding guru's (hehe) and they have the ability, resources, tools and staff to program such an amazingly complex game world, keep it running live, and maintain all the bells and whistles, why can they not seem to figure out that bot programs only work as spoofers, which seek out the game client they are specifically written for, and null their access to the program as a whole, even with it NOT running? It makes so much sense, and yet no one has bothered to say this out loud, and I have kept silent about it for months. It simply is a shame.

Cmon you coding badasses, kill the bots in the womb, so we can end the tirelessly stale debate!

I see one problem with that, what if the bots aren't accessing the game, merely imitating the signals sent to the CPU from the mouse and keyboard using screen coordinates?

Quebec Osti · Aug 12, 2005, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

Correct me if I am wrong, but after nearly a decade and a half of programming experience, I am faily certain Anet has the ultimate solution to bots:

Hard-code into the game engine itself, their implementation tools, their live client support applications, and their network (server side and client) framework a block that prevents ANY applications whatsoever from accessing Guild Wars executable while it is resident in the user's system memory.

Now I want to ask: Why have they not done this for every single GOD DAMN MMO out there?

And I answer:

They refuse. It seems to support diversity and reasons for doing major things like nerfs (which I have not yet SEEN much of, despite all the screaming about it).

I mean seriously. These guys are coding guru's (hehe) and they have the ability, resources, tools and staff to program such an amazingly complex game world, keep it running live, and maintain all the bells and whistles, why can they not seem to figure out that bot programs only work as spoofers, which seek out the game client they are specifically written for, and null their access to the program as a whole, even with it NOT running? It makes so much sense, and yet no one has bothered to say this out loud, and I have kept silent about it for months. It simply is a shame.

Cmon you coding badasses, kill the bots in the womb, so we can end the tirelessly stale debate!

Not so easy... no matter how hard Anet try, ppl will always find some ways of decompiling the client, figure out what packet does what and so on...

Bots that directly interfer with the game (sniffing/sending packets...) can be made very impratical changing the packets values often via patchs (wich anet alrdy does well i think) but you cant detect them and "null their access to the program as a whole" as they work externaly from GW and send packets the same way the game client would.

Other type of bot is a "macro bot" that simply mimic mouse mouvements, clicks and keyboard press. These are even harder to detect as they dont interfer with the game's memory itself, they simply make a repetitive sequence of mouse movement,clicks and keyboard press just a human would do or take "decisions" based on pixel recognition (the color of a range of pixels to detect if a blue, purple, gold item droped for example)

johnnylange · Aug 12, 2005, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions

Wrong Drakron.
ArenaNet have nothing against "honest farmers" as Gaile Gray stated in the "petition to stop nerfing the hell out of us" thread.

I just went to ember light camp district 1 and announced that i would be reporting all spammers and potential bots.
Within seconds, the spam reduced by half.

The rest, i whispered and some gave no response. I did have a response from two of them.

One said "sm shi ?"

The other said "what?" (i ended up having a converstaion with this person...although i had to wait a while for him to translate into chinese)

Some definitely proved to be bots because of their lack of response and overwhelming ignorance.
/report

LMAO! You must be one of those "Rent-a-Cop" that chases after underage smoking teens hanging around the outside of malls and movie theaters. What a joke dude, get a life or play the game.

neoflame · Aug 12, 2005, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

Correct me if I am wrong, but after nearly a decade and a half of programming experience, I am faily certain Anet has the ultimate solution to bots:

Hard-code into the game engine itself, their implementation tools, their live client support applications, and their network (server side and client) framework a block that prevents ANY applications whatsoever from accessing Guild Wars executable while it is resident in the user's system memory.

DirectInput/Direct3D API hooks...

OP: If my English was abysmal and I had someone I didn't recognize flaming me in PM's I probably wouldn't reply either.

Nisha · Aug 12, 2005, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Oh boy, I think you and I are at crossways in understanding one another

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

That's a very unreasonable wish, because in this age our time is more valuable than ever. And it's definitely a good thing.

Really, as I've been saying all along, yes it Is unreasonable and I don't expect it to happen...I think I mentioned that at least twice before. I'm not sure why people think I'm trying to force people to change their ways when I've said "wishful thinking" so much

Oh well, can we leave this alone now

Yes it's a dream - a very farfetched one...impossible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

What do you have?

I have the current situation of what people claim is a badly nerfed game, because I only started two months ago - as I said, I didn't play during the glorious days of loot drops.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

IIRC they said they'll unnerf it once they've found a better way to stop farmbotting.

Great, I'll be waiting with my fingers crossed...(I am sincerely not being sarcastic, please don't read it that way.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

A.Net is just using them as an excuse to nerf. They've given us hints that they don't really like farming before. See here, a couple of random quotes from A.Net:

"There will be future changes that will address our intention not to penalize farmer-type players, but instead to make playing through the game lucrative and rewarding so that farming is perceived as what it is meant to be, just one of many gameplay options."
Okay, but aren't botfarmers more effective than people farmers and more of a farming threat? That might be how they looked at it, without realising that botters don't care, they'll make their money regardless. The quote also seems to say that they don't mind player farmers. So could it be perhaps that they are unintentionally driving out the player farmers that they are okay with, while intending to drive out the bot farmers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

I'd say that creating an inflation was mostly the fault of regular hardcore farmers, not botfarmers. It's just a speculation, though. What's really funny is that the nerfing has done much more to create an inflation than farmers ever could.

That's interesting, made me realise I've been looking at this from a pure gold point of view and neglecting the items...*sits in the corner, musing*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

I can tell what is hard for me and what is not by myself, thank you. And I consider the current situation hard enough.

Yeesh, it wasn't a personal attack. I think you said "I think it's hard. I feel like I should be getting more out of the GW experience." and I said "I think it's not hard. I'm quite satisfied with what I have been getting."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

I bet this thought of somebody violating the EULA keeps you awake at nights. I mean, it's horrible!

There's no need to get snarky. I wrote a lot more than that and it wasn't "argh it's illegal therefore it should be banned."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

Good job, you just refuted a strawman.

I can't have refuted what wasn't an argument. I was merely pointing out that calling things "stupid groupthink" isn't a great way to engender understanding. It seemed to me through reading your post, that you were giving the botters and gold buyers the consideration of understanding, but not doing the same for the players whose opinion is to go "bot-hunting".

None of the opinions I have expressed constitute a command for anyone to think like I do. That's what a discussion is.

harry healblood · Dec 09, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Seriously I havent a clue!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Call me a noob if you like

Harry

Yichi · Dec 09, 2005, 04:37 PM // 16:37

a bot is a computer program that gives a pre calculated response or action. they can be programmed to play the game or spam and complete trades for you and are a complete pain in the ass in most games as they can ruin a games economy quickly or just be a general annoyance

BTW thread necromancy sux

harry healblood · Dec 09, 2005, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Thanks