Curse

Paul Templar · Jul 30, 2005, 04:52 PM // 16:52

this is only a thought dont know if its a good idea but anyway lets see
The amount of money they are making off ebay is not much in some countries but is a lot in some other countries so they can get away with making quite alot out of it
What if GW set up selling on ebay themselves at a very very low rate this will make it unprofitable for anyone wanting to sell on ebay etc and it will satisfy the ones who have to have the expensive gear and have gold etc as to me it doesnt make sense at all as to why they are playing in the first place
And as it is free to play online wouldnt this be used to add on to the game like new areas so we all benefit by it and those who wish to pay to buy gold can support in adding to the game play rather than it working against us?
Also put in a really stupid high return on gold rare items that way there will be less need to farm and by getting a high return from the merchant might that mean people will less likely sell to other players?
see too many lope holes already will leave this post see what others think
No its best if possible bots were reported still and for GW to monitor those accs and logs for possible abuse
Problem is GW has made this a free online game and the amount of resources time and energy put into tracking bots must mean they are less able to focus on the game play and creating a more enjoyable game for us all
So there really has to a be a quick fix more or less once and for all so bots will find they get nothing out of it
Remember they dont care about the players or the game they are only out to make money out of Guildwars and off players

Ilya Khan · Jul 30, 2005, 08:53 PM // 20:53

I have an idea...
Go to Ember Light Camp district 1 - You should be able to spot at least 8 bots.

Go to Riverside mission district 1 - at least 10 bots.

Their names usually start with Pt.

"Where does this idiotic notion that all Chinese people are bots come from? This is all just some mass fear of another culture. The same way you act with the Koreans. The same way alot of people did durring the Cold War."

You must not be too bright, are you?
Log on at any time to see 1 person in the same place going over and over and over again saying the same thing in Mandarin Chinese. And I have no idea what this has to do with the Cold War. It is as if someone speaks Nicaraguan and also cheats, you accuse us of fearing them from some random event in the early 1900's.

GW Monkey · Jul 30, 2005, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

Hard-code into the game engine itself, their implementation tools, their live client support applications, and their network (server side and client) framework a block that prevents ANY applications whatsoever from accessing Guild Wars executable while it is resident in the user's system memory.

Uh, that's absurd. Ask anyone who's done any systems design or driver development or just any architecture-specific Assembly programming. They can never prevent it, even if they coded their own OS. Half the time they'd be lucky to detect it! It's not their fault; the main culprit is modular programming and hardware abstraction (i.e. "drivers"). We're all running code on the same framework under the same rules. You put a value onto a buffer. You move it into a memory location. You later retrieve that value. This is how I get you. You can add all the validity checking you want for that value; it's only a matter of time before I convince you it's a legitimate value through various means.

But this is farmbotting. We're not talking about code alteration; we're talking about driver hook bots that are watching the video data and doing scripted keyboard / mouse movement based on what they "see". Technically they're not hacking GW at all... this is nothing ANet can prevent or even complain about. These types of bots don't touch GW code. They are just sitting in between and sniffing. (FRAPS works this way.) The only thing that makes this a bannable offense is using it to gain an unfair advantage which is a EULA violation not a legal violation.

re: real hacking, all you can do is slow down a sufficiently motivated individual. The harder you try to stop them the more challenge is perceived thus the more dedication in busting your code. You want to stop them? A .45 slug to the forehead is a good method. Or girls. (gettin' laid == The Great Distractor.)

Orochim4ru · Jul 30, 2005, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Adding a second running executable which monitors the access of memory used by GW is an option. Some companies have already used such defences which have largely been successes (altho they require a significant amount of updates

OldIronBalls · Jul 30, 2005, 10:36 PM // 22:36

exactly what is a bot ?

sometimes i leave pc on with game running and just forget.
not farming or playing,yet by these rules am i a bot ?

Mormegil · Jul 30, 2005, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldIronBalls

exactly what is a bot ?

sometimes i leave pc on with game running and just forget.
not farming or playing,yet by these rules am i a bot ?

No, but if (while youre away) your char goes in and out of town hundreds of times spamming obscure, scripted sentences, then chances are:

1- You're a botter

2- Your PC needs an exorcist

Sunrazor · Jul 30, 2005, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

No, but if (while youre away) your char goes in and out of town hundreds of times spamming obscure, scripted sentences, then chances are:

1- You're a botter

2- Your PC needs an exorcist

I do this. I yell things like "OLD MACDONALD HAD A FARM, T-R-O-L-L!" and "Griffons are the capitalist oppressors of the masses! Workers of Tyria unite!” And then I run off to farm. Mostly that's just because I'm weird.

Numa Pompilius · Jul 31, 2005, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orochim4ru

Adding a second running executable which monitors the access of memory used by GW is an option. Some companies have already used such defences which have largely been successes (altho they require a significant amount of updates

Possibly, but Punkbuster is a resounding failure. It took the hackers about a week to figure out that they could a) change text and recompile and Punkbuster didn't recognize the hack; actually it was often sufficient to just rename the executable, and b) make the hack a "driver" and hide it in protected OS memory space, where Punkbuster couldn't see it at all.

I heard that Battlefield 2 uses Punkbuster and Starforce, which is like the grand slam of useless copy protection software. I don't play BF2, but if it isn't overrun by hackers yet, it will be very shortly.

Fatalis · Jul 31, 2005, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

It took the hackers about a week to figure out that they could a) change text and recompile and Punkbuster didn't recognize the hack; actually it was often sufficient to just rename the executable, and b) make the hack a "driver" and hide it in protected OS memory space, where Punkbuster couldn't see it at all.

If all PB did was scan the memory for known public hacks you could just use a simple packager or even hex editing to avoid being detected. I assume that in reality it might be a little more complicated than that, with something like heuristics and monitoring changes to memory involved. After all, hacks literally destroy the game (and the developer's image) and with a high-profile product like BF2 the drive to hack is just huge, and they must have foreseen it.

Whatever the case, I just checked one of the popular hack repositories and there seems to be more than a few undetected ones available. If somebody like DICE has problems with this, do you think that A.Net will be able to stop cheating in GW where there's real money involved? Why I bet the hacks Chinese use are even public, but only to those who can read in their language. And if A.Net manages to shut some of them down, new holes will be found, and they'll be wasting even more time working not on new content or features, but on ways to counter the hacking.

In short, my point is: don't pay for GW items with real cash.

Numa Pompilius · Jul 31, 2005, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

If all PB did was scan the memory for known public hacks you could just use a simple packager or even hex editing to avoid being detected.

One'd assume that, yeah. In reality PB spent the first two months of operation with Americas Army: Online not detecting anything at all because of a bug, which amazingly went undetected by their QA, and yes, hex editing DID fool PB.

Quote:

Whatever the case, I just checked one of the popular hack repositories and there seems to be more than a few undetected ones available.

Yes, they're hiding in protected OS memory space, where PB can't see them at all. PB is utterly powerless against them.

Quote:

If somebody like DICE has problems with this, do you think that A.Net will be able to stop cheating in GW where there's real money involved?

Well, let's not confuse issues. ANet can stop hacks where PB fails, because there's nothing on the client computer to hack. All interesting stuff is on the server, streamed on demand. Oh, you can hack the interface, you can make bots and scripts - but you can't, for instance, give yourself unlimited energy and health.

Quote:

Why I bet the hacks Chinese use are even public, but only to those who can read in their language.

AFAIK they use scripts, not hacks. That's easy enough to do yourself should you want to. There's very little point, though I suppose that's never stopped people before. Americas Army: Online is a free game without any rewards other than the gameplay, and there's probably more cheaters than legit players playing it (and it's "protected" by PB too). Why they cheat? I have no clue.

Quote:

In short, my point is: don't pay for GW items with real cash.

Definitely agreed there.

Fatalis · Aug 01, 2005, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Well, let's not confuse issues. ANet can stop hacks where PB fails, because there's nothing on the client computer to hack. All interesting stuff is on the server, streamed on demand. Oh, you can hack the interface, you can make bots and scripts - but you can't, for instance, give yourself unlimited energy and health.

On the contrary, the client-server paradigm applies to both of these games, so A.Net can't really do more than DICE. You can't, say, turn on godmode in BF2 by hacking your client unless you find a bug by reverse engineering, because there is no way to negotiate that change in your local data with the server. However, you can change the way the game appears locally by hacking your graphic drivers or use DLL injection to make the game aim and shoot for you.

The main difference between GW and BF2 is that the items you posess in GW are persistent, there is a demand for different items and a virtual economy based on that demand. So instead of hacks that give you inhuman reflexes and visual aids, you would want to get hacks that automate grinding to get items. Which is what people claim some are doing now.

GW Monkey · Aug 01, 2005, 02:21 AM // 02:21

I don't want this bot hunt to get too off-track, but that's incorrect. I hang out on many forums including a few that are populated with, uh, "alternate" programmers. GW code impresses a few of them, and annoys the rest. It's the ability to checksum yourself, being that it's online only, that gets them. Currently they bitch about a 10-second rule; both the executable and the netcode. There are a couple speed hacks but if you get beyond what the server thinks is a legal value it snaps you back. And there's obviously some realtime checksumming going on, the bitch posts are as informative as the what works/what doesn't threads. Don't worry, what can be hacked will be hacked, including any anti-cheat system you can dream up.

But you're missing the point: These bots are not hacking GW code. They don't even touch it. There is no legal violation, it's an EULA violation. They are dxhook'ing, they basically "watch" the video and playback scripted keypresses / mouse movement based on what they "see". (FRAPS kinda works this way, as do many FPS aimbots.) There is nothing ANet can do about it, and I can get a bagfull of cheap EFF council to prove it.

That's not to say they can't ban for it; they can ban for just about anything they want. And depending on how widespread it gets they can always try C&D on the grounds that the bots are affecting their revenue because it hurts sales of their product with a negative image of a cheater's paradise. (many have tried, but it's expensive and very hard to win, and hackers are usually poor, usually underage kids... why bother?)

Course I'm not a lawyer so assume all this is lies and disinformation.

Now if you think you've seen the worst of the bots, you are sadly mistaken.

A dxhooker bot can make a perfect healing/conditions removal machine, a perfect interrupter machine, etc. Even an add-on that just watches chat do automate the more tedious tasks for human players... "I have Spiteful Spirit on me!" to which my HealerHelper v2.0 catches and fires off a hex removal w/o me doing anything, and prevents me from moving and breaking the cast until it's done. Oh yea. Whatever you can think of, someone is already working on.

Anyway, back to the farmbot hunting! (grabs torch and pitchfork)

Dax · Aug 01, 2005, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Evidently there is good money in what hardcore botters do, if there was no demand you'd probably see less bots.

On a completely side note I can't help but notice gil/gold selling banners on this website for other MMORPG games.... gee.

Orochim4ru · Aug 01, 2005, 04:02 AM // 04:02

If Anet stated that any ingame materials/accounts were their property, and as such unsellable except by them, then they could go after the botters for selling online. They wouldn't, however, be able to anything more than ban the botters in game. Legal precedent is with them if they do so following a few cases of litigation from japanese multimedia studios who were able to recieve compensation when their fansubbed works were sold.

The items in game are intellectual and material property of X legal identity of their choice, and as such, any sale from someone other than X constitutes fraud in that they're misleading people into buying goods which aren't for sale. Furthermore, if X can prove that the botters are detrimental to sales of their product, they can litigate on those grounds too.

I have no idea why Anet hasn't banned the obvious botters in ember light: they consume server resources, and they degrade gameplay.

All Anet has done is issued a statement that aftermarket addons are potentially dangerous to account integrity. Not much threat if you're the ones making the addons.

Gaile Gray · Aug 01, 2005, 04:55 AM // 04:55

I'd like to make it very clear that ArenaNet most decidedly does not have an anti-farming policy. We most decidedly do have an anti-bot policy. Sometimes the two impact upon one another. But we do not address any problems with a specific area in order to tamper with farmers, but only with those who are botting.

Again, there is often a spill-over effect, and sometimes the areas being botted are the same areas being farmed. In those cases, naturally we must act, even if it might appear that we're acting against farmers. But we are not, honestly. We are acting on bots, a continuing and perhaps even growing problem. We will continue to exercise whatever means we can to hinder the use of bots in Guild Wars. If this affect farmers, we apologize and will continue to explain via multiple means (perhaps you can help us get the word out?) that we truly regret any ripple effect, but must take the risk of such in the effort to keep the bots at bay.

Farmers do not have a major negative impact upon the game. Bots do. So we're going to continue to work against bots while doing our best to avoid impacting those who prefer to play the game in a way that's really perfectly fine!

Oh, and we act upon bots regularly; we don't necessarily post about it, but we take action on bots often, as we take action on offensive behavior, scamming, and even offensive names.

Nisha · Aug 01, 2005, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Hmm...but Ebay might be able to shut down listings that we report. Of course, that's not to say that they wouldn't just show up again under different usernames but it might slow them down a bit...Of course the Best thing that could happen was if people realised that they shouldn't be shelling out hard earned real money for insubstantial Imaginary money...sigh. There are so many better things to be spending money on after all...

Stev0 · Aug 01, 2005, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

Hard-code into the game engine itself, their implementation tools, their live client support applications, and their network (server side and client) framework a block that prevents ANY applications whatsoever from accessing Guild Wars executable while it is resident in the user's system memory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions

Do you mind if i email this to support? That's a masterpiece.

Beats my idea i was sitting on...tell the FBI.

Yeah ... his idea is called essentially 'PUNKBUSTER' and if anyone here has ever played old school Halflife before Steam or are currently playing Battlefield 1942 . They will understand that punkbuster is not only USELESS but hurts the honest player by lagging their system with a 3rd party program. The software checks computer operations but is coded by one group and patched occasionally whereas the people who are dishonest get a near instant crack/hack to bypass the system and continue on.

Also current software protections like Starforce install drivers to monitor your system for software that THAT game's company deems 'improper'. These drivers monitor everything thats going on in your system and slow down drive access. Even after uninstalling the game the drivers/access remains behind resulting in either a wild goosechase locating and eliminating such files and operations or wiping the drive and reinstalling the OS. There is a 3rd way but unfortunately I cannot say as the removal is via nefarious means.

So putting in a form of resident scanning system would harm honest people more than dishonest ones.

As for BOT blocking. Where do I sign up?

Fatalis · Aug 01, 2005, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orochim4ru

Legal precedent is with them if they do so following a few cases of litigation from japanese multimedia studios who were able to recieve compensation when their fansubbed works were sold.

No, those works were copyrighted, but the items in GW are not. They aren't IP, and aren't a subject to Berne Convention, so even if A.Net manages to get hold of some exclusive rights to those virtual items, it probably wouldn't apply worldwide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisha

Of course the Best thing that could happen was if people realised that they shouldn't be shelling out hard earned real money for insubstantial Imaginary money...sigh.

Ah, but you're wrong to think that real world monetary systems have some underpinned substance, because the real world money is virtual too. The bills and coins are not made of gold, they're made of cheap metal and paper, and their value is simply a result of an agreement in the society. So the gold in GW is no more intangible than, say, dollars or euros. It is clearly a money object by definition, even though a one that exists in a virtual persistent-state world and does not have an objective value, unlike regular cash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

On a completely side note I can't help but notice gil/gold selling banners on this website for other MMORPG games.... gee.

There are no ads on this site or the majority of other sites I visit for me, thanks to Adblock.

Dax · Aug 01, 2005, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

There are no ads on this site or the majority of other sites I visit for me, thanks to Adblock.

That's cool, but not really the point. The point for all this clammoring about bots and how they affect our gameplay, who cares about the fact this website has ads for other MMORPGs selling items? I looked on one of the advertised sites and they sell Guild Wars gold as well.

Chev of Hardass · Aug 01, 2005, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisha

Of course the Best thing that could happen was if people realised that they shouldn't be shelling out hard earned real money for insubstantial Imaginary money...sigh. There are so many better things to be spending money on after all...

I agree that BOTs are killing this game with a slow blade, but I see a problem with this quote.

Guild Wars is not a monthly pay game. All those peope that gave up WoW and found out that they needed hundreds of thousands of gold to get the items they want are going to be more than willing to pay a few bucks for some gold instead of paying a monthly fee.

We need to be attacking the heart. The companies on E-Bay and the BOTs.

Give me some directions. I can give up some of my time to help out. Even if helping out does mean putting a little more pressure on the powers that need it.