Curse

twicky_kid · Nov 30, 2005, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

As long as it doesn't interfere with the innovative parts, then yes, absolutely. You want the game to have as large an audience as possible. You want to attract some of the other MMO players with the PvE so that they will discover, and hopefully enjoy, the innovative parts of the game, which is where it's really at. (Or at least they bought the game, which is more money to make more expansions that improve everything else as well.) If this were not true, Guild Wars wouldn't have PvE in the first place and this community would be a whole lot smaller.

alot of times i do wish it was smaller

Mimi Miyagi · Nov 30, 2005, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathrielah

People need to learn that interesting and dynamic quests, a solid character progression system, and deep, well-thought out gameplay mechanics makes a great game, not mashing the same buttons and using the same tactics for hours and hours on end ad naeseum ad infinitum.

Soooo....what part of "solid character progression" encompasses reaching lvl 20, ascending, and having the max dmg anything within a month (being generous here)?

Isn't ALL games nothing more than "mashing buttons" using the same tactics for hours and hours on end? Rote motor memory of skills?

And how are GW's quests "dynamic"? Do they change every time you load a mission? If you complete a mission, and run it with another party, is it some how different? The monsters move in unpredictable ways? Different monsters than the ones that were there last time?

A story is only "interesting and deep" the first time you read it. After that, it's repetition.

Zaklex · Nov 30, 2005, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorlin

If Chapter 2 added anything in the way of skills or gear that was more powerful than found in Chapter 1 then people who had Chapter 2 would have an advantage over people who didn't and ANet has specifically stated that this won't happen. So this breaks down to: Chapter 2 has no meaningful content, it's just for fun. For many this won't be a problem, but for many others it most definitely will be.

They've also specifically said that there will be only certain areas were characters from Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 can interact, and that each chapter in and of itself will be equal in content to the original game release and that you don't need to buy each on, you can buy which ever one you want. I can't say anything beyond what I've said, infer what you will.

There's nothing saying that at the same time they release Chapter 2 that new items are added into Chapter 1 that are equivalent to Chapter 2 items, thereby making your above point moot.

twicky_kid · Nov 30, 2005, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaklex

They've also specifically said that there will be only certain areas were characters from Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 can interact, and that each chapter in and of itself will be equal in content to the original game release and that you don't need to buy each on, you can buy which ever one you want. I can't say anything beyond what I've said, infer what you will.

There's nothing saying that at the same time they release Chapter 2 that new items are added into Chapter 1 that are equivalent to Chapter 2 items, thereby making your above point moot.

pvp will most likely have the interaction of chapter 1 and 2. i can imagine 400 more skills with this next chapter. forget balance it would be a totally new game. it would completely break the mold for all of the builds with the current skills.

looking forward to it.

Zaklex · Nov 30, 2005, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

And how are GW's quests "dynamic"? Do they change every time you load a mission? If you complete a mission, and run it with another party, is it some how different? The monsters move in unpredictable ways? Different monsters than the ones that were there last time?

Here is something that was originally discussed as being part of the original release, and for reasons unknown it didn't make it in. We are trying to get them to put this type of quest into Chapter 2, that would make it more enjoyable to play the content more than once.

Dax · Nov 30, 2005, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Am I worried? No, if the game is more of the same I shall play another...simple as that.

I didn't get a chance to read all the posts, but I agree alot with Mimi. You'all should face up to reality that they are not going to change the gameplay that much. If you don't enjoy the PvE now, you probably won't after a couple of weeks of chapter 2 because you will be busting you butts rushing through it to get all the new items.

I remember a day when everyone boasted the level 20 cap saying how we're sick and tired of the level grind. I remember when the storyline actually meant something..... ah those were the days. The games isn't about accumulation?...it's everything about accumulation.

So lets all take bets on how long that's going to last when chap2 comes out.

For myself I do not have 5 blinged out characters (or however many they have..see I don't even know). Do I need to worry about chapter 2? No

Fork in us · Nov 30, 2005, 03:56 AM // 03:56

i'm kinda worried the asasain will end up being the "touch necro" same old poisons nut with no casting range

Vorlin · Nov 30, 2005, 07:24 AM // 07:24

I find the entire 'no level grind' concept to be stupid. If I like playing a game then it's not a grind, if I don't then it's not a grind because I'm not playing it. The GWars team eliminated a 'problem' that didn't exist, IMO. Now, for people who can only play a couple of hours a week it is probably nice that they end up with characters just as powerful as someone who plays hours per day, but is it all that smart to design your game around the people who play it the least? If so, why not make the level cap at 5 so that people who play a couple of hours per month can compete? Why not make the cap at level 1 so someone who only plays once can compete?

As to those who argue that more levels just give a sense of accomplishment, well, that's the whole point of a game. Hell, it's the point of most any voluntary activity. Having my character grow gives a feeling of accomplishment, having my character remain unchanging week after week gives a feeling of boredom. Given a choice between a false sense of accomplishment (and every sense of accomplishment in life is false: you are going to die) and a real feeling of boredom, I'll take the first every time.

And to the couple of people who keep harping on 'Gwars is about brains and skill', is it -really- that hard for you? Because I just didn't find it to require any more brains or skill than any other game I play. -Every- RPG game I play has various character/skill/spell combos to figure out, pretending that this is some unique GWars thing, or that the GWars system is particularly complex when it isn't, is just silly.

And as far as my comment about Chapter 2 just being 'for fun', I thought the implication was clear enough but let me spell it out for those that missed it: Chapter 2 will be only eye-candy if ANet keeps its word about it not being required. The items will be the same, the creatures will be the same, the skills will be the same, only the names and graphics will change (or maybe the graphics won't change, more devourers anyone? *smirk*). A difference that makes no difference is no difference, and the idea of me paying for such a lack of difference I find ludicrous.

Or maybe ANet won't keep their word and Chapter 2 will have unique things, like maybe in Chapter 2 they'll implement all the things players have been asking for the past 6 months but every single patch has ignored (trading system, better drops, more gold per kill, etc.). In which case there would be good reasons for buying Chapter 2, unless you look upon such a breach of trust as a reason -not- to buy it.

So, near as I can tell ANet has backed themselves into a corner with a philosophy that doesn't allow their game to expand, yet it -has- to expand to cover the cost of maintaining it. So they'll offer pseudo-expansions that don't really expand much of anything. I'm sure quite a few people will buy Chapter 2, but I'm betting a lot fewer than would if it actually offered a chance of character progression. And how many will buy Chapter 3 when they realize just how little they got with Chapter 2?

hidden_agenda · Nov 30, 2005, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

Because the White Mantle weren't evil, they were trying to save the world from the Titans, under the guidance of the Mursaat, until you wrecked everything.

ok, i was in the middle of a reply to this but got interrupted by a full day's work...

err... if sacrificing helpless people to empower a magical device, keeping the general populace in a deception, and holding the populace under a religious oppression is not evil, I am not quite sure what is.

the mursaats were keeping the komalie sealed because THEY would be destroyed if it opened. the White Mantle came to power because they were the pawns of the mursaats. to keep that power, they were quite willing to continue serving the mursaat by deceive their own people, picking out some of them and killing them as a blood sacrifice...

i don't know about you, but that sure sounds evil to me...

hidden_agenda · Nov 30, 2005, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

alot of people are turned off of pvp just from the rank system. if you were not around when it started you probly don't have much. if you have no rank you need a team to get rank. to get a team you need rank.

pvp needs a huge overhaul if it wants to keep casual players. pve content is limited and eventually turn to grinding to fill the time. pvp is what is going to keep players here for the long haul. pve content will be added with new chapters but how long is it going to take us to exhaust the new content. compared with chapter 1, not very long.

actually, i think alot of us PvE people are turned off by the "I am better than you" attitude of the PvP people.

case in point: wanting to kill some time, I finally decided to PvP in the competitive arena with my wa/mo. (in case you're groaning, no, i am not taking mending or healing prayers, this is an axe/smite build).

i took the simple strategy of letting the other warrior come to me (they try to kill our monk). my goal is actually simple: protect the monk and kill the incoming melee guys. once we outnumber the other guys, we can concentrate on the other guys one at a time.

it worked fairly well - we won a couple in a row. then the typical PvP stuff started happening with my own team-mates:

"yeah, we totally pwned those n00bs"
"ha lozers"
"we rule"
etc.

since i really dislike this kind of thing, after another victory (but before another match started), i simply tell the rest of the team that i have to go.

really, it may surprise people, but some of us play this game to have fun, not to watch immature kids "pwning" each other.

hidden_agenda · Nov 30, 2005, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorlin

I find the entire 'no level grind' concept to be stupid. If I like playing a game then it's not a grind, if I don't then it's not a grind because I'm not playing it. The GWars team eliminated a 'problem' that didn't exist, IMO. Now, for people who can only play a couple of hours a week it is probably nice that they end up with characters just as powerful as someone who plays hours per day, but is it all that smart to design your game around the people who play it the least? If so, why not make the level cap at 5 so that people who play a couple of hours per month can compete? Why not make the cap at level 1 so someone who only plays once can compete?

actually they did do that. you can create lvl20 characters straight off the bat. there is your equivalent of the level 1.

btw, Vorlin, if you're right, then GW design team is even smarter than I thought. The people that subsidize the game is actually the casual gamers. Think about it -- if you're selling flat fee on accounts and spending money to maintain the server farms -- who gives you more profit? The guys that plays once in a blue moon or the guys that plays every hour of the day.

So perhaps your're right -- they intentionally designed the game around casual gamers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorlin

So, near as I can tell ANet has backed themselves into a corner with a philosophy that doesn't allow their game to expand, yet it -has- to expand to cover the cost of maintaining it. So they'll offer pseudo-expansions that don't really expand much of anything. I'm sure quite a few people will buy Chapter 2, but I'm betting a lot fewer than would if it actually offered a chance of character progression. And how many will buy Chapter 3 when they realize just how little they got with Chapter 2?

This is another point that I agree with. Yes Anet has painted themselves into a corner. To be honest -- perfectly balanced games are BORING. The best games are slightly imbalanced in a way that entertains the players. I have no idea why Anet seems so obsessed with game balance.

Yes, it's important, but it's a GAME -- let people play the way they want.

Finally, while I know that many people on the forum don't care for the story, I am of the opinion that many people (well at least myself) WOULD be willing to spend money on buying a good story. Even if there aren't any additional levels to be had.

ok, i've rambled too many times in this thread...

Red Sonya · Nov 30, 2005, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Oh? And what part of the current game is NOT long, tedious grinding?

Grinding for faction? grinding for ecto? Grinding for rares? Grinding for greens? Grinding for fame/rank emotes?

How much skill does it take to run IWAY? Spirit Spam? Ranger Spike? Air Spike? Any other FOTW?

You say it's NOT materialistic? ROFL. Yeah, I guess FoW armor, Gold max dmg GODLY fellblades, black dyes, Eternal Shields...yeah, not materialistic AT ALL.

The game is nothing but materialistic, except it's materialistic over cosmetic items. Vanity over substance.

But if you want to keep repeating the mantra "skill and intelligence" perhaps someday it will come true. It's just not true RIGHT NOW. Hasn't been for ages.

Has been for me, I made 20 in less than a month. Found the necessary items to get a max dmg weapon or two with all the trimmings (low cost since it doesn't LOOK pretty), the same armor stats as anyone wearing fissure. I see no grind, see no materialism, nor does phat loot even enter the equation.

You DON'T NEED FISSURE ARMOR to be the same as anyone else in STATS. You DON'T NEED A FELLBLADE or CHAOS AXE or GHASTLY BOW (or whatever it is called) to have a weapon with the same stats and same effectiveness as any of those mentioned above.

If it's materialistic YOU made it so, if it's a level grind, YOU just want something TOO DARN EASY, (cause in a month of casual play anyone should be level 20 with any brains). And as far as phatt loot goes, no one "NEEDS" phat loot, it's just something you go after if you want the fissure armor. That fissure armor once again is no better, not one iota better than 1500gp armor in stats. So, you're just quite mistaken about it being a materialistic game. People make it so, because it's not.

I can stand toe to toe with anyone in fissure armor wielding some pretty fellblade or chaos axe or scykle (sp) or any weapon for that matter.

It's SKILL and INTELLIGENCE as I said and if you had any intelligence you would see that.

Red Sonya · Nov 30, 2005, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Lol Who are you preaching to Mimi Miyagi? Nobody is listening to you, especially the "casual" players. This is a great "casual player" game and guess what? Casual players makeup the majority of the fanbase for most all the mmorpgs/mmogs except for maybe (Shadowbane which was a failure because they tried to cater to the "hardcore" which you represent yourself to be).

GW's has reached the million sales mark, and still "growing" not deminishing. Sure, some people will play the content and leave, people in most mmorpgs only get to play "some" of the content and leave. One thing about GW's you can definitely see ALL the content as a "casual player". It's what drives the game and gets NEW BLOOD.

We don't care if you or a bunch of "hardcore players" leave. There will still be 100's of thousands of "casual players" that will still remain.

So, if you're wanting materialism, elitism, phatt loot and I'd have to say a much much harder and LONGER level grind, go play any other mmorpg out there. Whether you want to believe it or not, this is not your "standard" mmorpg, it has elements, but, there's no "raiding", or uber elite gear to be had that anyone else can't have in this game with a little time.

I can take a blue collectors item(s) and make the same thing out of them some gold million credit item is going for. Wow, it won't be gold weapon, but, Wow it sure hits like one.

You're just in the wrong game, as I see a few others are. You expected a FREE mmorpg lol and that ain't gonna happen.

I too will be one of the first inline to buy the 2nd chapter. If you're not here, oh well, more for me. But, your soapbox isn't doing a bit of good. Those that are going to leave are going to leave of their own accord and not yours. And also you're not a Guru and you're not a prophet, so, you cannot declare whether GW's will rise or decline. All mmorpgs decline over time, so that's pretty generalized I can even say that, wow I'm a GURU! lol

But, when you get down to FREE vs $15 a month for even more level grinding, more elitism (look what i got you ain't got), more crap, I'll stick to FREE any day.

And personally after having played those elitist mmorpgs, there is no level grind in this game whatsoever. It is so easy to level and it's so easy to get the armor and weapons to compete with anyone else in the arena, which leaves SKILL & INTELLIGENCE as most important in this game than materialism or elitism. I love that about this game.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Nov 30, 2005, 10:57 AM // 10:57

I really really really hate to say this because it's so cliche but....

Go play WoW. If you want the traditional MMO with the higher level caps, uber items, grind, etc etc, go play that. It makes no sense complaining about GW having none of those things WHEN YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WERE GETTING WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE GAME.

It's like buying apple pie and you complaining that there's apples in it. I really don't understand you people.

-Loki- · Nov 30, 2005, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by hidden_agenda

the mursaats were keeping the komalie sealed because THEY would be destroyed if it opened. the White Mantle came to power because they were the pawns of the mursaats. to keep that power, they were quite willing to continue serving the mursaat by deceive their own people, picking out some of them and killing them as a blood sacrifice...

Like I said, the White Mantle weren't evil. They were being used. But, really, if the Mursaat were'nt getting rid of the chosen, the flameseeker prophecies would have been completed earlier, and the world would have been pretty much destroyed by the Titans and the Lich King. They were trying to stop that. Their methods were just brutal, very brutal, and they were trying to save themselves, but in doing so they are saving the world. Thats not to say they weren't evil, but the White Mantle weren't.

Makes you wonder about the Seer, and who was controlling the Seer. Was the seer being controlled by the Lich King, or was the Seer just trying to get you to be a genocidal manic and wipe out the Mursaat? Either way, you went along with it. The Mursaat were evil, but the Seer was genocidal, the Shining Blade didn't know what they were doing, and for the most part, you were just being used. The story was a bit better than I think most people saw, but the way the missions are divided, and the fact that theres big gaps between missions sometimes because you can't find a group, the story gets a bit diluted.

Vorlin · Nov 30, 2005, 01:02 PM // 13:02

If the GWars team did intentionally design the game to attract an audience of people who don't play much, that would be penny-wise and pound-foolish. Blizzard proved this with BNet: the more people who played on BNet, the more new people tended to come to BNet to play, which meant automatic sky-high sales on any Blizzard product that utilized it.

Let me plug in some fake numbers to make the point. If on the day Chapter 2 is release, which situation do you think will result in more sales for it:

1. There are 200,000 people playing GWars daily.

2. There are 50,000 people playing GWars daily.

3. There are 10,000 people playing GWars daily.

4. There are 1,000 people playing GWars daily.

I'd say that's an easy call.

When it comes to games with a persistent enviroment the key to success is grabbing a core player base and keeping them hooked, that core will act as recruits for others to keep your base growing. But you have to maintain a certain minium core size, otherwise interest dies out. That's why the hardcore GWars players are so important, not because of their 'leet attitude (if they have one

) but because they are the ones that are spreading the GWars fever.

Red Sonya · Nov 30, 2005, 02:11 PM // 14:11

BS I'm a casual player and I spread just as much good word about GW's as any handful of hardcore players too. That's just total BS.

There are far far far more casual players playing this game and will continue to play this game than there are hardcore players.

You even present yourself and show your elitism by saying "hardcore" rules whether a mmog lasts or doesn't! LOL That's total rediculous and obsurd.

And the numbers are more like this

1. 1,000,000+

2 1,000,500

3 1,001,000

4 1,001,500

5 1,002,000

See how easy it is to turn it around.

For every 1 person that leaves GW's 2 more are taking their place. This game is still being bought as a christmas present today. Kids are turning of age where their parents will let them play a game like this on a "daily" basis.

So, sorry hardcore man, but, you elitiest just don't rule the coop in this mmog, and as was stated, might as well just pack up and goto WOW, this one isn't changing anytime soon.

Vorlin · Nov 30, 2005, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Good God, you're so fired up to confront elitists that you misread my post in every way possible. And this isn't the first time in this thread you've made that mistake in your replies. Get some therapy, or at least find the person you are -really- pissed at and flame them, instead of insulting innocent bystanders.

1. I never said the hardcore players are greater in number, of course they aren't, no game has -ever- had a majority of hardcore players.

2. You are misreading what I meant by hardcore, I mean people who play GWars a lot (daily would be a good example). I don't mean elitists, you don't have to be a min-maxer to play a lot. I mean the dedicated core of Gwars players that stick with the game month after month, the 'hard' core in the sense of persistence.

3. Noting that the number of people in the core group of any MMORPG is a huge factor in its continued success doesn't mean these players are 'better' than other players. But they are definitely what keeps the fires burning, I've seen enough Muds come and go to know that from personal experience.

4. You totally misunderstood my use of numbers so badly that I don't think you even read what I wrote in that area. Go back and read it again.

5. I'm neither a hardcore GWars player nor an elitist, so much for your summation of me.

6. Finally, if you are truly a casual player then your spreading the word isn't likely to matter much. What are you telling people? That GWars is great, look at me, it is so compelling a game that I spend a bit of time on it now and then! I'm sure that made all kinds of people drop what they were doing and go out and purchase it. *laugh*

Dax · Nov 30, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

BS I'm a casual player and I spread just as much good word about GW's as any handful of hardcore players too. That's just total BS.

There are far far far more casual players playing this game and will continue to play this game than there are hardcore players.

You even present yourself and show your elitism by saying "hardcore" rules whether a mmog lasts or doesn't! LOL That's total rediculous and obsurd.

And the numbers are more like this

1. 1,000,000+

2 1,000,500

3 1,001,000

4 1,001,500

5 1,002,000

See how easy it is to turn it around.

For every 1 person that leaves GW's 2 more are taking their place. This game is still being bought as a christmas present today. Kids are turning of age where their parents will let them play a game like this on a "daily" basis.

So, sorry hardcore man, but, you elitiest just don't rule the coop in this mmog, and as was stated, might as well just pack up and goto WOW, this one isn't changing anytime soon.

Yea I keep seeing big advertisements bragging about thier numbers, though I would wonder does that mean current players or total players. Are they counting the ones that have since stopped? Seems to me advertising the numbers is a poor way to promote the game. What matters to me is if its fun.

Everyone at one time loved the level cap, that is what cracks me up the most. I don't think packing it up is a good way to put it. There is nothing wrong with playing another game if you've already ran the couse of GW though. As the devs have stated it's the sort of game you can come back to at any time...oh wait that was one of the reasons for a level cap.

Akathrielah · Nov 30, 2005, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Soooo....what part of "solid character progression" encompasses reaching lvl 20, ascending, and having the max dmg anything within a month (being generous here)?

The fact that you aren't spending 3 years to accomplish those things for starters. Granted Guild Wars PvE is pretty damn awful, no two ways about it. People still don't want to admit that the PvE game was only an afterthought and that GW will always be centered around PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Isn't ALL games nothing more than "mashing buttons" using the same tactics for hours and hours on end? Rote motor memory of skills?

Get seven people together, and try an unrated match against one of the top 20 guilds, hell the top 100, I guarentee that button mashing and regurgitating tatics won't get you anywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

And how are GW's quests "dynamic"? Do they change every time you load a mission? If you complete a mission, and run it with another party, is it some how different? The monsters move in unpredictable ways? Different monsters than the ones that were there last time?

A story is only "interesting and deep" the first time you read it. After that, it's repetition.

I never said that Guild Wars exhibited any or all of these qualities that makes a good game. I said that these are the qualities that MMORPGs in general should have, and are qualities that ignored in favor of grind so that players can have their smug feeling of "accomplishment" and the companies can continuely collect monthly fees. Reading comprehension ftl.