Curse

Inari · Jan 04, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Well, I just had some of the best nuking experiences I've had in a long time.
with two Eles and no MM in SF, we managed to bring down the due of monk and mesmer (was Garbock and Korvald) in less than 30 seconds... this also flated out the surrounding area and no dwarf was left standing.

The thing is, while pugs are about whether you get lucky or not, I almost never get to kill this due on the fly like this with a MM. It was fun as hell until we stopped to laugh about it and the priest ressed them both. We than proceeded to kill them again ofcourse...

varyag · Jan 04, 2006, 12:53 AM // 00:53

1. Grab a tissue and wipe your carebear tears

2. Bring a Snare.
- Water based area snare + your favorite nuke
- Ward vs Foes + your favorite nuke
- Ranger Trapper + your favorite nuke
- Bull's Rush frenzy warrior anyone?

Get creative.

Carinae · Jan 04, 2006, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inari

Well, I just had some of the best nuking experiences I've had in a long time.
with two Eles and no MM in SF, we managed to bring down the due of monk and mesmer (was Garbock and Korvald) in less than 30 seconds... this also flated out the surrounding area and no dwarf was left standing.

That's the second boss pair for FA, and yep, that's a difficult set of bosses for a MM+SS pair. It requires a good and fast pull by the warrior so they can be isolated without minions aggroing everyone in the room.

It can be done, but it requires the team to understand how MM+SS works. But that's really true of all builds, now isn't it?

Mavrik · Jan 04, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

A E/Mo was my first character. With her I got to lv 20 and all the way through the shiver peaks... then the nerf... Now she is no longer fun to play. I had it all worked out to. Everything was fine. Warriors would actually agro a small group around them... monks would heal them... mesmers would interupt the enemy and necros would exploit them. And then there was me... standing a little to the side raining hell down upon their heads. It was wonderful. But now... warriors madly chase around those enemies that now run from firestorm. Its all a mass of confusion, elementalists are worthless now IMO which really makes me sad. I spent most of my logged hours playing as her and now all my wonderful tactics for PvE are useless. Now I play more as my Ranger, Necro and Warrior... my Ele with her 15k sets and awsome rare weapons sits unused. I can't take her anywhere... no one wants to use an Ele anymore. Only use I have for her is back in ascalon when her spells are one hit kills before they have a chance to run lol.

I'm seriously thinking of deleting her and making a mesmer... but I put so much work into her it would pain me to do so... But I have not had the time to sit down and try and figure out what to do with her exactly... or what skills work and don't work. I know its wishful thinking but maybe Anet will balance things out so that the Ele isn't the weakest anymore... they sure fked that up...

Keyote · Jan 04, 2006, 01:41 AM // 01:41

If you play PvE I dont think you'll have much fun with a mesmer. I tried one with an open mind, but the further you get in the game the more useless you feel.

My first char was an ele too, they were great fun to play. Yes they were easy, but they didn't deserve what they got with the AoE nerf.

antialias02 · Jan 04, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

My Mesmer is my favorite character. It's one of the most diverse classes in the game. The only thing it doesn't have is lots of direct damage (though it DOES have lots of contingent damage). The Mesmer isn't for everyone, admittedly, but I like it.

It does seem to be largely unappreciated as a class, though. I don't mind that, really. It's kinda cool to have a handle on one of the least-played classes in the game.

Mavrik, my advice to you is this: find a good direct fire damage build and see how you like it. Try to refrain from putting firestorm in your skillbar at all costs. Or try a different line. A good Ele is a terrible thing to waste.

Francis Crawford · Jan 04, 2006, 02:34 AM // 02:34

I'm on my first character still, an elementalist/mesmer who's just gotten to the desert (but is Level 20 and has Drok's armor).

I don't see what the complaints are all about. I just walked him to Augury Rock without knowing the way. Not a big problem, except for the getting lost part. He can kill two Hydras easily solo and three at a time if I'm careful (although there's a problem if I get sloppy and more show up before he's recharged), in a build without elite skills. I've skill capped with him in Snake Dance taking just 3 henchies; on a good run I can farm with him in Snake Dance taking just Lina and Alesia, even though the griffons have Spellbreaker, which has to be one of the most nuke-unfriendly skills in the game.

Except for solo hydra farming (not a pursuit one wants to stick very long with anyway) I'm not exploiting the fact that the AIs are still stupid about Backfire, and anyhow I can kill them 2+ at a time without it in a simple Inspired Nuker (TM) build.

I don't see what the complaints are about. The class seems plenty powerful enough for me. And I'm far from a skilled player yet (don't have my timing down, for instance, to keep Kinetic Armor up very long). And there are many perhaps-useful spells I don't have yet -- Aftershock, Flameburst, Glyph of Energy, Elemental Attunement, Mantra of Recall, etc.

I just fail to see the problem.

And by the way -- I suspect that every class has victims that it's particularly easy for them to farm against. Right now I'm exploiting the fact that gargoyles are one of those victim groups for me.

(At one point I went up over a full level just farming at Gates of Kryta. I'd discovered which submaximum caster weapons sold well in Ascalon, so I was actually making a bunch of gold in the process.)

spottydog · Jan 04, 2006, 02:41 AM // 02:41

MMMmm,
well I (E\Mo) use\used mainly fire all through the game. Completed nearly all with hench. The only one I cant finish with hench in SF is the priest one, where someone needs to stay with him on the steps. Obviously tried all the spells, but found I never bothered with meteor\meteor shower\firestorm. just took too long to cast. Finding a consistantly good build for pvp takes some doing. BUT, oh boy is my earth ele good at farming!!!

Mavrik · Jan 04, 2006, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by antialias02

Mavrik, my advice to you is this: find a good direct fire damage build and see how you like it. Try to refrain from putting firestorm in your skillbar at all costs. Or try a different line. A good Ele is a terrible thing to waste.

Maybe you can give me some good mesmer tips sometime. I still want to try one out.

I did have some good success charming Charr before the nerf without using firestorm. Basicly I'd cast Rodgart's Invocation(sp) and then when they rushed me, I'd cast Inferno (or what ever its called that sends a ring of fire around you) usually killed those lv8 charr with that. Or I'd cast RI and wait for those to rush in at me, then cast Phoenix on the ones who stayed to cast at me, killing them and the axe fend ones attacking close range. But I loved standing in a fire storm or meteor shower dealing mass damage to a group of enemies... Most of the other fire skills are individual damage ones... I haven't had time as mentioned to tinker around and see just what works and what doesn't. Well I know what doesn't lol...

I'll wait probably for chapter 2, get those new character slots and then make a mesmer...

Fluffyx · Jan 04, 2006, 04:20 AM // 04:20

An ele was my second character for guild wars, I've been playing since the game officially came out. I put a lot of money and time into my ele but I just found it boring first of all. Yes the damage was great and all but Eles since mobs now run from AoE spells minion masters are more effective alone. The always have been people just went with the Eles for farming because it was the trend. My MM was always able to dish out more damage lvl 18/19 minions do last awhile so you arent always throwing out veretas like most people think, at least untill they build up degen. If you want to cause even more damage with an AoE spell use mark of pain... enemies cant run to well from ranged attacks now can they :P.

But after the AoE nerf I used this build and it worked decently:
flare
meteor
echo
arcane echo
inspired enchantment (random groups never bring strips)
meteor storm
maelstrom (didnt work as well as it did but it still bothered casters a little)
and incin. bonds

This build was pretty balanced and worked well for me

Inari · Jan 04, 2006, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Well, while I do think the AoE nerf was good for the game, it really stoped depending on eles alone. I know its hard for some, but if someone sees meteors comming down hitting nothing but air, why not draw your enemies to it? I've had many cases where I drew dwarfs to my meteor shower, knocking them down, letting all the rest finish their job faster.

Eles just need to use their head now, thats what the nerf was all about. Its good, its gooood.

Lady Frost Bite · Jan 04, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

I played an ele/r for the longest time (until the nerf) and then i discovered the joys of playing a warrior. Warrior is my primary toon now for pve and pvp but the ele is still very usefull in almost any area except regular pve. My guild does FoW and underworld farming most of the time as a trap group and we do take a water ele with us. the point of the water ele in a group is after we lay all our traps and pull a few bad guys to us the water ele slows them down and makes sure that the bad guys get the full extent of our traps before it has a chance to run away. Now we also run a 2 to 3 man ele team in GvG battles, when we do this we have one or 2 air spikers and either a wards,water, or fire ele depending on what we want to do. i don't care who you are if you get hit with 3 OF spikes that are timed right your going to die. a bonuse to running this many ele's in a GvG are really simple. if we have a warder and our monks are getting there asses kicked well then they have some place to go. if we are running an air spiker and we have a monk running from us then that monk can be hit with gale(so we can get to them)and then lightning orb or surge so by the time we do manage to get to them they are at half health so we don't have much to do. also our flag runner sometimes uses a water ele to run the flag since you can hit a target without having to get too close. and there is nothing better than seeing the other teams flag runner going so slow he would be passed by a snail if there was one. and another thing if you happen to have a water ele in your group as well as a fire ele(which we sometimes do) then all you have to do is hit your target with things like ice spikes or ice prision to slow them down and then hello metor shower. and this combo also works on npcs. they can't run from an AoE if they can't really move.

Squalus the Ipno · Jan 04, 2006, 02:31 PM // 14:31

The secret of a good PG is the player

Bad player......bad PG

Xenrath · Jan 04, 2006, 02:38 PM // 14:38

It's kind of funny (in a tragic way) a lot of times, before that patch, the only way my mesmer could get into a group for PvE was by advertising as a mesmentalist (fast casting fire nuker) lol The irony

CKaz · Jan 04, 2006, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cartoonhero

Ckaz, if you read the last line of that,
he was being sarcastic. he knows that that is bs. read carefully before you respond.

If read in its entirety I'd argue it's not obviously sarcastic.
Further he suggests Necro>>Ele. /disagree a well played one.
Just like a well played Necro was underrated, just like a Ranger, just like a Mesmer

edit - ok with 3 calling it eating crow per below, self-ownage ftw! :b

CKaz · Jan 04, 2006, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Sarcasm >> CKaz

Self-ownage FTW

It seemed like the regular knee-jerk reaction, but if that's the ruling I'll take it.

I didn't get sarcasm from the text itself, particularly when you went on to suggest Necro>>Ele. I've played the crap out of both characters many many ways and it really depends more on the challenge and what I and/or the group is trying to do. Certainly Necro can own, and the fact SS no AoE nerf and even works a little better now very good for Necro, and MM has a lot of teeth. But there are times I wish I had my nuker for extra umph, just like at times I wish I could make use of a corpse or drop some SS love on 'em.

Ah well gotta self-own sometime.
On a totally unrelated note I got my 1st IDS soloing with my warrior yesterday so I'll revel in that for solace

CKaz · Jan 04, 2006, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Reading comprehension is important before you respond. He was saying that people were dumb to think that firestorm is a good skill. It has always sucked, but many people never realized it. Chaos storm is far more useful for a comparable skill, but post change it is difficult to employ effectivly in pve. Even so, it wasnt that useful overal.

Cool 3 posts on that thanks, I got the self-ownage call already

What I get for zipping thru stuff @work sometimes. Doesn't mean I bought into necro>>ele. I like to think I'm a pretty good speller though so I'll help you out - 'overall' has two 'l's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

There is a huge difference between damage up front and damage per second. Against high hp and AL monsters, damage per second is far more important. In good groups, its not that uncommon to have the target die before the ele spell even finishes. This is probably why the aoe delivery was changed to still finish. This should be one of the biggest indications that some skill sets are out of place or have no real use when compared to other possibilities.

No way really?!?! Actually though have you done higher level stuff at all? Level 28s usually don't just keel over, and ya see you cast your big bombs EARLY while they clump up, not LATE like celebrating henchmen. You actually kind of tie yourself up in a knot above. You say DPS is king but then targets are dropping like flies. There are very few skills that don't have a place, and trying to assume you have it all down might be reaching, particularly considering your post.

That's why 'theory-GW' only goes so far. In a group I'm constantly delivering nasty nasty AoE damage with some single target DD mixed in for knockout priorities or when they're not clumped more of that. My build works, and the core of it didn't notice a bump with the patch (again but for one day when they nerfed every kind of any AoE and everything ran like nuts).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Considering that he would be someone supporting this change in order to have the possibility for change in the skill sets to be more viable in pvp, i think you are the one who is clueless here.

That was my comment about his liking Firestorm which I already am admiting self-OWNership. Otherwise I'm not sure how to read this - I'm a bad man because you shouldn't screw PvE over for PvP? - but I'll bite. Must be that reading comprehension

If it's just for PvP, hey GREAT IDEA, have some things work differently there rather than sack PvE. Their changes arguably didn't even make sense (so instead of the AI finishing off kills they run from low damage AOE pulsing attacks for example). For one day it bit, it was over the next. I have no problem with the current patch. As it initially came down though it made a lot of problems for ANY AoE, yes every class had some effect - a surprising # of Necro skills for example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

2 skills do not make a skill line good, nor does it reflect upon how many of the skills are very viable at low skill level and no not get much of a power increase at high skill levels. This is what he is talking about, in addition to considering them in more than just the pve setting. Many of them share some of the weaknessess that the elementalist lines have in terms of cost verus cast times and effect. I still wonder why blood has hexes, while curses do not have many one shot spells. It makes the titles of the skill lines misleading. Things like mark of subversion seem like they would belong better in the curse line, but whatever.

Also, depending on party composition, feast of corruption ranks a bit better than spiteful spirit in most situations. Especially when many of the hexes employed to amplify the damage serve a purpose outside of just amplifying the damage in most instances. Its part of the reason why people were able to run sucessful necromancer spike builds in tombs. Potentially over 170 armor ignoring damage that also heals is nothing to scoff at especially when its also AOE, doesnt cause exhaustion, is available every 20s and uses only 10e when cast. Many curses will last long enough for 1 recycle use of it as well.

I'd argue about Feast>>SS most situations but that gets off topic, as well as what you can do at lower levels and the curse line. I was just saying it seems people ignored MoP just like they ignored SS (until UW made it a buzzword). AoE nerf hurts MoP but not SS. MoP wasn't elite. Combined it was a lot of fun in certain situations, thats all. Curses has some neat things but I would agree it could use a tweak, just like Mesmer's illusion line.

But all this gets away from me firing back at the original thread, 'Hey I still use and enjoy my elementalist' rather than some of the other posts 'Why bother now' and 'I deleted mine'. Whatever. I'm a rube for going after Ensign - it's pretty obvious I was looking for someone who made a bad argument and was ready to open-up, and I picked a sarcastic one. Oops.

I appreciate you all appreciate necros. Players who have played do. Just like other classes can own. Meanwhile though we have those saying 'why Ele' and how a Necro>>Ele. I already appreciate Necros so I don't need to defend them. However as this thread suggests to throw the ele out of the group I whole-heartedly disagree. NEEDED? No. Short of a monk (and rarely are they needed as much or as many as groups suggest) and an aggro magnet (which doesn't have to be a warrior) there's not a lot NEEDED. Even there right off the bat you have solo builds for many classes - not just monk and including ele. Also successful all Ranger groups, etc.

I'm not a fan of blanket statements in this game - even your 'some skill sets have no place'. I'd love to see your list of skills that have no place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Oh good waste more time and energy on a skill like deep freeze, that the effect you are striving for can be accomplished easier in a number of different ways. Also, the malestorm->mindfreeze is typically only really useful in short term spike setups. It has very poor rapid re-use and stay power and only good against a single caster at a time. You are better off with something like blackout or mark of subversion for that kind of effect since typically its the monks you are trying to disrupt more than offensive casters anyway and most offensive casters are easy to disable with a ranger or mesmer.

That was mentioned if you wanted to pull off what Maelstorm used to do by itself (utter spellcaster group ownage pve), yes you'd have to lead with some kind of opponent slow. It was so good in some cases as a fire nuker it came along. But Meteor Storm, particularly doubled up, does the job well enough.

Deep Freeze slowing a whole pack isn't a bad thing though and has other uses. Waste time? Usually it's a lead off spell. Energy? Maybe you're using one of the energy Glyphs. Keep in mind you're probably using an attunement. Maybe another did Grasping Earth, whatever.

Easily replaced? Well as it was, Maelstorm wasn't easily replaced - 10seconds of click and forget interrupts on a caster pack, with damage if you put a bit into water. If you mix with some kind of slow it could still provide some kind of that love, just mobs won't take the shower like they used to.

Anyways that was more of an extra. Mesmers and Rangers certainly deny or disable better, point here was this used to disable (and either allow or do the killing) entire casting groups. I owned hydras with this spell in Perdition Rock. So where you might argue 'why would you bother' if you could replicate the effect, might you not check it out? Maybe two need to pull it off for energy and timing considerations, but another option.

I just don't like blanket statements for this game because they're usually wrong. Which got me on this thread, and also got me owned

But I'm eating my crow - yumm! However my post remains that eles are hardly useless to the point of deletion. The patch hardly did a thing.

And Necros don't magically spring >> Ele. They always rocked, just some didn't know it. But all those 'class' >> 'class' are a bit of a joke, because with some real thought there's not many class/class combinations that can't be made to do practically whatever you want. I've bothered to get all the Ele skills (with elites), my secondary was Mesmer and I have all of that, and I have most of the other 2ndaries (including elites) for it too. That allows for a lot of configuration. And still little makes me say 'well these were obviously filler skills'.

If more overlook the elementalist so be it. But I wonder about those who like to write them off as shallow yet jump on the latest trend (ie SS). I have 3 chars through the game with all classes covered yet I always have more to try. Across all of them. As this thread targets Ele, I have all 4 caps w/their sup runes, all 4 collector staves/rods/artifacts, a 'iele' outfit for e/mo, enjoy e/me and e/r (incl a nice solo build), e/n had a particularly fun build for pvp, and admitably havent done a lot e/w but played with some 'super tank' there too.

It's all what you enjoy. With 4 slots you're limited - if I had 8 I'd have all classes primary, a slot for pvp, and a slot for a character to go through the game with another I play with. Maybe we'll get that with the expansion, but then we get 2 more classes to play with (hope for 10 slots! :b)

It's just odd to me, because people yell 'obvious' or 'boredom' with ele, yet a lot of these same people only take stabs at other classes when someone comes out with a build for them. Shrug. But that seems part of the game. Certain builds get popular and that's what PuGs want.

I haven't been that effected though as I henched through the game outside a couple and did my devistation w/o group approval. That included being a fire nuker in the desert with maelstorm loaded too - worked awesome. Or a GoR (Glyph of Renewal) nuker in a PUG but still changing to /me so I wouldn't have to explain how I'm still an 'echo nuker' (and even a better one in my particular build).

Ok this got long - all done! Cheers
CKaz

wilebill · Jan 04, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

It's all great advice, but picking up the henchies and testing my ele outside Elona Reach versus the drakes, trying earth, air, fire, and water was not encouraging. My monk, warrior, and ranger all do a far better job.

Cartoonhero · Jan 05, 2006, 09:38 AM // 09:38

i really dont understand how so many of you find eles useless. i just cant comprehend it. yes, firestorm is really not a good spell anymore, we've concluded that. But, metoer shower with a glyph of renewal or echo is still very useful, when an enemy is getting knocked down every three seconds, its hard to move out to quickly, and if you are casting rodgorts and incendiary bonds while the meteor is happening, you have a large, mostly dead mob before they can even move. my ele is still my most played character, and i dont think that will ever change. the AoE nerf really didnt change my play style that much, and those of you that say eles are pointless just because you cant use the EXACT skill bar you used before the nerf, are really just not trying. sorry. you just arent...now i'll probably get flamed. oh well. i just felt the need to defend all of us that know how to play an ele, and still love doing so. oh and did i mention, fire isnt the only element that eles can use? try earth, for massive damage, knockdown, and support wards, or how about water, to slow your enemy to a crawl(take a page from those annoying ice imps' book), im no air expert, but many have great success with it as well. its called CREATIVITY. and thats what needs to happen. im tired of cookie-cutter builds running pve and pvp amok. its sad, i actually dont run into many eles in pvp anymore. people give up so easily. i really dont get it

pipes · Jan 05, 2006, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Personally, I really like my elementalist and I will throw my $.02 in here. A lot of people are talking about how elementalists have been nerfed by the AoE thing. This is true of certain spells, specifically lava font and firestorm (for the fire guys), however when I use fire magic I have yet to see a group of mobs run out of a meteor shower due to that spell. If they break aggro, it is almost always because I cast an AoE spell on them too soon after the meteor shower. I usually fire a few blasts from my wand after the shower and then a rodgorts invocation and I never have problems with mobs running out of aggro. I do SF runs with a few guys quite frequently as well as UW and FoW and I have yet to have problems with mobs breaking aggro when I nuke.
For soloing I use an earth/air build and it is quite effective. I clear the prophet's path/skyward reach areas regularly. So I really can't say that the ele is nerfed. I think they are balanced well and one simply has to combine spells well. For example, when I solo I use whirlwind and aftershock quite effectively. The whirlwind knocks the enemies that I aggro down and the aftershock will do almost double regular damage when used on knocked-down opponents.