Curse

cup-o-noodles · Aug 11, 2005, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

As for exploration - have you guys actually TRIED? There's huge areas to explore. For example you never get to Dragons Gullet or the Icetooth Cave area without exploring. Yeah, I'd like for there to be more too, but saying that there's zero explorable areas is just silly.

But you have to admit the ability to do it alone(unless your a specific build), and without henchmen is very low.(I can't even do it period)

Kampfkeks · Aug 11, 2005, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by cup-o-noodles

and without henchmen is very low.

Why do people have to do things all alone? This is something i do not understand. How does having henchmen with you, take away from your exploration experience? You see the same areas. You encounter the same enemies with the same skillsetup. You find the same chests...
All is same, except for some backup in this teambased game. Sorry i really fail to get you there.

Therlun · Aug 11, 2005, 12:04 PM // 12:04

doesnt the white mantle use ward against elements only?

the problem i see with the PVE is indeed the lack of "explorable stuff".
everything after pre-searing ascalon is simply a maze, with mobs of monsters in it.
and the monsters are not there to create atmosphere, but ONLY to make the life of the player harder.

GW has a great skill-system... but in PVE this system fails, as there are little to no mobs you "like" to fight (at least for me it is that way).
after the first two times you fought a subclass you are bored, and every future fight with them is just work.

ohhh... another dozen lv24 hydras, spamming meteor shower and fireball.
whoopie! what fun it will be to fight them...
i would prefer much smaller, more balanced mobs on open maps.

GW fails to bring the PVP system into the PVE enviroment.
what use has an interrupt or shutdown, if there are 6 monster of the same class casting/fighting?

Mithie · Aug 11, 2005, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerized

Ooh ooh! Ok this goes out to all the casters out there!!! Ok! Isn't it fun, to go out into the Shiverpeaks above Copperhammer (on the way to citadel) and get hit with 7 Mind Freeze in a matter of 3 seconds? Oh! And afterwards, a few Ice Spikes, and the occasional 2 Maelstroms? Boy oh boy, that sure makes my frown turn upsidedown!

You're out of your mind if you try to clear the copperhammer - citadel path with a full caster party, or any non-balanced party for that matter. With a pre-planned party build with your guild, it's a breeze. But then, so is everything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therlun

ohhh... another dozen lv24 hydras, spamming meteor shower and fireball.
whoopie! what fun it will be to fight them...

Three words: Ward Against Harm.

Come on people, tailor your strategy to the enemy. It's common sense.

cup-o-noodles · Aug 11, 2005, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kampfkeks

Why do people have to do things all alone? This is something i do not understand. How does having henchmen with you, take away from your exploration experience? You see the same areas. You encounter the same enemies with the same skillsetup. You find the same chests...
All is same, except for some backup in this teambased game. Sorry i really fail to get you there.

It's just more fun to be able and go out on your own. Now I understand that this is a team based game, and I love grouping up with people to do quest and missions and such. But if all I want to do is explore, then I wan't to be able to just step out the gate, and be able to do it on my own.

Christ67 · Aug 11, 2005, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Agreed GW was marketed (in my opinion, keep that in mind) as a PVE game with a PVP option. I came to this assumption when the advertising proclaimed the devs ties to Blizzard's Diablo games. Having played Diablo, Diablo2, and the expansions I was entrigued by the prospect of a better developed game which was along those lines that also implemented a PVP option. Since the release the game has devolved into a PVP game that has an extremely limited PVE add-on. Each major patch to the game has further limited and hindered the PVE side to being only necessary to complete for the PVP people to have better, faster builds. Seems "no grind" means no gameplay outside PVP. These developments lead to being stuck with the "accepted" builds. No one LFG's a smiting monk, only the "healers". If you don't heal you don't get invited and needless to say some areas are not possible without henchies or parties of people. Some are impossible to truly solo simply cause the game is designed that way.(North of the Wall)
Since the release I have asked many times on these boards which game we are playing PVE or PVP. Often I get negative feedback which only drags the issue away from the question. After repeated questioning I finally got an answer in a round-about way. Look at the developments since release. PVPer's have consistantly had the game "patched" to suit them short of the fabled "UAS". The PVEer's have consistantly seen the "patches" eliminate the farming, exploring, etc.... Finally I got this answer from Alex Weekes of NC Soft 5/26/2005:

I'm not a designer (just the geek who gets to talk to all of you), but I think i can speak on their behalf. Put simply:

Guild Wars is both.

The game has a strong mission-based and quest-based storyline, with plenty of map zones to explore and beat stuff up in. In many Explorable Areas you can play solo, but the game is not really designed for true solo gameplay. The game is designed to be a multiplayer experience, however you can always choose to ignore the other human players and use NPC Henchmen instead; effectively allowing you to play with a solo experience.

Guild Wars also has a strong PvP component that many players enjoy.

You are not required to play PvP (except when you go through the Academy and may be placed in a brief PvP encounter) if you are not interested in it. Many players have noted above that they find the PvE in Guild Wars to be very enjoyable. It's worth noting that those who want to get the most out of PvP in Guild Wars need to complete the PvE side of the game, so in that regard in can be said that PvE comes first and PvP later as an option.

With regards your comments about the Hall of Heroes "spam" I need to point out that this is present to make sure that PvE players know when they can enter some special PvE maps available later in the game. These maps are unlocked by teams who are playing PvP in the HoH.

However, going back to the short answer: We feel that Guild Wars should be enjoyable for both PvE and PvP players alike. If you don't want to PvP, then simply ignore that part of the game.

My favorite part;" the game is not really designed for true solo gameplay"
Wish I knew that prior to paying $65.00. Never read that on the box or in the advertising/marketing. So yes you are correct the game isn't designed for individuality in missions, builds, or gameplay. You are basically forced into a role which is "valuable" in the community sense. Healer etc...
Sorry for the long post, but this is a sensitive subject for me.

Mithie · Aug 11, 2005, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by cup-o-noodles

It's just more fun to be able and go out on your own. Now I understand that this is a team based game, and I love grouping up with people to do quest and missions and such. But if all I want to do is explore, then I wan't to be able to just step out the gate, and be able to do it on my own.

Yeah, see, you can't do that. This is a team game, and whether you like it or not, there's not a single build that can go out there and solo everything. The 105 monk included.

Quote:

Wish I knew that prior to paying $65.00. Never read that on the box or in the advertising/marketing. So yes you are correct the game isn't designed for individuality in missions, builds, or gameplay. You are basically forced into a role which is "valuable" in the community sense. Healer etc...
Sorry for the long post, but this is a sensitive subject for me.

I was quite sure there was a strong teamplay proponent advertised in the game... or at least you should have done a little research before dumping 65 bucks on anything.

dargon · Aug 11, 2005, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Funny, the box may not have mentioned "My favorite part;" the game is not really designed for true solo gameplay", nor did it mention anything about being designed for people to play alone. If you go around making assumptions about something that wasn't stated you take your chances.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 11, 2005, 12:44 PM // 12:44

GW *is* soloable, though. I've soloed it, including explored the entire map.
It's just a hellovalot more difficult with henches than with other human players.

LifeInfusion · Aug 11, 2005, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

It's because PvE is incredibly easy and stupid. So monk+war+ele with even the worst kind of builds are eventually going to make it through.

If they actually made mobs work somewhat together-expanding on Avacara mobs-and actually stop giving them shit skills PvE would actually be hard. Make a mob with an Ele that uses Ward against Melee or Air Gank and watch more than half the PvE players quit.

Actually, there ARE mobs with air ganks, and ward against melee. For example, sand drakes and lightning drakes.

Saerden · Aug 11, 2005, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Actually, there ARE mobs with air ganks, and ward against melee. For example, sand drakes and lightning drakes.

We are not talking about arena n00b mobs.

We are talking about a cluster of 8 mobs that have bonds and cast healing seed on whoever gets attacked.

We talk about mobs of 8 who focus your monk with 8 orbs, and they even use surge to warn you!

We talk about 8 ranger mobs who use oath shot and spam spirits like mad. Winter / conflag included of course. Did i mention NR?

We talk about the final boss who has 55 hp, mending, prot bond, and spell breaker.

I came from games where the point of the game was to PWN the mobs with the biggest dmg numbers you could fit on the screen. And i woul love to see "real"/different pve. Or at least add enough shiny items to make this into diablo with good landscape graphics and oh... and that small pvp mode that is a tutorial for PUGing (STFU n00b REZZ)

I do agree that exploring is a pain though. Its not something you do in a team. Find 8 people who are actually interested in going around seeing the scenery in this game and have the next 4h to do it, and you deserve at least 1m exp for the feat.
I actually doubt that there are 8 people online at the same time who dont care about either gold/h or unlock / h

Therlun · Aug 11, 2005, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

Three words: Ward Against Harm.

Come on people, tailor your strategy to the enemy. It's common sense.

Hehe, my Main Char is an Earth/Water Mage... you dont need to tell me. :P

The point is, fighting them is BORING, as the only thing they do is spamming meteor Shower and Fireball.
Either you get trounced by them, or with the right build you easily defeat them.
Either way, it is no fun to fight them.

Elythor · Aug 11, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therlun

Hehe, my Main Char is an Earth/Water Mage... you dont need to tell me. :P

The point is, fighting them is BORING, as the only thing they do is spamming meteor Shower and Fireball.
Either you get trounced by them, or with the right build you easily defeat them.
Either way, it is no fun to fight them.

But isn't the metagame part of the fun? Don't you enjoy exercising your mind to come out with the right skill-set to defeat a type of enemy?

People need to get off their simple game mind-set of mashing buttons to kill mobs. Guild Wars requires thinking (especially the PvP part...until spirit spam came out), and that is why I enjoy the game.

Shadow_Avenger · Aug 11, 2005, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Well having read this post, I have come to the conclusion, that GW is fun, but defininately not a long term game for me, more of a casual affair, like many of my other games, HL2, FARCRY etc etc.
I will check the summer update, but will be seeking a different game that can offer the hours of play and enjoyment that games like Diablo, Diablo 2 and NWN have offered me.
Gonna try, DS2, then Gothic 3 and morrowind, that sould keep me going till well into next year and the advent of NWN2.
On a final note, I really do need to remove this site from my favourates, as the forums is more addictive than the game.

Phades · Aug 11, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

If you can tolerate the pace of morrowind, then it should last you at least a few months of hardcore gaming. I am not really sure about the rest of them.

As far as GW is concerned, i knew walking into it that if i were to play it mostly solo, that it would turn into something i might play a couple hours one day out of the week instead of something i would have become more habit forming. It felt like D2 from the preveiw events and D2 was only really enjoyable with a regular group of guys playing it together on a lan doing random and stupid things. Unfortunatly, there wasnt enough in GW to keep the rest of the guys glued to the screen so im left to default with my original theory for how id end up playing the game.

Shusky · Aug 11, 2005, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Yes, Guild Wars is weak for exploring. Too many mazes, too little open space. I liked pre-searing as well, ,where you would stumble into 5 drunk hunters that give you beer if you kill a bear in 3 minutes. This was fun.

After the searing, you occasionally stumble on a village or a collector/material crafter. Maybe a statue here and there. Other than that, here's the full and exhaustive list of all fun things you can find while wandering around:

1.Rotscale.

GhostPoet · Aug 11, 2005, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by TideSwayer

Currently I think PvE is set up ALL wrong. PvE is set up mainly as a means to unlock stuff rather than an explorable world where people can build unique characters and actually have fun. What we have now is some lame-ass shield mission-to-shield mission action quest rather than an explorable RPG. I would like ANet to seriously think about their lame attempt at a PvE world and give serious concessions to those of us who want to make unique character builds and walk around the world, instead of being practically forced to form a party of tanks, nukers, and healers everywhere we go. You can't. Monsters deal too much damage, in the later zones there are way too many of them in mobs with terrible aggro implementation (attack one and 35 others come to their aid from all over the damn zone), and god forbid you want to actually set up a build using enchantments or stuff like that, as they will just get stripped 5 seconds later anyways by some random mob. You are forced to bring a tank to distract the monsters' attention, a nuker to hit large groups from far away, and a healer to constantly keep healing allies from all the damage they take. This game doesn't allow anything else.

This game (talking about PvE here) IMO is much better in ANet's theory than the implementation that they have set up for it. I like having around 80 skills per class. I like having multi-class characters and the ability to power up various attributes of my choice. I don't like that I really can't set up any non-cookie-cutter build and get more than two feet with it in a PvE zone.

For example, many skills given to us are enchantments. Basic characters aren't powerful enough, energy-wise, health-wise, or power-wise to deal with large mobs, so we as players like to cast enchantments to boost our builds. Here's the freaking problem with PvE enchantment builds: 5 seconds later some random monster in almost EVERY zone now just rips your build apart by taking those enchantments away. Nevermind the enchantment recast either, as you'll be busy using those precious energy points to heal up the damage that has been done to you or dealing damage in a desperate attempt to be the last one standing (however many deaths it may take to wipe out a mob). Why not let us have the freedom to actually get things done with non-standard builds? Enchantments are 10-15 energy cost on average to cast, and the monsters just wipe them away seconds later. Thanks a lot, for giving us miniscule amounts of energy overall and for having every mob in PvE nowadays have enchantment-stripping ability. Really GREAT way to allow for uniqueness in character types, right?

I don't think the problem with GW PvE is the fact that there are farming spots, or certain builds out there that allow one to farm for items. I think the underlying issue which I wish more people would have a problem with (so ANet would actually make these PvE concessions for us) is that there isn't ENOUGH farming possibilities. The whole idea of a PvE world is to be able to have a role and be able to play it. The only roles allowed to us are tanks, nukers, and healers. I don't care that there are bots out there. I don't care that people spend the real-life money they earn on gold they want to use to buy some useless item that can be found in a similar fashion in 20 minutes. I do care that the only way to have fun in this game is to use basic, age-old character types instead of the unique possibilities that originally sucked me (and probably alot of other players too) into the GW mix.

GW PvE, as it is now, is nothing more than a trojan horse for PvP. Some people like me have no interest in PvP'ing and just want to mess around with unique skillbars and be able to walk around the damn world using a - get this ANet, it's coming and you know it - VARIETY of play styles. GW is a young game and it still has time to grow. I'd like to see PvE evolve into it's own entity rather than mainly serving as an unlocking system for PvP.

Thoughts?

What I got from your post is "I don't like being forced to group!"

Too bad.

cup-o-noodles · Aug 11, 2005, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

GW *is* soloable, though. I've soloed it, including explored the entire map.
It's just a hellovalot more difficult with henches than with other human players.

WITHOUT henchies. Pretty much the whole game is soloable with just henchies, but not without them.(unless you wanna be some stupid w/mo) Therlun is right too, the monsters are very boring to fight. Making exploring tedious and less appealing in this game. It just fight the same thing over and over again, untill you get to a new area. It's not even a mixed up group of em, it's just 8 of the same thing.

Phades · Aug 11, 2005, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Actually, there ARE mobs with air ganks, and ward against melee. For example, sand drakes and lightning drakes.

When you encounter something like that, it comes in limited numbers at a time. In explorable areas, you get 1 lightning drake at a time, in 1 mission you will face packs of up to 3, with a possible 3 packs in the same area. Unfortunatly they also only use 1 spell from the line, but somehow keep a permanent armor of mist up always....

Your lightning drake example is fairly weak, while mursaat elementalists would have been a more convincing argument, but they are still limited in what they actually cast and limited in numbers when you do face them. Now if they came in packs, weilding the full spectrum of air possibilities, powered by ether renewal (or other means), and backed by some form of a healing ball, then you might have an arguement. You could even have them do fun things like have mantra of resolve on them full time and have them copy a spell like gale or lightning orb for 100 percent uptime of spells.

Dac Vin · Aug 11, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Your lightning drake example is fairly weak, while mursaat elementalists would have been a more convincing argument, but they are still limited in what they actually cast and limited in numbers when you do face them. Now if they came in packs, weilding the full spectrum of air possibilities, powered by ether renewal (or other means), and backed by some form of a healing ball, then you might have an arguement. You could even have them do fun things like have mantra of resolve on them full time and have them copy a spell like gale or lightning orb for 100 percent uptime of spells.

This, my friend, is exactly the problem in PvE: Monsters will NEVER team up with another one, they will always fight as ONE. It would be nice to see, let's say, a mob consisting of a mesmer, a necro and an elementalist. The mesmer would cast fragility, phantom pain, then shatter delusion (Typical mesmer combo). But THEN the necro would cast virulence. And THEN the ele would cast crystal wave. but nooo, they won't teamwork, it's too good for AI!