Curse

Deathqueen · Jan 16, 2006, 11:05 AM // 11:05

[Instead of farming ectos and shards, you would farm armors.. what's the differense? The armor are not better.. Then why would you need it?]

And that is the $64 statement, there's no incentive to farm for anything once you've finished the story. THere's NOTHING BETTER than 1500gp armor from Droknars, this is the drive of mmorpgs this is what keeps people coming back for more, this is why WOW is so popular.

Every expansion of EQ always provided better armor and better weapons over the previous version and in many of them expecially the SECOND expansion allowed for continuance of levels from 50 to 60. This game stops you at 20 and is going to keep you at 20 and just give you more SKILLS? lol big flippin deal, there's already too many skills and not enough skill slots to use them. Even in EQ during play in the middle of battle even; you could CHANGE OUT Spells, can you do that in GW's? Nope you can't.

There's also no "player crafters" in this game of any sense. You gather some resources and you trade them in for another item, that's not crafting. That's not fun. Trading in 5 wood and 20gp for a parchment isn't near the fun of crafting a spell in the likes of EQ2, or crafting 100 sow potions a day (Spirit of Wolf makes you run faster in the game) and selling them all in that one day is elating....there's no PIZAZZ to this game as far as props and no spiffs whatsoever. It's merely just a hack n slash for what? No one NEEDS 15k armor or Fissure armor. Personally a goal must be something I NEED to enhance myself, not just to make my cartoon LOOK different or pretty. I want better stats, skills set in armor so that it ADDS another skill to your skill bar if you have armor with a skill slot opening on it. You know like in Diablo 2 where you could put in runes and gems and the horadric cube, that cube alone gave hours and hours of fun just "crafting" things out of it. Turning crappy things into better things.

These are not just my own feelings, but, feelings of many others some after only a few WEEKS of play, others a couple of months. If you're not into PVP this game grows old and boring pretty fast, the zones are too linear and "don't respawn" (which they should imho), they could add some incentive to help others out and fillout groups quicker if they would give "everyone" Mission experience no matter how many times they do the same mission. If you go back through a mission like say Thirsty River (one of my favorites for awhile) you don't get any mission experience for completing it again. So, why should I go back through it again if I'm not going to reap the rewards others are getting?

It's pretty obvious that this game is pretty much PVP based. There is a PVE story to play like a Diablo 2 or a Morrowind or Neverwinter Nights true, but, just like those games, once the story is completed there's no real reason to continue playing them unless you just like to "farm for items". Farming is like "work". I'd much prefer another adventure, mission something inline like LDON of EQ where there's ALWAYS a NEW MISSION (random mission) to be given time after time after time. Sorry, but, Sorrows Furnace missions don't quite hit the spot. One scene with 5 samey missions. LDON had 5 SCENES with 8 different settings and 5 different mission types.

And yes I know these mmorpgs cost if not $15 a month then quite near it and basically you "Get What You PAY For", I'm seeing that now after playing GW's off and on for 7 months. I got $50 out of the game, but, then again that's 3 to 4 months of a pay to play like EQ game, not so sure the savings are really there when I find myself bored more than I'm having fun.

[/quote]I played NWN last summer for the first time. I bought the game and the 2 expentions. When i was done with the story, i didn't go to bioware forum to cry that there's nothing else to do[/quote]

Lol if that's all you did with NWN's then you missed over 3000 variants of it because there are excellent mods out there with NEW adventures and NEW stories and 100's and 100's and 100's of hours of RPG experiences vs once you finish the story of GW's there's only 100's and 100's of hours of "grinding" out skill points or farming.

Hyunsai · Jan 16, 2006, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Well, I think you need a true MMORPG like EQ and all...

Guildwars is NOT level based, is NOT item based, and that's why I love it...
I understand some people don't like this, as it's not like the old MMORPG standards...

And I hope it will stay the same, as I m having lot of fun with it. This game style is rather unique, I don't want to play another WOW like...

Sure there are some things to improve, but the "NOT level based, NOT item based" will stay, as Gaile said we will have new set of weapons armors in extensions but NEVER more powerful...

coolsti · Jan 16, 2006, 11:30 AM // 11:30

I'm not going to quote Deathqueen's long post, but ....

I can appreciate that GW's PVE is not designed to be easilly expanded upon. They cannot increase the character level without ruining the balance of game. They can maybe add some new areas and some more armor, but one can only go so far with that. A lot of neat things like the crafting and the potions that Deathqueen refers to (I never played EQ) are not a part of GW, and that is maybe too bad. In that respect, GW's PVE is too simple. The design is simple, not complex.

But I got my money's worth! I played this game almost constantly since July and it cost me only about the equivalent of $50 (yes, my wife and I purchased altogether 3 accounts, so the actual cost for us both was a bit more). I expect I will be totally bored with this game in about a month or so. And if I stop playing today or tomorrow, I certainly got my value. If, on the other hand, I needed to pay $15 or so per month like WOW it would be another story, I would expect a lot more complexity in the PVE.

Like most other games I have played, I will look back at GW in about a year's time and be amazed that the game even attracted my interest for so long. Life goes on, I play GW today with enthusiasm, but my interest WILL stop at some point, and that is just to be expected.

But for the moment this game is for me like Diablo was: relaxing way to spend a few hours. I grab some henchies maybe, and take a tour to SF. Or I take one of my characters and help with a higher level mission. I think its fun still.

generik · Jan 16, 2006, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Actually I do hope to see more "mystery" in PVE gameplay, like the horadric cube example brought up.

I remember how exciting it was just getting the cube, and discovering what you can get out of it. Perhaps Anet can have rare drops (like the Dark claw for instance, which drops out of the dragon in FoW, which apparently has no use too), put it into something like the cube, and have it churn out something random.

generik · Jan 16, 2006, 11:55 AM // 11:55

I'm not after a "MMORPG" or whatever. But let's face it. Replayability in GW sucks.

Even Warcraft III (which is an ancient game today) is still fun. GW has too much grind to it.

Orbberius · Jan 16, 2006, 12:03 PM // 12:03

It's like clockwork... Every once in a while there's always a bunch of whiners complaining the game is too hard to their shitty builds. They want to put a build with a bunch of random skills tossed together, call it unique, and expect to sollow Sorrow's Furnace with it. Put a little more thought into your builds. No, that doesn't mean go the standard monk/tank/nuker route, it means figuring out why your build isn't working and fixing it. Oh wait. I'm sorry. I forgot you just invented the l33test build ever and can't be arsed to change even one skill because it's all Anet's fault that your amazing pwnz0r build doesn't work.

Deathqueen · Jan 16, 2006, 12:10 PM // 12:10

[/quote]as Gaile said we will have new set of weapons armors in extensions but NEVER more powerful...[/quote]

That just means a new SKIN, graphics don't impress me as much as gameplay and a NEED for those new weapons that have better STATS. Guess I'm just old school mmorpg, and I did play most all of them, even EQ for near 5 years, still have my characters there to go back to which is good since what I enjoy is really there. Something NEW to quest/adventure for that is BETTER than what I have now.

It has been my observation that the psychology of people is to gain/want more. Like when you get a new game, almost your first reaction is "I wonder what the next one will be like" after you've played the new game for a little bit. For me once a game stops delivering "more" and begins to deliver the "same", that's when I become bored with them. As long as there's something NEW in them or something I haven't "obtained what I NEED to improve myself" then I'm all over it until I reach that goal, then I start looking for that next NEEDED item. And the reason I emphasis items is because these worlds have ends, they are NOT limitless miles and miles and miles of say our own real world to travel in. They are like BOXES and once you've covered the entire box, then it becomes redundant and boring.

One of the best things about Daggerfall (many may not even remember this one) was that it had miles and miles and miles of adventure, to this day I have still not explored the entire map it's bigger than our world I think sometimes. And you aren't instanced in it either, it's a living thriving world that you can walk for hours upon hours and never see the end of the map. And there will be encounters all along the way whichever direction you go. Dungeons to explore, vaults and crypts, small towns and large cities, npc guilds that will give you quests, individual citizens that will give you quests and JOBS even and this all outside of the main story. And 100's upon 100's of items. Now that was an rpg game and a half in it's day. Graphics are dated as heck, but, it's still one of the best designed computer rpgs I've ever seen.

If they had just made 15k armor and fissure armor something we NEED, I'd be all over that, even if it was like -1 for Grotto/Citidel armor or -2 dmg reduction fissure armor difference over droknars it would have given me drive to go after it. Hell it would give a lot more people drive to go after it. But, sadly it's just a SKIN a mere vanity item for LOOKS and looks only. If I want vanity I'll look at myself in the mirror all day.

Hyunsai · Jan 16, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Honestly, If 15K/fissure armor/weapons where something you NEEDED with better stats, I would stop this game. Definitely.

Bleidd · Jan 16, 2006, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teufel Eldritch

I would have to say that GW itself allows for a person to play a wide variety of builds. GW players(the majority) on the other hand show very little creativity/imagination & impose thier limitations on others. GW players(again most of them) only want cookie cutter builds they read off some forum.

Quoted for truth. I would also add that since the AI buff/AE nerf, the GLF's I have seen seem to have no desire to add a Fire Elementalist to their ranks. Was I alone in not using Fire Storm since like... South Shiverpeaks?... or something? Why am I receiving virtual blank faces when I state that my Elementalist is an AE Spiker. No, she doesn't hit as hard as an Air Elementalist, but when executed properly, can hit more targets. IB followed by RI does the trick nicely there.

So again... as previously stated. The playerbase wants cookie cutter and/or tried and tested (i.e. based on whether it was on the forum, not based on experience) builds. Its this same portion of the playerbase that insists on having two monks in every eight-man group. Go out on a limb or download a spine people. The sheer number of combinations possible in this game blows any other out of the water. The playerbase needs to stop suppressing it, especially when, also previously stated, it stems largely from ignorance or misconceptions about particular skills or profession combinations.

/rant off

Siliconwafer · Jan 16, 2006, 01:17 PM // 13:17

100% agreed. But another thing: The stupidest and most ineffective builds can STILL best mobs with a little bit of co-ordination. If it means not grabbing 2/3/4/6/8 and going, then so be it. If it means taking command of a group and asking for builds, calling, and tactics, so be it. I have no doubt the game can be completed with 7 Me/E's with fastcast flare. Or six necro warriors. Or five IW mesmers and an IWAY! warrior. Or eight monks with Balthazar's Aura.
It just takes a bit of co-ordination, and you can get anywhere with any set of skills (within reason, of course, no use taking eight cap sigs).

Hyunsai · Jan 16, 2006, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Exactly.

What kills this game is the same old MMORPG clichés of the players, and those who think a game is not good if they cannot beat it with a single character alone.

fezz47 · Jan 16, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

First off I'd like to say even though I think the PVE part of the game needs improving, there really is a lot to like in the game. I left for a few months because I was getting bored with it. The good part is that I came back as strong as I was when I left, AND it didn't cost me 60 bucks while I was gone. And lets face it folks, ya can't say that about WOW or EQ. I've gotten over 400 hrs into a $50 game and lets be honest here folks, that a very good deal nowadays no matter how you look at it.

Having said that though, I would like to see some improvements in the PVE part of the game. IMO, PVP sucks just because it's all who has the best build. I did it for a while, and it IS fun starting off and getting you're ass kicked, (if you can put up with all the "OMFG you suck, freakin newb! comments), then figuring out how to improve, then getting good at it. The problem for me is once you do get good at it, what's the big deal? Sure you have bragging rights I guess, but for me it's not worth listening to all the whiners and crybabys you have to deal with. If you're good at it people get pissed and if you're bad at it people get pissed.

As for PVE, I WOULD like to be able to go out without hench and just roam around by myself sometimes, but you can't do that. And really why would you? There's really nothing out there. I'd like to see some sort of incentive to do something like that. Maybe some area's where there were monsters that you could solo that would would drop some sort of temporary skill or health boost if you beat them then reward you with some uber item for your effort as well. Make it REALLY tough to do. Also, if it was a temporary skill, it wouldn't unbalance the game and would give you a reason to go out and explore.

I know the game was designed for playing with other people, but why not have the best of both worlds? That's what initially drew me to the game, and having hench in the game was a great idea, because if I want to go with "real" people I can, but if I don't feel like dealing with real peeps (like when you want to do a mission and have to wait over a 1/2 hr. for the "perfect" group,"), I can use hench. The problem to me is I'm FORCED to use them.

I used to love going out solo in AC 2, and just seeing what I could find. As much grinding as that game had, you at least had that option. GW doesn't really offer anything like that. Still all in all a very good game and it's going to be VERY interesting seeing how they're going to incorporate stealth into the game. I for one am looking foward to Factions.

A_Muppet · Jan 16, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

This has been probably pointed out before, but...

the title itself is 'Guildwars'. That suggests PvP. This game has always been built around the PvP.

Illusion · Jan 16, 2006, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

I read the OP's argument and can't help but wonder why I only see mentions of Tanks, Nukers, and Healers, and then dissertations on how the game limits creativity because enchantments keep getting stripped.

Where would Necromancers and Mesmers fall into your categories? Tanks? Nukers? Healers? What about Rangers?

You want to avoid getting your enchantments stripped/shattered/drained? Get nice with a Mesmer. Or a Necromancer. Or a Ranger. Try that before saying the game needs to be changed. Mesmers and Necros are the deadliest, most effective characters in the game when played competently, especially in the PvE contexts you're talking about.

If I'm reading your post correctly, I think the conclusion is pretty obvious:

You're getting beat by simple counters because you're using simple builds.

Necro Blood magic. Necro Curses magic. Mesmer Domination. Mesmer Illusion. Ranger Marksmanship. Ranger Expertise.

Those all have interrupts and/or shutdowns.

agree 100% ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Jetdoc · Jan 16, 2006, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by fezz47

As for PVE, I WOULD like to be able to go out without hench and just roam around by myself sometimes, but you can't do that.

I would like to see some sort of incentive to do something like that. Maybe some area's where there were monsters that you could solo that would would drop some sort of temporary skill or health boost if you beat them then reward you with some uber item for your effort as well. Make it REALLY tough to do.

You can't? To me, if you have gotten to the point where there is ANY part of PvE other than the missions, the UW or FoW that you cannot explore on your own, solo, then you haven't developed your skill in the game enough to do so. ANYONE who claims that they are bored with the game (not you, fezz, but in general) that has not tried to do this is missing out on one of the most challenging aspects of the game.

Regarding your second point, there are starting to be more and more of these items. Some examples:

1. Icy Dragon Swords. Resist the temptation to go out and buy one. Go out and solo it over and over again until you get one. One of the best challenges in the game.

2. Grenth's Footprint. Make a point of "collecting" each of the green items in GF by soloing it. It's a great challenge, and thoroughly rewarding if you USE those green items after you get them, and don't just go out and buy them for dirt cheap.

3. Underworld. Go and create a 55HP Monk and see how much you can clear. Adjust your tactics to avoid/deal with the enchantment strippers. If you aren't challenged by this, you must be on ritalin. Earn your ectos and other items, instead of buying them.

There are unsaid number of PvE challenges in the game, if you don't focus on "getting the missions done, power leveling my character to lvl 20 and getting FoW armor" philospophy that gets people burnt out. After playing over 600 hours and 6 months of the game, I am JUST NOW on my second character. That tells you something.

M3lk0r · Jan 16, 2006, 10:56 PM // 22:56

You know what I want?

I want a Shotgun (or a fantasy staff which makes a loud KA!BOOM! sound in this case)

And then I want to shoot people IN THE HEAD.

And then I want to see their head explode in a fountain of blood and flesh.

Can I do this in GW?

No.

So what am I going to do?

Play that damn game which DOES let me do the above and NOT go whining on a forum trying to complain about something its not.

Hey if the MMO'ers get to have their say why cant innocent little FPS psychopaths like me

Deathqueen · Jan 16, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

You're already complaining, you're complaining about the complainers so join the crowd you just submitted and passed your entrance exam to complainer. (smile)

Teufel Eldritch · Jan 16, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by A_Muppet

This has been probably pointed out before, but...

the title itself is 'Guildwars'. That suggests PvP. This game has always been built around the PvP.

Indeed it has been pointed out before but so has the fact that the lore of GW mentions wars between guilds in Tyria's history. The name Guild Wars does not point exclusively to PvP, but rather points to both PvP guild battles AND the lore(PvE) of GW.

Pandora's box · Jan 17, 2006, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyunsai

Well, I think you need a true MMORPG like EQ and all...

Guildwars is NOT level based, is NOT item based, and that's why I love it...
I understand some people don't like this, as it's not like the old MMORPG standards...

And I hope it will stay the same, as I m having lot of fun with it. This game style is rather unique, I don't want to play another WOW like...

Sure there are some things to improve, but the "NOT level based, NOT item based" will stay, as Gaile said we will have new set of weapons armors in extensions but NEVER more powerful...

Well I'm happy for you but please tell me what you like so much if you dont play pvp, dont need to find items, and dont need to level... What exactly makes this game so wonderfull for you?

theclam · Jan 17, 2006, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

Well I'm happy for you but please tell me what you like so much if you dont play pvp, dont need to find items, and dont need to level... What exactly makes this game so wonderfull for you?

Ooooh! Ooooh! I know! Maybe he finds PvE fun without needing levels and items as goals.