Curse

Nater · Jan 18, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

Okay, then...

First: Hod with 20% enchanting and a 12/20/20 collector's offhand does not provide lessened bleeding duration.

Second: A 10/20/20 collector's staff with a +5 insightful and a 20% of enchanting mod will give you... again... 2 less energy than using a HoD sword.

So I can come up with "anything close" very easily. The HoD user gains 2 energy and loses the ability to attack at a range.

I've seen that the HoD + 20/20 offhand = Yakslapper.

Comparison I was trying to make, and that and I've never seen a sword that reduces bleeding time.

Another note, everyone here that is defending the HoD, leave it in because its only +5 more energy this and that. All the pro HoD people are saying how player skill is going to determine outcomes, not items bla bla bla.

You're all implying with the Pro HoD arguments that the sword is not imbalanced. So why is it not craftable anymore?

The only argument that's made sense to me here is Carinae's 55 monk theory, as to why the HoD is gone.

Ok Guild Wars Develepers, you can jump in any minute now. I know you're watching.

Shyft the Pyro · Jan 18, 2006, 10:30 PM // 22:30

So it all boils down to "What's a legit mistake?"

Instead of thinking of the items in terms of Anet's intent, think of them in game terms. Can you put two of the same mod on a regular item? No. So, anything that breaks one of the established rules for item behavior should not exist as an item. Conversely, can a sword spawn with an inherent bonus? Yes, even if that bonus is only a damage increase.

So instead of considering the HoD sword and various other items "wrong," consider them "discontinued." Should Anet remove Halloween and Wintersday reward items from all users? I'm not talking about farmed/bought collector items or weapons; I'm talking about the customized headgear. Those items are too in the "discontinued" category. Wintersday hats especially had an incredibly narrow window of access that many people missed out on (and I am still pissed about), but you don't hear calls for their complete removal because people accept the reason for their... lets call it "suspension." Players should not be penalized for being in the right place at the right time; they should be rewarded. Players should, however, be penalized for exploiting game features. And they have. And they will be. And that is the proper course of action.

So think of all the "nerfed" or "removed" items as "special access only." Whether you were playing at the time but didn't get one, or whether you joined afterwards and had no opportunity to do so, you've missed out. But don't worry: unlike Diablo-esque games, Guild Wars is about skill and not items. Those who use items as their crutch can only hobble along as the true masters of the game spank them silly

For the record:
I was playing when HoD sword was available
I had access to creating an HoD sword
I did not create an HoD sword
I am fine without an HoD sword
I have no plans to acquire the HoD sword
I do own a 15% Fiery Flame Spitter, though

olydog · Jan 18, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Ok..first and fore most they didn't eliminate the HoD from the game....what they eliminated was the weapons crafter that allowed you to craft this weapon and various other weapons and shields. So..for all you people crying about a stupid sword that has +5 energy...take it to Anet, or save up and buy one yourself. It isn't that much of an advantage..I know cuz I own one, and I do enjoy farming to be able to buy one. I don't play PvP cuz you basicly are stuck on teams that need certain types of chars to win..IE iway warrios....w/eles with gale...certain ranger teams..etc.. I just want to play for fun..not relying on others that don't suck.

aB- · Jan 18, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nater

Comparison I was trying to make, and that and I've never seen a sword that reduces bleeding time.

Then I am confused as to how your setup with a HoD sword does this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nater

I don't think I can come up with anything close to a +17 Energy, 20/20 cast/recharege, +20 enchant weapon combo, that also reduces bleeding time for kicks.

Unless I am missing something, in which case, fill me in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nater

You're all implying with the Pro HoD arguments that the sword is not imbalanced. So why is it not craftable anymore?

The reason should not be that big of a deal. My guess is that ANet wanted another rare item to stimulate the economy. The HoD sword can be compared to a crystalline sword or fellblades. They are rare items that do not give an advantage (although in the HoD sword, a SLIGHT advantage is created) but are rare and almost exciting to have.

David Lionmaster · Jan 18, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nater

Think of what goes in the offhand. The Yak doesn't have 20% fast cast along with recharge.

get a collectors staff and add an insightful staff head and an enchant wrapping... there you go.

Rahl · Jan 18, 2006, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Well, the sole reason I purchased a HoD sword was because ANet saw fit to totally screw healing monks.

In that I mean, as Divinus Stella mentioned earlier that staves can have the same exact stats, and they're collectors items.. but you seem not to know that there is no 10/20/20 healing staff!

For some reason, its only Protection and Divine Favor(<--WTF?).

I got the HoD so that I could retain my 12/20/20 Healing offhand, as well as having 20% longer enchantments (invalueble..)

Mandy Memory · Jan 18, 2006, 11:04 PM // 23:04

I agree this is on the broken list...but it is a lot lower than other items

1. lt helm
2. 20/20 axe
3. prolly this and a few more items

the list goes on and on, asborbtion rune might even be on it, because other classes dont have anything that is like it. (Oh how I miss my Fury runes)

HOMIE_G64 · Jan 18, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by aB-

The reason should not be that big of a deal. My guess is that ANet wanted another rare item to stimulate the economy. The HoD sword can be compared to a crystalline sword or fellblades. They are rare items that do not give an advantage (although in the HoD sword, a SLIGHT advantage is created) but are rare and almost exciting to have.

Yes it is rare and exiting to have. But according to these other posts, it is a HUGE advantage. Ok what you are missing out here is what the people paid for the HoD Sword. They paid A LOT of money for one from another player. When they hit you with one, they are NOT hitting you with an imbalanced weapon, they are hitting you with a sword that costs 14hrs/7days GW farming. Realize that they PAID for it and therefore, should be REWARDED. Just because their team is owning your team with a flawless victory because they have a HoD Sword dosen't mean that the game is unbalanced. Consider what i said. Think about it the next time you play a PvP and you can probably control your anger.

aB- · Jan 18, 2006, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOMIE_G64

Yes it is rare and exiting to have. But according to these other posts, it is a HUGE advantage. Ok what you are missing out here is what the people paid for the HoD Sword. They paid A LOT of money for one from another player. When they hit you with one, they are NOT hitting you with an imbalanced weapon, they are hitting you with a sword that costs 14hrs/7days GW farming. Realize that they PAID for it and therefore, should be REWARDED. Just because their team is owning your team with a flawless victory because they have a HoD Sword dosen't mean that the game is unbalanced. Consider what i said. Think about it the next time you play a PvP and you can probably control your anger.

I would disagree with nearly everything you just said. According to almost all of the other posts, including mine, the HoD sword is a MINIMAL advantage. Your philosophy is exactly the opposite of ANet. They believe that time spent farming and getting gold should not be related to skill. That is why they offer the best weapons free for PvP characters, the best armor, and a level 20 character.

tymeless · Jan 18, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Honestly,
I find this thread funny...
yes, HoD is inbalanced, but just because your opponent has it does not mean you have lost, in fact, the chances of the HoD tipping the victory to the other team is 1%. The scenarios that you ppl are pointing out are unrealistic (who the heck is going to drop to 0mana and back to full 100, even 50times in a match??) and it makes it seem like u guys have close matches, where 10health or 5mana makes or breaks game everyday.

The arguement that all the teams playing in the world championship are using it is a very weak arguement. The teams competing are pros, meaning they are playing for money and since money is a factor that means they want to have EVERY advantage they can get, no matter how small, so that 1% is meaningful to them and unless you are a hardcore gamer, that 1% wont mean a thing to you and if u are a hardcore gamer, then i pity u for sucking so bad and not being able to dish out 300k for it.
The hex helmet is a different story, so if u want to complain about that please start another thread and keep it out of here.
And lastly,
The 20% axe was a MAJOR exploit and was out of anet's hands, the combos that would ruin PvP w/ a 40% longer enchant mod are numerous ( a CLEAR unfair advantage could be achieved using mistform, ob flesh, spellbreaker, mark of protection, shield of judgement, ect. and even the ability to maintain some of these enchantments forever could be achieved thro this)
The HoD gives a very minor advantage and the chances of it changing the outcome of the match is slim to none and even if it does somehow change the outcome, it wont be noticeable (ie: OMFGZ! THE ONLY REASON Y U WON IS CUZ OF THAT STUPID HOD SWORD N00B)
the HoD sword was purely Anet's fault, and ppl who have purchased one should not have to pay for a mistake they made, the only fair way for it to be eliminated from the game is to delete the sword and to leave the sword's value in gold in the player's account, which anet will never do, so sorry but the HoD sword is here to stay.

Vilaptca · Jan 18, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

To quote Ensign in another thread:

So if most decent players are using an item, is that a sign of imbalance? Yes, I think so. Admittedly as Ensign also points out the LT's helm is considerably more imbalanced than the other henge items, but that does not change the fact that they ARE imbalanced.

Anets motto is "Skill over time spent". So if I want my monk to be as good as everyone elses in PvP, do I have to grind and farm untill I can afford a Henge Sword? Yes, I do. If I want a completely up to scratch PvP warrior, do I have to create a PvP character and get him kitted out with perfect weapons and a LT's helm? Yes, I do.

There is no real argument for keeping the Henge items (and other simmilar items) in the game. There is a very strong argument for taking them out.

Did you decide to leave Ensign's third paragraph out of that quote for a reason? Seeing as he has no problem with the HoD sword, I have no idea why you would even take his argument, delete parts of it, to make it seem like he supports you.

The rest of Ensign's quote:

"This isn't a trivial item like the HoD Sword or Axe (which give minor boosts that'll likely be mirrored in expensions anyway). This helm fundamentally breaks an important aspect of the game - hexes as a means of punishing Warriors. The sooner it is removed, the better off the game will be.

Peace,
-CxE"

HoD sword is not game breaking at all. Not even close. There is no reason right now to ever delete them from players accounts.

Nater · Jan 18, 2006, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilaptca

HoD sword is not game breaking at all. Not even close. There is no reason right now to ever delete them from players accounts.

So why is not craftable at Denravi anymore?

KamikazeChicken · Jan 18, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nater

K, so the 20/20, which was an accident is a bad thing, but the HoD which was an accident is an ok thing.

20/20 axes were a bug/exploit that is a direct offense of the EULA. HoD swords are a legit item created by Anet and later taken away from crafters. It offers no overwhelming benefits, so they'll never do anything against those who own one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nater

These players would be "hurt" by having the HoD sword taken away, yet they're allowed to make 100's of plat worth of gold from it. Ya that's fair and balanced.

Gold amounts relate to balance in exactly what way? Gold is meaningless in Guild Wars, and I don't understand why the majority of people havn't realized this. Most "green" items are utter trash, but they're worth something for their color. The same can be said of most golds, but that's just stupidity among humanity. The only way the players are "hurt" is by losing an item they were allowed to have at the time. The person spent the cost to craft to have a specific item, and those people shouldn't be penalized because Anet decides the item shouldn't ever have been placed in the game. I still can't understand the bitching about HoD swords when they're ONLY 300k. With such a low price, there has to be an extensive supply in circulation. They'd be considered unbalanced if only about 100 swords survived; they'd be nearly priceless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nater

Hmm.
I don't think I can come up with anything close to a +17 Energy, 20/20 cast/recharege, +20 enchant weapon combo, that also reduces bleeding time for kicks.

1. HoD swords don't reduce bleeding. I'm glad you took the time to smoke something before posting.

2. Any staff (20/20) can get 15 eng and 20% enchant [ZOMG 2 ENG LESS THAN HoD!1!!one!1], and certain Rod (3-5/20)+Focus (20/20) combos range from 15-17 eng. Have any desired 20% enchant item on swap for any major enchants. It's not like switching to a new wep to cast Aegis or other enchants is overly hard.

3. If you really care about the item I dismissed in #1, get the quest reward focus that reduces bleeding and poison time. The dandy little item also has at least +6 eng, if not +8.

Moral of the lesson: Start using items on switch and stop trying to define balance with a price tag in plat.

JR · Jan 18, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilaptca

Did you decide to leave Ensign's third paragraph out of that quote for a reason? Seeing as he has no problem with the HoD sword, I have no idea why you would even take his argument, delete parts of it, to make it seem like he supports you.

The rest of Ensign's quote:

"This isn't a trivial item like the HoD Sword or Axe (which give minor boosts that'll likely be mirrored in expensions anyway). This helm fundamentally breaks an important aspect of the game - hexes as a means of punishing Warriors. The sooner it is removed, the better off the game will be.

Peace,
-CxE"

HoD sword is not game breaking at all. Not even close. There is no reason right now to ever delete them from players accounts.

""Admittedly as Ensign also points out the LT's helm is considerably more imbalanced than the other henge items, but that does not change the fact that they ARE imbalanced."

"It has a clear advantage over anything else, which equals imbalance. That is a fact. Therefore, something should eventually be done about it. It certainly isn't urgent at all, but eventually it needs to be looked at."

I never said the HoD sword is "game breaking" or anything quite so dramatic. I just pointed out that personally I think the HoD sword should be removed. If you don't think they are that good, why do people pay 100K + 20 ecto for them or whatever the price is at now? Because people like to have the best equipment available. And when you need to grind for days to get the gold to do that, in a game that is supposedly "skill over time", something is wrong. And it is a price that is only going to increase with time, unless something even better comes along with chapter 2.

Nater · Jan 18, 2006, 11:54 PM // 23:54

So we're all in majority agreement that there's no advantage to having a HoD sword?

aB- · Jan 19, 2006, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

why do people pay 100K + 20 ecto for them or whatever the price is at now?

But bluntly, people are stupid. They are willing to pay outragous sums for minor benefits. Yes, the HoD sword IS the best thing there is, but that is not why everyone buys it. People are fooled into buying the most expensive thing thinking it offers huge benefits when they often times do not. For example, +30HP upgrades are much more expensive than +5 armor upgrades, yet the +5 armor is arguably better. A weapon with +14% damage versus a weapon with +15% damage offer little to no damage increase, yet the 15% weapons sells for much more. Most people just like having something that is rare, and because this rare item happens to be good, they use it as well. Again, similar to a crystalline sword.

Personally, I wouldn't pay over 20k for the sword, and that is why I will probably never buy one.

Ensign · Jan 19, 2006, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nater

I don't think I can come up with anything close to a +17 Energy, 20/20 cast/recharege, +20 enchant weapon combo, that also reduces bleeding time for kicks.

For a reasonable alternative to the Henge of Denravi Sword, you should try the Fiery Flame Spitter from Nicanor Gannel in the Pockmark Flats. It's arguably better than the HoD sword and around .001% of the cost.

I'll go on the record stating that I don't think the HoD sword should be removed. There are lots of items in the game that have been removed that can give minor advantages - the HoD sword and axe are the most popularly quoted ones, but the old Arid Sea weapons (+15% damage with no condition or drawback at all) are floating around as well. There is PvE uberloot with PvP ramifications: +15% damage / -5 energy weapons are outstanding; there are -2/-2 and -2/-3 shields, some with requirements as low as 7; you can get wands and foci with 10/10 cast speed and recharge for a mixed build, or one with 20% recharge and no other mod to work better in a timed spike build. There are +30 health shields with no condition whatsoever. Then there are quest and collector items that have PvP usage: the Fiery Flame Spitter, the Cities of Ascalon foci, the Nolani Fire Wand, the Fires In The East trapping staff. There's the holiday Candy Cane Wand that has potential PvP usage. In short, there are a whole lot of items in the game, some pricey, some not, and that variety is what makes the game fun for a lot of people.

I don't feel that there's a problem with any of this. In fact I think that these unique items, and even the 'legendary' items like the henge sword are good for the game. I think that people need to stop focusing on 'perfect balance' and .001% advantages and all of that trite stuff. Arena.net is trying to appeal to many different interests, and one of those, like it or not, likes a wide variety of items. The character creation system that allows us to roll up PvP characters on demand and be competitive with some of the best weapons in the game is phenomenal. I feel that people who are getting worked up over a meaningless +2 (you can roll a staff you know) energy at a cost of being able to attack need to get over themselves and play the game. It's pretty good, you know.

Peace,
-CxE

generik · Jan 19, 2006, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Indeed, like that +2 energy is going to do you any good when you can just stare at the dying nightmare unable to wand it..

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jan 19, 2006, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Alrighty then...
I would like to contribute several things that have not already been stated, and would also like to recap on a few things that have been stated.

First of all, I am the proud owner of a HoD *accepts cheers etc.* But I was not one about 2 weeks ago. I saved up my plat from several weeks of griffen farming with my ele, several long weeks. I then bought my denravi for the price of 240plat, in ecto. I then upgraded it with a 20% pommel I bought earlier that day for 2ecto+5k. I got a great deal on these items, but thats what happens when you shop around, I must have bid/posted on at least 50 HoD auctions ranging from this site to rpgtraders, where I eventually bought it. As a note, I never asked for this item to be removed, nerfed, killed, etc-ever- I made a goal, kept my sights on my goal, and accomplished my goal.

Now then, onward
-If we are truly going to argue over 2 energy, lets argue over the fires in the east staff, which can give you a whopping 3 energy and still keep that 20% bonus, how about that? Ok so it doesn't give you the 20% bonus huh? Ok so I also have a +5energy>50% health truncheon that also gives +20% recharge to inspiration magic. Now, lets recap abit. The staff can be obtained for about...free, 50gold if you high a newbie runner{lol}. OR you could take my wand, which I admit I am rather proud of owning, and compare it to denravi. On one hand we have 20% enc, and in the other we have 20% recharge...close ehh? Or we could compare the wand to the staff, +3energy and 20% to 20% cast and 40% recharge...or the staff to the denravi +1energy to 20/20 recharge and cast.

Now everyone is going to have their preferences, I admit I like the wand for my mesmer, but thats the way I am. I will take it anyday for her over my denravi because it increases recharge on insp to 40%, which makes manataps and ether feast broken imo. The staff is my second choice, as the +3 energy is rarly ever useful, as I have taps etc, but they do help.

{notes that the staff does NOT have a requirement for ANY energy gain, a warrior could use it and it would be comparable to denravi+ANY focus item (also notes that foci have req}

So the denravi really only comes into use with builds that need the 2ndary item, such as the 55 build, which I dont see needing the +2 energy, they gain that much whenever they get hit anyway. Or the IW mesmer build, which I have yet to see as a success.

Red Locust · Jan 19, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

The lieutenant's helm is a huge pain in the ass. I made the mistake of unlocking warrior skills with my monk instead of my warrior, and now I'm left trying to scrape together a ton of skillpoints for warrior unlocks. Not to mention all the runes, different armor sets, and items (including those items that are long gone and almost impossible to find). All that for a helmet that can unfortunately make quite a bit of a difference.