Curse

Zehnchu · Jan 19, 2006, 03:47 AM // 03:47

The way I see the helm gives warriors a little bit better chance to survive hexes, if you are going to get rid of the helm you might was well get rid of any items that has a quick recovery. Because it’s an unfair advantage of quickly recovering from a condition put on them. Secondly if the hex is removed you have to recast anyways the only difference is the period of time in which you have to recast.

Casters say the helm is over powered, warriors say hex are to overpowering. The helm is balance.

TMWNN · Jan 19, 2006, 03:54 AM // 03:54

In the builds my guild runs we usually only have 2 warriors at max, amusingly I've been using my pve warrior with a HoD helm and Traznits shield for at least 6 months in tombs. I can see the problem with the helm whe going vs warrior heavy teams (such as is the current FOTM in GvG) but with only 1 or 2 warriors on a team, the helm doesnt really help much.

In a pressure style build the warriors are generally the only team member putting out decent DPS and everyone is relying on you to make the kills. So if I get hit by SS even with half duration it means I'm doing nothing untill tis removed, which means my team isnt getting kills. The helm doesnt help me as the hex still lasts to long enough to stop me making kills and DP'ing the enemy.

Using life transfer/phantasm as an example is a bit dumb though, only times i've gone vs those hexes is when you're up against a newb team. The only hexes that I care about are SS, empathy and maybe ineptitude.

kvndoom · Jan 19, 2006, 04:08 AM // 04:08

It's so funny that this item has been in the game since day one and now all of a sudden there is this flood of complaining about it. If it imbalances the game, then it has done so from day one, but for the past 9 months since GW came out, nobody had a problem with it.

Most PvE players who use this use it strictly for running. This + Holy Veil make for good anti-hex running combo.

Reading this thread makes it obvious that the majority of complainers are PvP casters. Once again the gaping rift between PVP and PVE players rears its ugly head. I still remember 2 months ago all the PVP players pointing and laughing at the AoE nerf, even though how people choose to farm / grind did not affect them in any way whatsoever. Now there's a PvE item which threatens (gasp) a change in strategy, and it has to go! No questions asked, it has to go! Then if it does get nerfed due to PvP whining, a lot of existing or aspiring runners are screwed out of being able to play the game their way, when they weren't even doing anything wrong.

I sometimes wish that there was no way any pve item or content could be used in PvP or GvG. Just put up a wall between the two and let people play how they choose.

Morangen · Jan 19, 2006, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

It's so funny that this item has been in the game since day one and now all of a sudden there is this flood of bitching about it. If it imbalances the game, then it has done so from day one, but for the past 9 months since GW came out, nobody had a problem with it.

Thats because hexes have become alot more popular then they were.

It actally has been talked about before, but not to this great length. The thing I think is (as someone mentioned), the fact that players are getting very good at the game. There have been some very effective skill sets created that are drastically affected by the item. Heck, its gotten to the point that I want to go into a barbaric rage whenever I see a mesmer or a necro, just because of how pathetically fast they can kill my war if they want. But thats strategy. I just dont like it.

Thats one reason why I like that helm (but I have never used one). My war has one, but I have never put it on (got it because it was different). This is just one of those things that people will argue and fight for till the bitter end. Casters want it gone because it makes their job harder, but Warriors like it because it gives them a chance to actually get close to do his job without being dead 5 feet from the caster while the necro laughs.

Tortoise · Jan 19, 2006, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

It's so funny that this item has been in the game since day one and now all of a sudden there is this flood of complaining about it. If it imbalances the game, then it has done so from day one, but for the past 9 months since GW came out, nobody had a problem with it.

The main reason for that will probably be that the community has only realized the existence of this helm pretty recently. The same was true for the HoD swords and the SoA axes. Those last were being used by a couple of people at least a month before the SoA axe became public knowledge. Simply because the complaints are of a recent date does not mean the complaints aren't valid.

[Edit] The fact that warrior builds (IWAY!) have never been more prevalent then today will also have something to do with it. In times of Chain lightning spikes, smiting and spirit spamming there simply wasn't much reason to hex warriors. Today there is, and the fact that one item can do away with those hexes so easily is simply stunning. To make the comparison with conditional removal: most conditions can be removed very easily. Condition removal generally only cost 5 energy and all of the condition removal skills have a quick recharge. The existence of a 'lowers condition X duration' isn't that imbalancing because conditions simply are already easily removed. Hexes are a totally different story. While skills like restore C, draw C and martyr ensure quick and easy condition removal no matter the amount of conditions there simply is no hex-removing equivalent.

lishi · Jan 19, 2006, 05:32 AM // 05:32

i think you lost the point ,

while this is not fair for mesmer/necro/water ele is much less fair for a warrior without helm compared to one with it ...

aeroclown · Jan 19, 2006, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morangen

Thats because hexes have become alot more popular then they were.

It actally has been talked about before, but not to this great length. The thing I think is (as someone mentioned), the fact that players are getting very good at the game. There have been some very effective skill sets created that are drastically affected by the item. Heck, its gotten to the point that I want to go into a barbaric rage whenever I see a mesmer or a necro, just because of how pathetically fast they can kill my war if they want. But thats strategy. I just dont like it.

Thats one reason why I like that helm (but I have never used one). My war has one, but I have never put it on (got it because it was different). This is just one of those things that people will argue and fight for till the bitter end. Casters want it gone because it makes their job harder, but Warriors like it because it gives them a chance to actually get close to do his job without being dead 5 feet from the caster while the necro laughs.

Oh yikes, thats it you hit the nail on the head. Because Hexs have become popular, as have many other fly by night builds, when something intefers with that build, people that Pvp primarily all of a sudden cry a river for Anet, until it changes, so that they can have an easy go at what should not be easy at all. Many people will of course read this and dispute it and call me an idiot, but hey, im just stating what I have seen around the block on forums alike. Far be it from me, to point out a fact of the matter. Even if an item or skill is truely over powered and unbalanced, where is the fun in finding a way to beat what seems unbeatable, when all you have to do is complain enough to get rid of the road block. I say, Like I have once heard before, the games that I remember most, the experiences I remember most, are those that included things that appeared on the surface unbeatable and unachieveable, Its a challenge of my ability to creatively assess a situation and find a solution.

lishi · Jan 19, 2006, 05:34 AM // 05:34

without helm it will be 2 times more devastating , see the point?

Savio · Jan 19, 2006, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quick mod reminder: if you can't make a thought-out post that isn't more than "lol you noobs your wrong" then don't bother posting. This is the community discussion forum, not the flaming forum.

Rajamic · Jan 19, 2006, 06:14 AM // 06:14

A lot of the reason this wasn't an issue a long time ago is because for the first...what was it, 4 months...hexes were already completely removed from the metagame by Nature's Renewal spam.

The argument for at least toning the Helm down really does echo the NR nerf argument as well. The more things something effect, the less power it should have on those things. If a piece of equipment reducing the duration of a particular condition by 33% is fair (and apparently ANet decided that was too much), then why should a piece of equipment that reduces the duration of a whole larger class of effects reduce them by more? Logically, it should be less, something like 10% less duration, by comparison.

If there was an offhand that had this effect, every person in the game would have one with them at all times, even if it did nothing else. I'm sure Monks would love to cut the length of Backfire, Arcane Conundrum, and Migraine in half.

A team of warriors with these helms practically have an invisible extra teammate spamming the old NR.

Merry Madrigal · Jan 19, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

I respect the argument Chuck is making immensely, but some of the other arguments are making my head spin. Now Tanzit's Defender is a no-no because of the 33% reduction in blind? I mean, isn't that exactly why you would buy it or farm it? I think ANet thought that through before introducing the item.

Also this gem - "EDIT: After reading Ensign's message (which was posted while I was posting mine), I see another nerf coming up in the future as well (or a change somehow): multiple helms/armour sets. After all, PvP -only players can't have multiple helms to change in combat (such as when defending the HoH against various builds) and can only change helms between matches by creating a new character. Without the hex helm, the only way I can see this mattering is with someone having a helm with sup and non-sup to counter dp within the match, but it's something anyways."

Whoa! Isn't that the whole beauty of good pvpable pve toons? I know I always play my pve monk in gvg for that reason - I have 4 armor sets and 11 different weapon combos to use, depending on the type of match I find myself in.

If I was too lazy to equip my pve toon that way, it would probably be greatly inferior to a pvp toon. But it's not. It's superior. But, why, exactly, is that a bad thing??

Isn't that one of the beauties of this wonderful game?

Red Locust · Jan 19, 2006, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merry Madrigal

I respect the argument Chuck is making immensely, but some of the other arguments are making my head spin. Now Tanzit's Defender is a no-no because of the 33% reduction in blind? I mean, isn't that exactly why you would buy it or farm it? I think ANet thought that through before introducing the item.

Also this gem - "EDIT: After reading Ensign's message (which was posted while I was posting mine), I see another nerf coming up in the future as well (or a change somehow): multiple helms/armour sets. After all, PvP -only players can't have multiple helms to change in combat (such as when defending the HoH against various builds) and can only change helms between matches by creating a new character. Without the hex helm, the only way I can see this mattering is with someone having a helm with sup and non-sup to counter dp within the match, but it's something anyways."

Whoa! Isn't that the whole beauty of good pvpable pve toons? I know I always play my pve monk in gvg for that reason - I have 4 armor sets and 11 different weapon combos to use, depending on the type of match I find myself in.

If I was too lazy to equip my pve toon that way, it would probably be greatly inferior to a pvp toon. But it's not. It's superior. But, why, exactly, is that a bad thing??

Isn't that one of the beauties of this wonderful game?

Another one of the beauties of this game is the ability to instantly create a PvP character that's actually PvP-capable. The more of these PvE-only items that pop up, the more useless this unique ability becomes.

Not to start another long-winded argument on whether ArenaNet meant for us to be able to start PvP characters from scratch and have them able to compete 100% with PvE characters, but let's just say that it's an absoultely excellent feature to the game and that it would be a damn shame to have it invalidated by high-end PvE items.

CyberNigma · Jan 19, 2006, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merry Madrigal

Also this gem - "EDIT: After reading Ensign's message (which was posted while I was posting mine), I see another nerf coming up in the future as well (or a change somehow): multiple helms/armour sets. After all, PvP -only players can't have multiple helms to change in combat (such as when defending the HoH against various builds) and can only change helms between matches by creating a new character. Without the hex helm, the only way I can see this mattering is with someone having a helm with sup and non-sup to counter dp within the match, but it's something anyways."

Whoa! Isn't that the whole beauty of good pvpable pve toons? I know I always play my pve monk in gvg for that reason - I have 4 armor sets and 11 different weapon combos to use, depending on the type of match I find myself in.

If I was too lazy to equip my pve toon that way, it would probably be greatly inferior to a pvp toon. But it's not. It's superior. But, why, exactly, is that a bad thing??

Isn't that one of the beauties of this wonderful game?

Heh, I made that comment, although you make it sound like I'm supporting or suggesting that be done. Actually, I was referring to Ensign's earlier comment. It's just like the HoD sword, Lt Helm, pre-nerf Rockmoulder,etc etc. If there's something PvE'ers have and PvP'ers don't then ANet will listen and change it. It may be them going overboard to prove they don't neglect PvP in a MMO game, or it may be legit (read: severe) balance issues. Regardless, I imagine it will happen eventually when PvPers (PvP only players, not players of both) realize they can't switch armours when they see who they are up against. Someone was even complaining fissure armour gives an advantage because you don't know what kind of armour they are wearing (for weaknesses or copying their build, I guess) whereas PvP players can't hide their armour types.

It all comes down to something that is 'different'. There will be someone that can find an advantage any time something is different (or cry foul anyways). PvP'ers have a massive advantage over PvE'ers. They can tell PvE'ers when they can go into Underworld and Fissure of Woe. Someone made the comment earlier about separating items for PvE and PvP. I think that may be a good idea. Separate items completely or allow only identical items to cross over. If you do that, you should also drop all non-sigil drops from HoH chests (assuming Crystalline swords still drop, among other items) or make them customized items like all other PvP items. If PvE'ers can't unbalance PvP, then PvP'ers shouldn't unbalance PvE (crystalline drops are very rare in PvE, but exist), and the economy is certainly part of PvE. Oh, and take out the UW/FoW dependency on who wins HoH so that PvE'ers don't have to rely on PvP'ers for their end-game areas.

By preventing just any item from entering the arenas (for PvE chars) then you can prevent any of this in the future happening. They can also just make items not compatible do nothing in PvP (though they can still be carried so you don't have to store them each time your PvE char PvP's). This, of course, should not apply to the non level 20 arenas since PvP-only chars can't enter them anyways. This solves the HoD problem, Rockmoudler problem, Lt Helm problem (and keeps it for runners), any future problems.

As I said before, don't look at this as PvP-only player bashing, the PvE-only player community cries just as much (look at how many are crying about the pvp event this weekend, even though we got the grenth's footprint/sorrow's furnace expansion for PvE). I personally like to do both (though not with the same characters anymore) and hate seeing either side nerfed because of the other. I am guessing that PvP'ers have been nerfed due to PvE'ers, but the only thing I can think of is maybe prot bond.

All of these nerf threads should be combined because they always lead to the same discussion.

tafy69 · Jan 19, 2006, 08:36 AM // 08:36

omg I only just found out about this helm! thats freaking ridicilous, imagine iway team with these helms....

I will be using these helms in my teams, and not bothering with too many anti warrior hexes for the time being. I wish someone told me about this helm sooner lol

Numa Pompilius · Jan 19, 2006, 10:09 AM // 10:09

I spectated a bunch of matches yesterday, and in pretty much all of them the warriors were hiding their helmets. The only reason I can think of for doing that, is to not show whether you're wearing the HoD helmet or a weapons attribute helmet.

I hadn't heard about this helmet earlier, but, again FWIW, I tested it in CA yesterday, and yeah, it works as advertised. It seemed few used it in CA yet, but I expect that will change soon enough now that it's out in the open.

I support Ensigns suggestion to nerf the effect. I don't like 'must have' items.

Raxxman · Jan 19, 2006, 10:28 AM // 10:28

I'm still not buying this, from what I'm reading people are unhappy cause its unbalanced they're mesmer/necro/ele/whatever can't shut down multiple warriors indefinitely cause of the helm?

It should be PvP enabled. Warriors do loose ability (however little) waring this helm and a warrior/warrior fight the one with the helm is at a disadvantage.

Life syphon doesn't work as well... Boo fraking hoo, use insidious parasite, it's twice as effective.

Fact is you STILL shut the warrior down, just not for as long.

Cripple the warrior, use wards, slow him down

Deathqueen · Jan 19, 2006, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Well I have to believe the Devs knew what they were doing and why they were doing this when they created the Lt. Helm. It is only by discovery that one finds it and is able to use it for the benefit it was created for. Playing as a warrior I thought it was all too damn easy for casters to degen me down to nothingness, now, with this helm I finally feel equality, just as the Devs designed the helm to be for.

The only whiners our there are the casters who are now finding out they can no longer pwn warriors so "easily" anymore. If anything this helm brings balance into the equation. Get used to it, it's not going anywhere.

Also about PVP only vs PVE characters for PVP, it's ALWAYS been widely known that the PVE made character for PVP was ALWAYS going to be better than just a plain jane pre-made or custom made character. This has never changed from fact, if you want the BEST PVP character you're going to still HAVE to play the PVE game. You can't have multiple suits of armor, you can't have more than 2 weapons and 2 focus items and you can't have the little goodies like this helm for them either. Guess you'll just have to start playing the PVE game won't you? (smile)

Poised · Jan 19, 2006, 11:34 AM // 11:34

This is a PVP debate, Im a PVE player, and I find it distastefull that PVE'ers would come into a discussion like this and cry about not being able to farm money on the droks run if the helm is changed, I hope the devs pay attention to the PVP'ers in this matter, and blatently ignores the PVE farmers.

cataphract · Jan 19, 2006, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirhan shadowmauler

right now so many necro/mesmers are doing warrior shut down. THAT is imbalanced. not this helm.

LMAO

Ensign · Jan 19, 2006, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Before this thread finishes its tailspin into a pile of unreadable drek, I'd like to point out something:

My guild made $10,000 last week playing Guild Wars, and I'm flying to Taipei next month on the back of PvE Warriors with Denravi helmets.

So before you post some more mind-numbing nonsense that addresses everything *except* the points at hand, would you please do us a favor and pull your heads out of your collective asses?

If you truly believe that all balance discussions are simply 'my class versus your class' or 'PvE versus PvP' or other black and white nincompoopery, perhaps you should spend more time learning about a subject instead of demonstrating your ignorance to the entire forum.

Peace,
-CxE