Curse

Weezer_Blue · Jan 24, 2006, 12:40 AM // 00:40

There's no point to it. If you do it in the Team Arenas you usually get steamrolled. If you did it in the tombs you'd get killed by the NPC battle.

Hell Marauder · Jan 24, 2006, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

There's no point to it. If you do it in the Team Arenas you usually get steamrolled. If you did it in the tombs you'd get killed by the NPC battle.

True. But it's never about winning or losing, it's all about equal access. When the game first came out, there's no rank requirement. Now that requirement is higher and higher, can anyone dare say the access to teaming now is the same as it was 6 months ago? And saying you have to join a dedicated pvp guild to access this part of game is completely bull. Everyone pays the same money buying this game, why should someone with rank 6 get to play right away and someone with no rank have to sit for hours for grouping? This also runs against the spirit of this game against "grind". Again, it's about "equal access" to play, not to win.

Eder · Jan 24, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

They had some awesome ideas and wanted to join a group. Problem was, they were rank 0.

They could've formed their own group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

I PAID for it though, so it is my right to play in it.

Youd paid for a not-random 8v8 tournament which you can play. You didn't pay for a 8v8 random tournament.

(I'm not saying it's a bad idea - but you have *not* paid for something like that, and *replacing* the current not-random 8v8 tournament with it is a bad idea).

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

What about those new players without contacts or not in a guild (since you need to be rank 3 according to some people)? Left out.

I'll say this again. You need to be rank nothing to make a few friends in this game. Therefore, you need to be rank nothing to have a team for whatever it is.

I've been through 4 guilds since I started playing GW. None of them was PvP focused, but I still can get at least a few guildies to join me in HoH when we feel like it. The fact that we play HoH casually means most of us are rank 0, but it's not hard to convince PUG people that you mean business when you have at least half a team worth of guildies.

Every rank 3 guy out there was rank 0 once, and not all of them had to resort to FotMs or whatever else it is that your morals condemn to get their rank.

Don't get me wrong - there's nothing wrong with making friends-only casual-style guilds just to play together (PvE or casual PvP) and chat with your friends... but acting as if *the game* is to blame because you do not have enough team mates for HoH?

Want to keep it a friends only guild? Good, then if you want to HoH, meet someone else who's also rank 0 and a few men short to HoH but wants to, and you'll do it together. If you are not part of a guild or are part of a guild that never has enough people on to form even half a team, that can only mean you're not *interested* in having enough people on to form half a team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

All I'm asking is an 8 on 8 random tournament.

No, you're asking to *turn* the *current* not-random 8v8 tournament a lot of people like into a 8v8 random tournament which you would like.

That's what's causing the heated debate here... I don't think anyone would have anything against the *addition* of a 8v8 random tournament that gave no fame or sigils.

Personally, I'd be a lot more interested in a not-random 8v8 tournament that gave no fame or sigils... that'd be as good a training ground as any for the HoH, since a tournament with no rewards or guild requirement would probably remain easily accessible to everyone indefinitely. Then again, the rank 0 or guildless people who would benefit from it would probably prefer to disregard this tournament and instead keep complaining that one very specific part of the PvP game whose rewards are clearly oriented towards the more "grind-inclined" people is not easily accessible to everyone.

Oh well. People sometimes don't seem to understand that a game "designed for everyone" is a game where there are different features designed for different people... as opposed to being one big game that throws everyone together in the same pool and makes them all do the same thing.

Fantus · Jan 24, 2006, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'm not going to pretend that the rank system is perfectly fair, and there are some very good, unranked players out there. But, reality check time - if you're in that PvE guild and can't bear to leave, if you won't change your character to fit a team build, if you don't even spend enough time in PvP zones to make friends and contacts for organized groups, then *you probably suck.* If you can't or won't to put the time or effort into being good then why should anyone care when you're not picked for the team?

To add some grey color to your black and white world, just let me say that the players who are reluctant to leave their current guild for a PvP only guild are not necessarily the same ones who refuse to change their skillbar according to the team build. Yes, there are horrible players in Tombs. Yes, most of them don't have a rank, too. Yes, that's why you good players don't take them into your groups. That's perfectly understandable - I would do the same if I were in your position.

Nevertheless, the "change guilds" argument is completely missing the point. The point is that there are NO PvP options in GW for those you call "weekend warriors". We have 4x4 random arenas which gets terribly old after you played in there for like 150 hours. As a lot of people have already said on this forum, RA is filled to capacity with horrible players who don't even understand their own character, leave alone these "advanced" concepts like target calling. We have 4x4 Team Arenas, which are slightly better, but yes, even those are rather meant for new PvP players (or for the quick fun) and they will get old after some time, too (add another 100 hours of playtime here).

A "weekend warrior" is someone between a new PvP player and people like you, Ensign. They might regularly play PvP just as you do - they just don't invest 6 hours a day for it unlike you probably do. A "weekend warrior" could even be someone who has clocked 2,000 hours of playtime, but splits them into PvP and PvE since s/he loves to do both (such as myself). GW lacks PvP options for those players. THAT's the whole point the "random 8v8 arena" idea is trying to make. The problem could have other solutions, such as leagues. Because, as you rightfully stated, people like you (pro) and me (weekend warrior) play in different ones. It really doesn't make sense to throw the two of us into the same pot. The rank system is not flawed (as far as I can tell, it works as intended), it's only the most visible manifestation of the real flaw - that there are no PvP options for "weekend warriors". We could just have a copy of the existing, non random HA and make it accessible for rank 0-5 people only (with less fame rewards than the other HA, of course). Problem solved. Just to add another idea to the discussion.

M1h4iL · Jan 24, 2006, 08:44 AM // 08:44

/NOT signed
Might be a good addition so you have a choice to do random 8vs8 or organised 8vs8 but being random defeats the purpose of having anything organised, for balanced or spiker groups.

MaaKotka · Jan 24, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

A "weekend warrior" is someone between a new PvP player and people like you, Ensign. They might regularly play PvP just as you do - they just don't invest 6 hours a day for it unlike you probably do. A "weekend warrior" could even be someone who has clocked 2,000 hours of playtime, but splits them into PvP and PvE since s/he loves to do both (such as myself). GW lacks PvP options for those players. THAT's the whole point the "random 8v8 arena" idea is trying to make. The problem could have other solutions, such as leagues. Because, as you rightfully stated, people like you (pro) and me (weekend warrior) play in different ones. It really doesn't make sense to throw the two of us into the same pot. The rank system is not flawed (as far as I can tell, it works as intended), it's only the most visible manifestation of the real flaw - that there are no PvP options for "weekend warriors". We could just have a copy of the existing, non random HA and make it accessible for rank 0-5 people only (with less fame rewards than the other HA, of course). Problem solved. Just to add another idea to the discussion.

If you guys have any social skills and you act politely when you play ANY side of this game, you should get eough ingame friends easily to get into a decent group in HA anytime you want. Assuming you use friends list. And you dont have to spend even nearly 6 hours a day to get those friends. Atleast I didn't. Also what prevents you to form a new team in HA? That is what I can't understand.

MaaKotka · Jan 24, 2006, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Sry for doublepost.

sun is in us · Jan 24, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

/Signed. At least someplace this needs to happen....my reasons are my own.

OR, They need to change the group formation process.

If they used a version similar to City of Heroes (was the best group formation system I have seen in an Ice Age), which is a sister company (go sit in with those guys for a day), then group formation would not be as tedious.

I just don't like wasting so much time for groups in PVP or (the rare times I am in the mood) PVE.

TheCrusader · Jan 25, 2006, 12:15 AM // 00:15

/worst Idea Ever

Ensign · Jan 25, 2006, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

Now that requirement is higher and higher, can anyone dare say the access to teaming now is the same as it was 6 months ago?

Access to teaming is exactly the same as it was 6 months ago. If you want to join a random unranked team and go, you can just as you did 6 months ago. The only difference, is that instead of likely running into another random unranked team in underworld and getting what could very well be an interesting, if sloppy, fight, you'll end up against an iWay team and you're going to be back in the lobby inside of two minutes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

Everyone pays the same money buying this game, why should someone with rank 6 get to play right away and someone with no rank have to sit for hours for grouping?

It's a consequence of one of the dirty little secrets of online gaming.

Go into any HA district that you'd like. Every character there has a player who falls into one of three categories:

1) The player already has a group, whether formed up with the other group members or not.
2) The player is AFK, or, rarely, just passing through (say for the Sigil trader).
3) The player is looking for a group.

At any given time, just about everyone who isn't grouped with anyone is in group 3.

Now count the number of groups forming. You'll notice that just about all of the ones actively being organized are rank 3 or rank 6 groups. Why is that? Well that's the trick, you see:

The people who have the initiative to form their own groups, or ask for invites to existing groups, find groups quickly, and move up the ranks accordingly. The number of unranked people who will pick up seven random strangers and try and make a group work out of it is practically nill, as those people move up very quickly. The rare motivated r0 guy comes into a district and advertises, he quickly adds those who message him, grabs a couple wallflowers who were lucky to be there...and in a couple weeks, he's flashing a deer and forming rank 0 groups, while the wallflowers continue to stand there and complain about rank 3 groups.

But do you know what makes it even worse for the unranked wallflower? The motivated r0 guy who comes into a district and forms a team of unranked strangers to try and earn some fame and get out of the "rank 0 hole"? He's forming an iWay group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

To add some grey color to your black and white world

I live in and for the grey. Zebra stripes are for inmates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

just let me say that the players who are reluctant to leave their current guild for a PvP only guild are not necessarily the same ones who refuse to change their skillbar according to the team build.

How long does one have to hang out in a district to make a friend? How often do you see, "XXX's team has won a battle in the Hall of Heroes"? If non-guild teams are winning the hall with regularity, wouldn't you think that the population of pickups in the lower tiers would be even greater? What about guild groups that only have 4-5 guys on and have to fill out their ranks? I can tell you that the 'pure' guild group is a rarity in HA.

I believe it to be impossible to socialize in a HA hotspot for any meaningful length of time and not meet anyone. Sure, you can talk to high ranked players, and many won't give you the time of day, and many of those who will just politely decline your company. How about the players who are spamming what they are looking for? They're the kind of people you want to know, people with the personality to form the groups you want to get into, and if they're spamming their contact list isn't big enough. Some of them are assholes. Some of them aren't. You need one that you like. One instantly becomes seven. Talk to the players you like, the ones you think are good. Repeat the process. Put group leaders on your friends list. Bug them when you want a group and see if they need anything. If you found a group, play matchmaker and invite friends from old groups. These things build upon themselves. There are enough people in the same boat as you, that all you have to do is find them.

The trick, as usual, is doing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

The point is that there are NO PvP options in GW for those you call "weekend warriors". We have 4x4 random arenas which gets terribly old after you played in there for like 150 hours. As a lot of people have already said on this forum, RA is filled to capacity with horrible players who don't even understand their own character, leave alone these "advanced" concepts like target calling...A "weekend warrior" could even be someone who has clocked 2,000 hours of playtime, but splits them into PvP and PvE since s/he loves to do both (such as myself). GW lacks PvP options for those players. THAT's the whole point the "random 8v8 arena" idea is trying to make.

Understood. Understand that my point is that random 8v8 would be just as bad as random 4v4. It would similarly be filled to the capacity with said horrible players who don't even understand their own character. It would solve exactly zero of your problems. It would solve zero problems, period - well, unless you think that CA is awesome.

My understanding of the problem, and correct me if I'm wrong, is two pronged:

1) It is incredibly difficult for a weekend warrior to form a peer group. The reasons for this have been and should continue to be examined since it's such a huge part of their userbase. To reiterate, I believe that this is largely a networking problem, and that future updates that help bridge that communication gap, such as the upcoming 'guild alliances' feature, will go a long way towards making the game more enjoyable for many players.

2) Once a team of weekend warriors does manage to form, they get destroyed on underworld by iWay most of the time. This is a separate balance problem, and one that is nigh-impossible to address without tackling that build directly.

Hopefully there's some chapter 2 content that can address these concerns, in terms of new battle arenas, because honestly I have no clue how arena.net could satisfy your focus group without destroying HoH as a competitive format.

Peace,
-CxE

{IceFire} · Jan 25, 2006, 01:25 AM // 01:25

not signed

use CA, FFS!

Weezer_Blue · Jan 25, 2006, 04:13 AM // 04:13

I agree with Ensign, however "moving up the ranks" isn't as easy as picking and choosing the players you need. Moving up the ranks is about starting from a low rank, at which time, very few players want to fight alongside you, and then trying to find players with the right skill unlocks to play the build you devised; or about you having the right skill unlocks and finding a group that will take you. The result of either of these is usually you getting killed by an IWAY group.

And thus: IWAY was born from this hell of a downward spiral called Fame. (meaning IWAY is by definition: Hellspawn). All the new players, the lazy players, or the players who can't find groups are doing it so that some day they may get into that "GLF Rank 6+ <Insert Some Other FOTM Group>er!".

Until drastic changes are made to the way Fame and Rank work, IWAY isn't going to dissappear until a counter that is, if possible, easier to construct than IWAY itself is invented.

Either that, or you can at least bring back my Rank Sticks. Those were awesome.

Divine Elemental · Jan 25, 2006, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

Just so I have to follow THEIR builds ? Nice, but I'll pass. I had bad experiences with them already.

dont they have, comp arena for this?...
/not signed.

QuixotesGhost · Jan 25, 2006, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

A "weekend warrior" is someone between a new PvP player and people like you, Ensign. They might regularly play PvP just as you do - they just don't invest 6 hours a day for it unlike you probably do. A "weekend warrior" could even be someone who has clocked 2,000 hours of playtime, but splits them into PvP and PvE since s/he loves to do both (such as myself). GW lacks PvP options for those players. THAT's the whole point the "random 8v8 arena" idea is trying to make. The problem could have other solutions, such as leagues. Because, as you rightfully stated, people like you (pro) and me (weekend warrior) play in different ones. It really doesn't make sense to throw the two of us into the same pot. The rank system is not flawed (as far as I can tell, it works as intended), it's only the most visible manifestation of the real flaw - that there are no PvP options for "weekend warriors". We could just have a copy of the existing, non random HA and make it accessible for rank 0-5 people only (with less fame rewards than the other HA, of course). Problem solved. Just to add another idea to the discussion.

What we "Weekend Warriors" need is 6 on 6.

Retro Knight · Jan 25, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

/signed

at least a random HoH too, like they have random and team 4 man.

Fantus · Jan 25, 2006, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Understood. Understand that my point is that random 8v8 would be just as bad as random 4v4. It would similarly be filled to the capacity with said horrible players who don't even understand their own character. It would solve exactly zero of your problems. It would solve zero problems, period - well, unless you think that CA is awesome.

Point taken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

My understanding of the problem, and correct me if I'm wrong, is two pronged:

1) It is incredibly difficult for a weekend warrior to form a peer group. The reasons for this have been and should continue to be examined since it's such a huge part of their userbase. To reiterate, I believe that this is largely a networking problem, and that future updates that help bridge that communication gap, such as the upcoming 'guild alliances' feature, will go a long way towards making the game more enjoyable for many players.

To my experience, that's exactly what happens. As you correctly stated, networking is the key for the those who want to get into HA PvP but aren't in a PvP guild. However at the moment you start it, you friends list will be empty and getting the first couple of good contacts is almost as troublesome as getting to rank 3, IMO. The "weekend warrior" userbase is quite heterogenous in itself. There are very active players who are on very often (who just didn't play enough HA yet to be ranked), those who will only play every one or two weeks, those who play both PvE and PvP and are doing Hell's Precipice whenever you want to invite them to your HA team...and so on. I have very often added people to my friends list who I've never seen online again.

I think alliances among guilds are a bit more promising since it can lead to drastically expand your contacts.

So, yes, I hope that Anet is aware of the problem and that they include mechanisms to deal with it in the next update - both in the form of advanced support of party forming and guild alliances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

2) Once a team of weekend warriors does manage to form, they get destroyed on underworld by iWay most of the time. This is a separate balance problem, and one that is nigh-impossible to address without tackling that build directly.

True enough. Which is why I have some hopes in the upcoming balance update. Currently the presence of IWAY in HA is way beyond what's still tolerable. I guess around 90% of all PUGs run it at the moment.

For a weekend warrior, the problem is like this (at least for those of us still refusing to play IWAY):

- forming group of weekend warriors: 30-60 minutes
- killing Zaishen: 2 minutes
- getting destroyed by IWAY in first map: 2 minutes
<team is ported back and immediately disbands (don't ask me why they do that..) >
- forming new team: 30-60 minutes
- killing Zaishen: 2 minutes
- destroying horrible IWAY team: 2 minutes (proudly adding one fame point to account)
- getting destroyed by better IWAY team in next area: 5 minutes
<group disbands>
- forming new team: 30-60 minutes
- killing Zaishen: 2 minutes
- getting destroyed by a rank 9+ team: 1.5 minutes
<group disbands>
(rinse and repeat until rank 3)

The biggest problem is the misrelation between the time you're actually fighting (and thus collecting experience) and the time you spend assembling your groups. I guess that's why a lot of weekend warriors lose interest in HA. The random area would eliminate the waiting time, but I do see your point that it would probably suck just as much as 4x4 RA.

Yes, I am really hoping for Chapter 2...

asdar · Jan 25, 2006, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Right now HA is a pain in the butt. Anyone that says differently is blind and stupid to not be able to see that. RA has tons of districts running and teams has what? 3 at most. On top of that RA is a mobile zone, meaning that you don't sit in there looking for a group so the population is only a fraction of the people playing at any time.

Tombs and Team are both filled with people looking for a group and there are usually 3 districts with people and a few without.

I think the problem would be better solved with a real grouping tool but this wouldn't hurt. They could give faction but no fame until 10 wins or something, just to give a larger random battlefield.

Why would you be against it is what I don't understand. It wouldn't hurt anyone at all, it might get more people PvP'ing and we almost all want that. I haven't seen one good reason not to have it.

Blaster The Warrior · Jan 25, 2006, 01:14 PM // 13:14

yeah but if you add people that are very noobish and don't know what to do it aint everything aswell. but i think the people should at least consider 2 invite rank 2 people. not oww woow rank 9 join us join us ! like that i prefer people giving a chance to noobish and if there not good just kick them later on then or give them a 2nd chance i bet it has almost happened to everyone in this game.

Vaga · Jan 25, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Im newb at tombs and yeah it is pretty lame but I can see how if i could get into a guild that pvps often and has some experienced players it would be really fun to do so thats the reason why I dont want it to be changed

A random arena kind of makes a joke of tombs it's meant to be somewhat serious and it would just be dumb because of how random your team could be. The winner of HoH would just be the team that forms the most balanced group. Think about it the odds of forming like 3 Monks 2 Warriors 1 Mesmer ect...to make a balanced group are low so basically that group could hold HoH until;

1. Another random balanced group is formed
2. That balanced group is better than they are

Even if they were seperate you wouldn't be able to have any rewards except for maybe some nice faction, and really it doesn't help anyone to do random arenas. Isn't the idea of the game to find a guild rather than just play solo?

It would be a better idea to make a training arena with 8 vs 8. I mean the practice builds like iway are way different, its one thing beating 4 warriors with pets its another when you can't stay in your ward vs melee and the warriors are buffed by an order and tainted necro.