Curse

Teufel Eldritch · Jan 23, 2006, 01:52 PM // 13:52

I don't want fame & I don't have a opinion either way whether or not HA should go random but...it sure would be nice if there was a 8v8 RA.

MarkyX · Jan 23, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

For someone INITIATING a debate (because that's what this is) he can't just come out here and say "this is a fact and this is a fact and this is a fact because i say so".

He stated what he thought was the truth, and I kindly asked for some evidence to back up those claims. This is how things go.

Okay, proof on the population that is playing less tombs: There is way less districts then there was at the beginning (I remember 10+ districts on game launch) and they had to reduce the number of teams to 2 because the game found it hard to six or three teams to face each other.

Look at the guild ladder and you'll see the same guilds at the top. Surely if there was many people PvPing that we would be seeing new competition, right?

Deathqueen · Jan 23, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Yep I have to agree HoH pvping has gone way down. When I first started districts were packed, but, now they have thinned out a lot and PUGs are practically a rarity. Too many picky people and everyone is only concerned with winning (or thinking they can) I get so tickled at these must have vent and/or ts and they're getting their butts stomped just like those that don't have ts or vent. laffin In fact I won all of my fame in groups without ts or vent, never won a single time in a ts or vent group. Silence is better because you can concentrate better. I even turn down my sound when in arena's. Just like a blind or deaf mans other senses increase when they don't have the function of those others, they become more keen to hearing in the case of being blind and more keen on seeing in the case of being deaf.

Kakumei · Jan 23, 2006, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

Okay, proof on the population that is playing less tombs: There is way less districts then there was at the beginning (I remember 10+ districts on game launch) and they had to reduce the number of teams to 2 because the game found it hard to six or three teams to face each other.

This may be a half-truth, though I do recall Gaile Gray (or some other Anet admin) posting here refuting logic like that--that they'd come up with a more efficient way to deal with district size and creation and such. I'll see if I can find the post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

Look at the guild ladder and you'll see the same guilds at the top. Surely if there was many people PvPing that we would be seeing new competition, right?

because every single guild in the top 10 has been there since release i no rite

We -do- see new competition. Perhaps not in the utmost top of the ranks very often, but from what I can tell (which is just guild names, mind you, I'm not personally familiar with who's a smurf and such) we see new people all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

Silence is better because you can concentrate better.

And for the record, that is pretty much the dumbest thing I have ever read.

Edit: Also for the record: MarkyX, I have nothing against you. Also, as I stated when I found you in the Comp Arena (: D) I have nothing against the idea of a random 8v8 arena. But there's honestly no legitimate reason to replace HA with one.

iggk · Jan 23, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

i stopped reading after page 2 so excuse me if I'm repeating someone.
sounds like the OP's real problem is PUG's not wanting him because he wants to avoid FOTM's or he wants to play with sub par toons based on the current meta-game and his only imagined solution is a random 8v8 in hopes of the randomness will allow him to win a higher percent of matches.

Hero's Ascent is a place where you have to think of builds containing 64 skills and a strategy of using the skills to complete an objective and this is an absolute minimum requirement to be competitive. iway is a perfect example of this, you can have some success by just bringing the correct 64 skills and have no strategy, teamwork or coordination. this is exactly what makes iway so prevalent in tombs. IWAY is not overpowered since its effectiveness hardly changes regardless of the skill of the players using it, the strategy or coordination.(IMO this makes iway a tier 3 build) some builds that may seam sub-par to less experienced players can absolutely dominate when used by skilled players using a well thought out plan and proper coordination.

back to the OP's real problem.
find a like minded guild that is willing to keep trying fresh and exciting builds or start your own guild with that thought defining your guild.

and stop thinking of HA builds 8 skills at a time, designing a 64 skill (any 64) build that has some type of theme even random (IE: ready for anything), work on a strategy to use the build to its maximum potential and make sure your group can communicate during the battle and all will be well.

myword · Jan 23, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

making Hero's Ascent random?

the only positive i can see out of that is that the mass of newbies who would otherwise be unable to get into groups will be able to play

however, making it random will make it into another newbie arena
the standard in hero's has, for a long time now, been at a low and this will kill the competition in it completely... leaving only, GvG? i don't think ANet will ever do that

and umm all the decent PUGs are usually smart enough to be in international districts now, American Districts are IWAY/newbie havens

myword · Jan 23, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

No more FOTM - How can you have builds like IWAY or ranger spikes or trapper spikes when you cannot organize everyone to perfection? It gets rid of the screwed up overpowered builds that *everyone* demands for. There is no diversity in heroes' ascent, only conformity.

overpowered? hahahhaha.... and the reason why people copy builds is that they are unable to come up with good ones themselves. they see a successful build and immediately want to copy it, however it's rarely the build but how you play it that wins for you

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

Allows players to use their own builds - Want to be a shouting warrior? A ranger with a pet? Hell, my latest creation, the sword assassin? No one will stop you at all.

ie. newbie fest. enter monk casting... ownage spells like retribution, holy wrath, symbol of wrath. enter 55hp monk to annoy everyone because you know they aren't smart enough to bring enchantment removal

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

Gets rid of rank barrier - Newbs can join in with veterans, and vice versa. No more 'rank' checking. Ranking serves no other purpose but as a badge of time and creates a barrier among the community. Now new players can join the ranks of old.

do you honestly think that 'veterans' will stick around if it became random? lol... considering how frustrating CA is already, imagine the frustration doubled with 7 other players on your team who are most probably clueless, tactically and strategically

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

Before people say "What about organization?" There is thing game mode called GvG, go there instead if you want some organized tactics. Heroes' Ascent would be a much more interesting, diverse, and most of all CHALLENGING place to be in. It will also be quick and allow players to explore other options, instead of following the basic plain vanilla template.

hahahahaha CHALLENGING hahahahaha

Talon Kalor · Jan 23, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

/signed

I have alot of experience, but i have a low rank. Its harder to get into good groups with low rank. I just dont do hoh enough to build my rank up. There is plenty of fun stuff that i like in the game, so i never worried about trying to buld my rank up. So when i do want to do hoh it just makes it harder. Thats why they should have a random area for ppl like me.

Dzan · Jan 23, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talon Kalor

/signed

I have alot of experience, but i have a low rank. Its harder to get into good groups with low rank. I just dont do hoh enough to build my rank up. There is plenty of fun stuff that i like in the game, so i never worried about trying to buld my rank up. So when i do want to do hoh it just makes it harder. Thats why they should have a random area for ppl like me.

As has been said 1000 times so far in this thread: If you can't get a PUG in what you consider to be a timely fashion, then I suggest asking your guildmates to form a team. If your guild isn't active enough, or your guildmates don't want to Tombs as much as you, might I suggest you find a guild whose goals are closer to your own. And if you don't want to join a guild, might I suggest you find a different game.

Talon Kalor · Jan 23, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

As has been said 1000 times so far in this thread: If you can't get a PUG in what you consider to be a timely fashion, then I suggest asking your guildmates to form a team. If your guild isn't active enough, or your guildmates don't want to Tombs as much as you, might I suggest you find a guild whose goals are closer to your own. And if you don't want to join a guild, might I suggest you find a different game.

I said i cant get a GOOD group. I can get a group, but i always end up with idiots or retards. Every now and then i do get a decent group. My guild is mainly pve, so alot of them dont do hoh a whole lot. I also said that i didnt do it that often either, thats why im in a pve guild. Its just hard to get a GOOD group when i do feel like playing hoh. THats why i think this is a good idea for people like me who only do hoh occasionaly and are in a pve guild.

Lun-Sei · Jan 23, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Making Tombs (let me call it like that, it's an old habit :P ) become random is awfully bad idea. One's ability to form a team VS one's luck to be in a good team? ANOTHER kind of Tombs for random 8vs8 would be good, as soon as it doesn't influence divine favour.

BUT!!

I totally agree with the part about Tombs (HoH) losing points!!!
I experienced it too.
I consider myself to be a rather good and quite experienced PvP player. And, well, I stopped doing Tombs looong time ago. Why? As it was said, it takes hours to form a barely acceptable team, and they you get owned by some iway spammer team. No fun at all.
The only players who can enjoy Tombs are those in PvP based guilds that do mostly that kind of challenge. What is left for people like me, then, who do not wish to enter a PvP guild (I'm one of those who originally bought GW for the PvE, alas!) but who would like to do some Tombs every now and then? That's why I completely cancelled the HoH from my GW options, and that's why I only stick to GvG as a guest for other guilds or to 4vs4 arena PvP with my own guild members.

So, the point of all my blahblah is: HoH really really needs a restyling. It's one of the most important things of GW yet it's the one that the minor number of players can really enjoy.

Dzan · Jan 23, 2006, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talon Kalor

Its just hard to get a GOOD group when i do feel like playing hoh. THats why i think this is a good idea for people like me who only do hoh occasionaly and are in a pve guild.

So let me get this right. You have trouble getting a good group, so the solution you advocate is making other groups worse by randomizing teams. Does that make sense to you?

Fantus · Jan 23, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

As has been said 1000 times so far in this thread: If you can't get a PUG in what you consider to be a timely fashion, then I suggest asking your guildmates to form a team. If your guild isn't active enough, or your guildmates don't want to Tombs as much as you, might I suggest you find a guild whose goals are closer to your own. And if you don't want to join a guild, might I suggest you find a different game.

While this might be a solution for those players who mainly want to do PvP in general or HA in particular, there could be a thousand reasons why changing guilds is not on option or not desireable. It's particularly a problem for players loving both PvE and PvP. Most guilds seem to be either leaning towards PvE or towards PvP but not both. Some people don't want to give up one for the other. Also, sometimes people are in guilds made of real life friends. And so on. Telling people to change guilds is like curing the symptoms while not addressing the true source of the problem. The problem is not the guilds, it's the fact that HA is quite closed to unranked people who want to do it in PUGs. Which is completely legit. HA is not meant to be another version of Guild vs Guild combat. HA is also not meant to be for hardcore PvP players only. THAT problem really needs to be addressed, IMO.

Ensign · Jan 23, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

Okay, proof on the population that is playing less tombs: There is way less districts then there was at the beginning (I remember 10+ districts on game launch)

On game launch their district spawning code was much weaker. You'd oftentimes have a dozen districts, but only 3-4 of those had anyone in them - district 1 and 2 are usually busy, and the highest numbered one with organized teams trying to avoid the traffic. The number of districts continued to increase until it was reset by a patch - the number of active districts never really changed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

and they had to reduce the number of teams to 2 because the game found it hard to six or three teams to face each other.

They never needed to reduce the number of teams on that map. It was reduced to 2 because a sizable majority of players had never gotten past that map. Even if they did they'd usually get crushed on the other 6-way. Basically the lower tiers of tombs were concentrated upon a couple of maps, and they wanted people to be able to see different maps more often and gain fame faster (the 30 minute matches on those lower tier 6-ways really hurt the mediocre teams who often wasted a lot of time just to die there), so they reduced the numbers. It was certainly good for building up fame, though it has made some of those maps rather boring.

Peace,
-CxE

Ensign · Jan 23, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Ok, I'll play the bad guy. Players who are members of PvE guilds but can't bear to leave, who don't take PvP seriously and just want to drop by now and then, who want to play their pet characters instead of fitting into a build, are not the kinds of players that make up good teams. They are players that teams often win despite, not because of, and it is absolutely rational and fair that the 'good' teams avoid randoms like the plague.

When a team of weekend warriors goes into tombs with their pet builds and minimal, if any, coordination, and gets smoked by iWay, well, that's what is *supposed* to happen. The better team with the better build won, what's wrong with that?

I'm not going to pretend that the rank system is perfectly fair, and there are some very good, unranked players out there. But, reality check time - if you're in that PvE guild and can't bear to leave, if you won't change your character to fit a team build, if you don't even spend enough time in PvP zones to make friends and contacts for organized groups, then *you probably suck.* If you can't or won't to put the time or effort into being good then why should anyone care when you're not picked for the team?

We understand that you have different priorities. I can sympathize with wanting to stick with your friends in a guild that you might even have ties to outside of Guild Wars. We know that 'real life' gets in the way and you have a job to do during the day and a family to take care of and other, more important things to worry about. We're aware that you've put a lot of time into your unique character creation and are very proud of him. I, at least, respect all of that. What *you* need to understand is that I don't care about any of that in the slightest. When I am forming a group, I am looking for players with the talent, experience, and attitude that gives us the best chance to win. If we're not on the same page, you're not getting an invite, and you're going to have to stick with a team that has the same kinds of hangups as yourself.

You might not like your peer group - hell, it's obvious that many of you don't - but if you can't make the effort to change that for yourself, why should anyone else make it for you? Tombs isn't so competitive that you need to be a great player to be successful. Indeed I know of several mediocre players who have done fine and gotten themselves into good situations simply because they were persistent and wanted to be there. You can too - if it's what you want.

Peace,
-CxE

<On the subject of making Heroes' Ascent random 8v8 - while I think it would be hilarious to watch 8 random players try and run relics, or flail to form a coherent strategy on the dais maps, I feel that would grow old quickly and we'd be left with a PvP area even more worthless than random 4v4 arena.>

JR · Jan 23, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53

To the meat of the matter as usual, Ensign.

iggk · Jan 24, 2006, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Tombs isn't so competitive that you need to be a great player to be successful. Indeed I know of several mediocre players who have done fine and gotten themselves into good situations simply because they were persistent and wanted to be there. You can too - if it's what you want.

Thats totaly me, i consider myself a mediocre player with a maxed out frinds list to overcome my shortcomings.

because of my huge friends list i seldem have to do pug's and my rank is proof. i've only been doing tombs for about 3 months and i'm allready spamming a wolf.
i have however spent a lot of time in random and team arena's where i added lots of people to my frinds list.

we have a group now of about 15 mediocre people who do HA regularly playing from a small list of mediocre yet well thought out/well practice builds. using a meciocre strategy and really great comunications. and just 2 weeks ago we held hall 5 strait.

anyways, if pve is your thing and you only plan on doing HA ocasionaly a friends list is the way to go.

Sagius Truthbarron · Jan 24, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

Look at the guild ladder and you'll see the same guilds at the top. Surely if there was many people PvPing that we would be seeing new competition, right?

This quote might be accurate before Faction was implemented, before Spirit Spam got 'nerfed', but now-a-days the ladder is constantly changing. The Valandor weren't there a month 2 months ago. Girls On Top [BoA] came into the top 20 about 1 week before the ladder got locked.

The ladder is constantly changing. It sounds like you don't look at it.

Infact, I'm pretty sure numbers 11-20 haven't been in the top 20 before this current month. Or, atleast, I've never seen any of them there.

Also, the only guilds currently on there who were also on the top 20 'Pre-Season', War Machine and ZPZG have atleast 12-1 win ratios (both over 100 games played).

Weezer_Blue · Jan 24, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20

An 8v8 random arena may be a good idea. But turning the only organized non-guild PvP into a double sized random arena is a

Hell Marauder · Jan 24, 2006, 12:38 AM // 00:38

I can never understand how adding a little randomness can hurt the level of competitiveness in HoH. What OP wants is one simple way to team up random players who don't have a team, NOT taking away the current option of forming a team on your own. If your pvp guilds are so good, then there's nothing to fear from PUG's, right? Or are you so used to same enemy build types that you fear something unpredictable showing up at your door step screwing your "perfect" battleplan?

And stop denying access to newbs in this game. They have as much right to every part of this game as veterans do. The best pvpers in the world won't save a game in which no newb is coming. And unfortunately I can only see the rank threshold going up, not coming down. Guess how many new players will come to Heros Ascent if the minimal requirement for joining is rank 9. Don't worry, if nothing changes now, that day will surely come.