Curse

nohooiam · Jan 31, 2006, 03:23 AM // 03:23

The majority of the Guild Wars community (especially on the forums) feels that IWAY has allowed "unskilled" players to achieve a high rank undeservingly and ruined the fame / rank system. This theory holds no truth.

The perception by many seems to be that IWAYers can easily achieve rank 9 and thus make the rank / fame system meaningless. But is there any reality to this comment?

First, consider that rank 9 equates to 4665 fame. Of course, it’s possible to reach this number simply by grinding a few fame per run. But I suspect those who reached rank 9 with only IWAY earned a significant number of fame from each run.

The question is then, are these rank 9 IWAYers undeserving of their rank?

Take into account the different types of maps and the objectives on each map.

An analysis into each map would reveal that an IWAY build is at a disadvantage in all but 2 maps.

1. Altar - IWAY cannot heal the ghost

2. Relic - IWAY cannot heal the relic runner

3. Priest - IWAY cannot heal the priest

4. Annihilation (Underworld / Scarred Earth) - Only in this map is IWAY on equal footing.

Take two teams equal in ability, one is IWAY, another is a balanced build. Put them in a map in which annihilation is not the objective. Wouldn’t it be logical to conclude that the IWAY team will lose in this situation?

For an IWAY team to win in this situation, they must outplay the other team, while at a disadvantage.

Thus, for the IWAY teams that earned more than one fame per run, they would have had to win consecutively on maps in which they are at a disadvantage. Wouldn’t it be logical to say that the skill and ability of the IWAY team was much greater than the teams they faced?

Teams that lose to IWAY should not be quick to jump to the conclusion that IWAY is a “cheap tactic”, but rethink their play strategy.

I believe the rants / flames against IWAY players are misguided. Admittedly, the average IWAYer has diluted the rank 6 to 7 crowd, the rank 9+ IWAYers deserve some respect in that they were able to outplay teams on maps in which they are at a disadvantage. Winning with IWAY (the way I see it) does take some skill.

Former Ruling · Jan 31, 2006, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Simple fact is though that alot of the IWAY groups Fame Farm.

That is - It is quicker to go through the "Kill everything" maps - Quit - and restart - than it is to actually try and play the later maps.

geminisaga · Jan 31, 2006, 03:37 AM // 03:37

only a good iway team and organized that can will hall.

heist23 · Jan 31, 2006, 03:39 AM // 03:39

actually, if you look at it IWAY beats balanced builds even in a Priest or Relic Run map. i have personal experience with that. IWAY players generally have 1 player that brings Sprint or some speed buff in preparation for a Relic map. Priest maps are still Annihilation-based. kill everything, and THEN go to the priest. or just send your trapper while your enemy is occupied. some people tend to ignore or not notice the "Our Resurrection Shrine is under attack!" or the fact that the Priest's health bar is going down on the Party window. i've done it before XD

some people do in fact use IWAY to gain "quick" fame so they can get into "better" IWAY groups and eventually find their way up to the top of the Rank ladder. i've heard of people who reached R3 just by using an IWAY warrior. R9 and beyond....i'm not too sure.

as for IWAY takes skill, it does take some skill. some think that out-DPSing the enemy monk isn't skill, but it is pretty tough. IWAY is a "slap together this and this and start killing" build, but it does take coordination and skill. However, the real skill is defeating IWAY.

Yogi's Pain · Jan 31, 2006, 03:52 AM // 03:52

IWAY probably requires the same about of skill as a Ranger Spike. Both are basic builds that are very well thought out and easily copied. However Ranger Spike, or any spike for that mater requires very good coordination and that is where IWAY has its biggest advantage.

You can grab any 8 players and tell them the build for IWAY and they will have success. Maybe very little success at the beginning, but only the very bad players will get zero results. They do this because the skills are easy to understand and there is no need for a strong leader to count down or call targets.

My feeling is that IWAY is very easy to play and takes very little skill to play well. The main difference between a zero rank team and a R6 team is that the R6 knows the maps better. So if they meet in a relic run the R6 will probably win >80% of the time, but on the first map, I would only say 60% or so.

As for people that will never play IWAY and insist on playing balanced pugs, good luck. A lot harder to find a good balanced pug than it is to find a competant IWAY pug.

BigTru · Jan 31, 2006, 04:25 AM // 04:25

I never really got it much either.

Are you saying that Warriors in general take no skill?
That Trappers take no skill?
That Orders necro take no skill?
That utility necroes take no skill?

I think if IWAY would have had 2 monks in the build, it would be perfectly acceptable to some. Kinda sad though.

KANE OG · Jan 31, 2006, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by geminisaga

only a good iway team and organized that can will hall.

Lady Lozza · Jan 31, 2006, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Oh dear, where to start on this one?
I agree that IWAY does take some skill, especially to get as far as HoH, and win. Well honestly lets face it, if you get to HoH you have to skill and (generally but not always) style. However I do debate the fact that it takes as much skill as a "balanced team".
Now before you decide to jump down my throat you might actually want to think for a moment.
IWAY can work with pugs, it can work without ts/vent, it can work with players who have only the vaguest idea of what they are doing. Why? IWAY is a build which allows (effectively) only a single mode of play. The mambers of the team use their skills and go at it. Period. It doesn't really matter all that much what type of team they are facing. Priority targets might change but that is where it ends. The method (regardless of the map) is still basically the same.
"Balanced teams" do not have this luxury. Their tactics strongly depend on the team they are facing. A "balanced team" might own IWAY in one round and then be owned by a balanced team in another. One small mistake can cost a "balanced team" the map. This is not completely true with IWAY. With IWAY one member can go down and the team is (generally) not worse for wear, one member of a "balanced" team going down can often spell disaster. A "balanced team" relies so much on communication and co-ordination that it truly is a TEAM effort. With IWAY it can simply be enough to do what your "position" demands of you.
The simple fact of the matter is that if you had an pug IWAY team and a pug balanced team fighting it out, and neither have access to any real form of communication, there is (almost) absolutely no doubt that IWAY would win - but of course stranger things have happened.
Oh, it does take skill to win HoH with IWAY - and I thoroughly congradulate those who do, but it does NOT take skill to win many of the map areas leading up to it.

chris_nin00 · Jan 31, 2006, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Here's what I think of IWAY.

Pick up groups lose because of one crucial thing - Coordination. Most pickup groups lack coordination. IWAY is popular because...

...it requires little to none coordination.
Steps
1. Run in and attack like all warriors do.
2. IWAY
3. Rinse and Repeat.

Lots of people use it because of a couple of things.
-It works
-It's easy

Because of the lack of uncoordinated teams, many counters to IWAY cannot be implemented. The metagame isn't going anywhere, besides the modified IWAY teams. I can't give a really good example about this one, so you can kill me on this

.

I think I've posted a longer statement somewhere else.

LifeInfusion · Jan 31, 2006, 05:12 AM // 05:12

I think it stems from the fact that most warriors are w/mo's WITHOUT enchantment removal or any form of damage other than physical (with esception of judge's insight and strength of honor). And most IWAY W/R's are those W/Mos after farming and using skill points to change secondaries.

And most teams do not bring wards & weakening skills like enfeeble or enervating charge (some of my favorite skills). Wards =IWAY dead.

*cough* <-- warden here*cough*

{IceFire} · Jan 31, 2006, 05:14 AM // 05:14

i mostly agree with OP....

Two April Mornings · Jan 31, 2006, 05:23 AM // 05:23

new IWAY with the orders and tainters doing heal party and other heal spams can really beat almost anything...although its just to farm fame

Misc Merik · Jan 31, 2006, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Wow shortly after reading this exact same thread name in TGH I come here and tada here it is again. I assume you didnt like how they reacted to your post. As far as the iway doesnt take skill noobz sux up teh halls with it debate Ive read plenty of threads on why people dont care about rank and let new people try thier best gg type stuff. Thing is this is not what I see when I go to hoh there is no room for new players with the rank system in existance. In my oppinion Iway is just making some people notice how truly stupid the rank = skill thing is when you can load up some war/r,necros,and some trappers and do just as well if not better than the beloved coined phrase "balanced groups" do after all look at MATH they do great with iway its a matter of coordination and someone having the balls to step up and be a leader instead of a mindless madhatchet u r give me orders i go kill teh things for the shiny deer soon r be mine type group you see running around. What makes people accuse it of being a noob build is the fact it is so painfully easy to put together and do just as well as groups that have spent hours on thiers granted when done right will roll an iway anyway but in terms of time it takes to put together vs success iway is the death of the bad pug teams you use to see during the reign of air spike and spirit spamming. Ive just gotten use to the pretty new form the noob pugs have taken "iway". Let the kids have thier deer while the rest of us enjoy the pvp part of HoH unless you really want the shiny deer :P.

fallot · Jan 31, 2006, 08:19 AM // 08:19

(Not trying to be a smartass). A more readable version since I liked that post....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Misc Merik

Wow, shortly after reading this exact same thread name in TGH I come here and tada here it is again. I assume you didnt like how they reacted to your post.

I've read plenty of threads on why people dont care about rank and let new people try their best. Thing is, this is not what I see when I go to HoH. There is no room for new players with the rank system in existance. In my opinion IWAY is just making some people notice how truly stupid the rank = skill thing is when you can load up some W/R, Necros,and some trappers and do just as well if not better than those beloved "balanced groups" do. After all look at MATH; they do great with IWAY. Its more a matter of coordination and someone having the balls to step up and be a leader instead of a mindless deer-farming mob.

What makes people accuse it of being a noob build is the fact that it is so painfully easy to put together and does just as well as groups that have spent hours on their builds (which when done right will roll an IWAY anyway). However, in terms of time it takes to put together vs success, IWAY is the death of the bad PUG teams you use to see during the reign of air spike and spirit spamming.

I've just gotten used to the pretty new form the noob PUGs have taken... "iway". Let the kids have thier deer while the rest of us enjoy the PvP part of HoH (unless you really want the shiny deer :P.)

SilentAssassin · Jan 31, 2006, 09:40 AM // 09:40

I understand why ppl don't like IWAY, but most of these ppl got a very nice guild wich they can play every night with.

I am in this position to, I got a great guild not to say the best and I don't need IWAY for playing tombs.

But for alot ppl IWAY is just a way to learn how tombs work, they don't have the luxury (spelling:s) that others have with a good guild. Thats why they choose for IWAY, the simple way not much coordination, don't need TS or vent, don't need a leader... those are only advantages for a PUG team.

I've been in a couple IWAY team to and I got to say it was really fun, who doesn't like to play these hak and slash games from time to time

For ppl fame farming... oh well thats their choose, I've never found rank that important.

Tricose · Jan 31, 2006, 10:23 AM // 10:23

used by order necros to keep there health up. Now the take heal party for the rest of the team. Another thing iway has going for it is the lack of nurfing. to nurf iway would mean nerfing at least 3 character classes making the game less fun all round. if nerfing ever did take place warriors necros and rangers would find there basic skills unusable for pvp and pve.

Defendpeace Necros · Jan 31, 2006, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Please, dont write things when u have no idea on what are u writing, as an EX pro IWAY-er reading this things make me laugh, first:

1. make an iway grp, go in tombs win 1 or 2 maps than repeat?? LOL that is the stupidest thing i read, who would do such a dumbass thing, its not like farming griffons LOL

2. IWAY can win and can hold halls, u just need experienced coordinated team, and must be on Vent or TS, but noone seems to do that.

anyway im not defending IWAY i dont play it anymore, i was in IWAY only guild but that is the thing of the past now. a lot of us grinded till R9 i know that is totaly noob and lame but we sure didnt did it like you described, wining 2 or 3 maps, losing and going again ROFL, it was mostly 8-9 consecutive wins.

Fantomvz · Jan 31, 2006, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Very nice and very detail analysis. Loved =)
Personally I do better with either Ranger or Nec Spiker teams.

The difficulty or the skill require in an IWAY team is not all the same, depends on the Professions I would give a rank of difficulty of 1 ~10.

1 = easiest to play,
10 = hardest to be good at.

Order (Nec) -> 10
Taint (Nec) -> 8
Tapper (R) -> 6
IWAY (War – Caller) -> 5
IWAY (War – EoE1) -> 3
IWAY (War – Sprint) -> 2
IWAY (War – Other) -> 0

An IWAY war who are balmily get into R3, which know nothing of how each map is worked, or the meaning of team work. Does not deserve their Rank, but Nec or Ranger I would argue for a different case.

SirJackassIII · Jan 31, 2006, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by nohooiam

The majority of the Guild Wars community (especially on the forums) feels that IWAY has allowed "unskilled" players to achieve a high rank undeservingly and ruined the fame / rank system. This theory holds no truth.

It actually holds some thruth. The problem with IWAY is that if there is one or even two "bad" warriors, they can still win. They can make a lot of mistakes while playing IWAY, while the other team gets punished harder for making even one mistake. So unskilled players can get Fame while their teammates are in fact the better players.

Quote:

An analysis into each map would reveal that an IWAY build is at a disadvantage in all but 2 maps.

Actually, since 90% of the teams in HA are IWAY, both teams are generally disadvantaged. IWAY vs IWAY. Winning team is the team that gets the Necros down first and for the longest time. Not much skill required to do that, since the order necro is down in HP due to saccrificing his HP, and necro armor is fairly weak against 4-5 Axe Warriors, and they recieve little to no healing.

Quote:

Take two teams equal in ability, one is IWAY, another is a balanced build. Put them in a map in which annihilation is not the objective. Wouldn’t it be logical to conclude that the IWAY team will lose in this situation?

It's actually more complictaed than that. It's not rock-paper-scissors. You have to factor in the skill of the balanced team, do they have IWAY counter? Are their monks skilled enough to keep everyone and themselves alive while a few warriors hack away at them? Does IWAY put up EoE and if so, does the balanced team get rid of it fast enough? Does the balanced team come with a lot of AoE spells which may kill the pets, triggering IWAY? Did the IWAY team have the brain to use bows first to send the pets, does the Tainted necro run Maelstrom and/or Meteor Shower to prevent them from balling up?...

Quote:

Wouldn’t it be logical to say that the skill and ability of the IWAY team was much greater than the teams they faced?

Not really...Tainted necro requires little skill, running a Warrior who's job is to spam Eviscerate and Executioner's Strike is easy. Trapping ranger? Give me a break.

Quote:

Teams that lose to IWAY should not be quick to jump to the conclusion that IWAY is a “cheap tactic”, but rethink their play strategy.

Agreed. There's just one thing I don't get when a team loses to IWAY. Why on earth did they kill their pets? No dead pets = no IWAY, no IWAY = dead IWAY team.

Quote:

I believe the rants / flames against IWAY players are misguided. Admittedly, the average IWAYer has diluted the rank 6 to 7 crowd, the rank 9+ IWAYers deserve some respect in that they were able to outplay teams on maps in which they are at a disadvantage. Winning with IWAY (the way I see it) does take some skill.

"Winning with IWAY" as in winning a match in Tombs requires no skill.
"Winning with IWAY" as in reaching/grinding to rank 9, still proves only one thing. They can run an Axe Warrior build. Sadly enough, too many people that grinded their way to rank 9 with IWAY also think they can effectively run a Monk, Ele, or any other class in Tombs. Upon that, if they grinded their way there (even with 2-3 victories per run, they were still grinding), it's also possible they know very little about team play.

However, from what I've seen, there are several ways to play IWAY, all determening their success and skill.
The average PUG in Tombs that went on screaming "Forming IWAY group, need xx, yy, and zz" learns nothing from playing IWAY. They also lack skill and team play. This team rarely wins Hall, except if they're extremely lucky.
The coordinated/modded IWAY, such as bringing in a Monk, or running "Fear Me" as well, has somewhat a better sense of what they're doing. The team has some skills that matter for the team, not just keeping themselves alive, but the Necros and monk as well. Because it's not the standard IWAY, their chance of success increases as well.
Then there is the coordinated Guild IWAY. Math is the best example. Having no skill didn't get them so far up the Guild Ladder today. Back in the days they played Tombs, they pretty much held Hall at will.

So, depending on what group you play mostly, IWAY may or may not be an indication to skill. Fact is, most groups are the average PUG IWAY group, and a lot of new players use IWAY to get rank so they can get into R6+ groups, due to PvP'ers' elitist nature of asking for Rank before anyting else. Sadly enough, they don't check how good you know your build and how you run it, which is a better indication of skill than the flashy Rank emote.

Tortoise · Jan 31, 2006, 11:57 AM // 11:57

I don't feel like posting a huge reply so here is the quick summary:

it takes a lot more skill to a beat an Iway then to play an Iway.