Curse

lg5000 · Jan 30, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

Reason I stopped picking up Ele's anywhere: Most of them have IQ's of -50 and act like idiots now that their precise AoE was nerfed.

Sounds like we have a replacement to the w/mo's..

As for eles becoming mesmers, it's taken a long time for people to realise that mesmers do more than cast distortion, hence, more and more, mesmers get invited into parties. It will be some time before the community realises that eles are still good to have on your team... although, I'll probably kill the next person who decides that firestorm is a good skill to bring with you into UW or FoW.. at the same time, the new tombs wurms are not shut down with backfire and cry of frustration!

Eles are still welcome in my groups, as mesmers would be if I wasn't the one playing a mesmer myself, although, two mesmers in the same group is good fun.

Bleidd · Jan 30, 2006, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Thanks for all the thoughts and comments thus far.

In regards to one or two responses: Fire is supposed to be the area damage line. Not the AEDOT-Ward line. You can't reasonably expect anyone to bring along a spell like Fire Storm or Searing Heat just to keep a mob off another player. The Elementalist him/herself has better ways of doing that (Wards, etc).

My point regarding Ward Against Harm is that the concept fits better with the Earth line (where every other Ward is). Not to mention the fact Water already has how many elites compared to Earth?

The Water line, as some of you have mentioned, seems to be more geared towards playing with a capable team. That (unfortunately or not) is less often the case for me, so perhaps that's why I've had no luck with it at all.

Anyways... thanks again. Good responses and thoughts here, which is what I was hoping for.

Edit - Thanks for the link to the Why Nuking Sucks thread.

Manic Smile · Jan 30, 2006, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pevil Lihatuh

heh quite so, I'm like you Mathias. I refuse to be an echo nuker, or an SS necro. I play around to find the stuff I like. I've been a ranger from the start, who are always rejected unless trappers are wanted (i will trap, just coz thats downright fun

). As I said in my first post, most people want the quick, easy, thoughtless build, and to be honest, I can't blame them, but that means people like me who want to play something effective AND fun get rejected or forced into a different build. Hence I stick to my henchies. They love me no matter what, and as much as I hate Alesia and Mhenlo's healing, they're still 20 times better than most pug players.

buy the game...wait for your friends to figure out it's fun...get your gf to play heal monk = good times

I've played necro forever...makes me sad to see how popular it is now...

Valdaran Longfoot · Jan 30, 2006, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Eles and mesmers offer builds that others can't as effectivly dupe, so their will always be a demand for them, it just may cycle out.

I had a PvE untill about a week before the factions weekend (4 20 PvE chars and I wanted a Ritualist) :'(. I also have a 20 Mesmer PvE and its is very hard to get a group. Everyone thinks your retarded as a ele and useless as a mesmer. Fire Island missions are great for Eles, but really REALLY suck for mesmers.

Necros have found a VERY usefull place in recient times. SS is making a killing, and only monks wait shorter to get into groups than a MM. I'm waiting to see Eles come back into main-stream farming and missions, and with the new classes coming out later this spring, they just might. A Ele/Rt spaming AoE and damage sprits sounds really fun...............

LordDeArnise · Jan 30, 2006, 08:49 AM // 08:49

If there is one primary class I have the most fun playing as, it is mesmer. True, they make for great shutdowners and spikers in PvP, but they have some spells that are great for PvE support. True, Chaos Storm isn't that effective now since the AI can just run from it, but even those Skeletal Berserkers and Sorrows Deep Knights are suckers for an Empathy hex, especially when combined with Necro SS and the barrage of a MM's bone fiend army. Another spell I liked using with a primary mesmer is Shatter Hex. Granted, it doesn't have the AoE it used to have, but as a support unit for a group, your melee'ers and monks will feel relieved to find their SS hex shattered and damaging the AI mobs at the same time--for once, did my primary mesmer helped keep a group going in ToA-UW.

As one who prefer using fire on elementalists, I still find a fairly good demand for pffense nukers, and found some good Earth and Air spikers in PvP battles. Searing Heat isn't that good anymore, but for a good fire ele, Rodgort's Invocation and Phoenix are good substitutes. Mind Burn is still ok, but when you have a primary ele bringing out the 'big nukes' in skills, then Elemental Attuenement is a good thing to have along with Arcane Echo. Now I don't understand why some feel that offensive Ele's in general suck just because they can't defend themselves, but I've always told people to "play to their styles".

Rangers, like mesmers, to me, are underrated. Not many people realize just how efficient a barrager or interrupter can be when facing water ele's, among others, since Maelstrom doesn't affect a ranger unless that ranger is casting a spell off the secondary class. True, many have seen how efficient trappers are, and they still are when it comes to dealing with unwary opponents, or trapper teams in high-end places. If alot more people can see just how efficient these so-called support classes are when combined with good nukers, good healers, and good tanks, then you got one kick-butt group.

Edit: Speaking of the new classes for factions, I think R/A's have wicked potentials for melee'ing in both PvP and PvE, seeing that I had the most comfort in them. Rt's have great potential too for several builds.

antialias02 · Jan 30, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordDeArnise

Rangers, like mesmers, to me, are underrated. Not many people realize just how efficient a barrager or interrupter can be when facing water ele's, among others, since Maelstrom doesn't affect a ranger unless that ranger is casting a spell off the secondary class.

I've seen a lot of calls for rangers in the PvE places I hang out at from time to time. I don't think Rangers are underrated anymore. As far as I'm concerned, the two classes that still get the shaft are Eles and Mesmers. Especially in terms of PvP, but in PvE as well. (And in PvP, if you think Rangers are underrated, you've never fallen miserably to a ranger spike).

I love playing the Mesmer. It's a class that is well and truly underrated simply because it's easier to play other classes, and so most people DO play other classes without even stopping to see what the Mesmer does and why it's so very helpful.

But there's no place for a Mesmer in a 5 man group unless he's Nuking. Which I have resorted to, with twin attunements and a full fire bar. Fast-cast cannon and a little inspiration for the win. But I digress. Until the community at large realizes or understands Mesmers and how they can be helpful, they won't be the much-wanted class that Warriors, Monks, and Necros are.

I wonder how "awesome" this game would be if everybody just got a "Spiteful Spirit" spell and be done with it - you know. THAT would be balance, for sure. ./sarcasm

Kook~NBK~ · Jan 30, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

I love playing my Mesmer! In PvE, it's easy to take out 2 enemies with just two spells - backfire on a caster & empathy on a tank - especially when coupled with shatter delusions

! But that's just the tip of the iceberg - energy stealing, interrupts, slowdowns - Mesmer's got 'em all! And yes it is damn hard to get into a group as a mesmer, more than any other class. I think the reason why is because the effects a Mesmer has aren't as noticable as a MM, for example. (Who else sees every enemy in a mob take 80 damage from an Energy surge?)

Ele's have gotten a bum rap since the AoE nerf. AND I BLAME ORION

!!! He's still using firestorm, and at the worst possible time. And if that's the example of an ele for most people, guess what most people are going to think of Ele's! When I'm playing a stance tank in the Tombs UW, I take Ward against foes for slowing things down and aftershock as a compliment to the meteor showers that the Primary Ele's cast. - Can't always use them due to the energy draining that goes on, but when they are availiable - sweetness!

LordDeArnise · Jan 30, 2006, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by antialias02

But there's no place for a Mesmer in a 5 man group unless he's Nuking. Which I have resorted to, with twin attunements and a full fire bar. Fast-cast cannon and a little inspiration for the win. But I digress. Until the community at large realizes or understands Mesmers and how they can be helpful, they won't be the much-wanted class that Warriors, Monks, and Necros are.

I wonder how "awesome" this game would be if everybody just got a "Spiteful Spirit" spell and be done with it - you know. THAT would be balance, for sure. ./sarcasm

Leave the "Spiteful Spirit" to the Curses Necro.

Not all mesmers need to have nukes, or a fast form of healing. My first mesmer build over the summer was a Me/N, and at the high-end places, which was ToA-UW and FoW at the time, and back then, when the AI wasn't as smart as they are now, a good Chaos Storm and Shatter Hex did some nice nuking, although I never felt a Curse Spell like Barbs would be very useful when hexing a foe.

Now that the AI are smarter, a mesmer has to rely on interrupts and spells like Empathy, Backfire, Blackout, etc. True, a good group can use a Mesmer with secondary Monk or Nuking abilities, but I see other potential with mesmers using other classes, since my latest mesmer build is a Me/R. Maybe Warrior for melee support and using Illusionary Weaponry, Ranger for a pet, maybe some form of self-healing, or fast-casting spirits or traps, or the aforementioned Necro curse that add damage when Barbed then hexed.

Player skills, people.

Caged Fury · Jan 30, 2006, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

I think the reason why is because the effects a Mesmer has aren't as noticable as a MM, for example. (Who else sees every enemy in a mob take 80 damage from an Energy surge?)

That's pretty true, I can relate to that. My mesmer joined afew pugs where there was always a wammo in the team who kept boasting how great he was when monsters were dropping quickly. Other party members tend to be in awe and amazement with the wammo's supa dupa whacking, and cheer them on. They didn't even know that I was helping

with Empathy doing 29 damage each time a foe attacked, Wastels Worry being spammed and doing 57 damage each time and 126 on a caster from Backfire. Plus I was interrupting all their healing. Only when I ran out of energy, players started to question the wammo's ability when the next mob wasn't falling as quickly. LOL

It would be nice if the abilities of the Mesmer were more visible. Although, it once took me a long while to explain to people that the strange speech bubble from foes were due to Cry of Frustration interrupting their actions.

Carinae · Jan 30, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Still a high demand for nukers in end-game areas like Black Hole and FoW/UW, as a fire nuker can still out damage any SS necro.

Um, no. In terms of pure damage, not only is the SS build stronger, but so is the MM build.

And as an added bonus, SS nec's get top-notch enchantment removal AND top-notch interrupts WITHOUT needing to re-allocate attribute points.

Pevil Lihatuh · Jan 30, 2006, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

buy the game...wait for your friends to figure out it's fun...get your gf to play heal monk = good times

I've played necro forever...makes me sad to see how popular it is now...

lol well you see... I bought the game. My boyfriend bought the game (haha wrong way round

) but he got bored of it. But I'm very lucky, I have some friends from another forum who I play with, and a wonderful guild that I joined before Guild Wars was out whilst playing another game

Oh on the Mesmer not being good in a 5 man group... pfft. What about if you're farming SF and there are 2 or more monks all healing each other? Yes, it can be overcome with mass damage, but with most teams that's gonna take a while. Mesmer casts Backfire on each of them whilst the team kills off their 'minions', oh look, 3 or 4 casts of "heal other" for 150+ damage and they're dead without the rest of the team even looking at the monks.

I know if I go farming with my warrior friend and 2 healer henchies, we kick anythings behind, because I'm a Ranger/Mesmer, and if I forget to bring interupts, we get seriously wiped out whenever we hit a necro or monk group . But with my friend tanking like a rock, and me interupting Animate, or Heal Other, things drop like flies

sun is in us · Jan 30, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

heh well you see, people in games are as stupid as in real life They go through phases. Right now, the phase is "omg aoe is useless".

Quoted for truth. One of my favorite Churchhill quote's "The Masses are A****. I have played a lot of MMORPG's but (Generalization Alert...do not be offended) in GW there is a huge amount of Group-Think (Mending is this....Mes can't do this...this skill sucks....Ad Naseum). It is like everyone wants to be a lemming in the worst way. Gees people, 420 (whatever) skills and you have to be like everybody else?

This is more like it:

Quote:

Water is my favourite Element just for the diversity. With my Magic, I snare the enemy, make him miss with attacks and poison him with my arrows. Then I hit him with Barrage and set Booboo (My Bear) on him. Now tell me Water Magic's Rubbish.

OoooooNoooes....he is using Water Magic and a Pet........Even a bow....GET THE THOUGHT POLICE! HAVE HIM ARRESTED NOW!

/Rant

What I find disappointing right now in Eles is some of the players lack of flexibility. When you play a monk, you are generally support.....when you play a Mes, sometimes you are a type of support, when you play a Necro, you may, just for a run or so, be a battery; a type of support.

So when some experienced people that have completed Tombs many, many, many, times, and they request a "warder".....why not try that? Why not adapt and be "support" for once? Is that too much to ask?

Let's see some rockin' Earth and Water Ele's out there show their stuff.....combined with the right secondary they can do wonders....the AOE nerf really was not a deal breaker at all, even if you plan on doing some nukes....

Would just like to see some more varied, adaptible, E players.

Ayres_Spellbinder · Jan 30, 2006, 09:44 PM // 21:44

I play a Mes/E. I've used it alot as an Echo Nuker. Ppl see a Mes and say you cannot huke because you don't have 16 in fire. To this I say bs. There's something I have that Ele's don't, it's called fast casting. Then they say I don't have enough energy to be effective, to that I say bs as well. I've gone into the Tombs with PUG's and ppl see a Mes kick some ass. I've used my Mes as a Energy Denial player as well. I've done this in PvP and ppl have forgotten how well Mesmers can work. As a few ppl have said, I'm now trying out different ward skills to use in Tombs.

Basically what I'm saying, you have to come up with newcombo's and work on them. Don't go with the main stream. Ppl have takena chance on a Mes and have been surprised what I can do with her.

Y.T. · Jan 30, 2006, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

Reason I stopped picking up Ele's anywhere: Most of them have IQ's of -50 and act like idiots now that their precise AoE was nerfed.

Like in this group the other day doing one of the Southern Shiverpeak's missions. Alot of Warriors, 2 monks, 2 eles. That used to be like..the "Hulk Smash" everywhere group. Ok, We go up to some Mesmer enemies, and they of course give every one of the close range party members a helping of speed reduce. Whats the Eles doing? Of course BOTH are casting Firestorm on the thing, so the next 10 secs or so turns into half our team limping around uselessly while the enemies are going every which way degening and killing our team.

ohh i so agree with u...
i'm playing ele myself, got 2+mil exp on her, but i hate inviting random eles in my teams, 'cos 75% of a time they dont want to think about wtf they're doing, and if some other prof can stop thinking for a while and get away with it, eles cant do it without seriously harming the whole team - not after infamous aoe nerf

f/ex i just love seeing some mindless fire ele casting firestorm on 1st mob running into traps - as a result the whole mobs pack run away, traps expire (2-3 min of setting traps are wasted), and few mobs attack casters instead of tank.... all teammembers are mad and cursing but if u think that this ele will stop and listen to the rest of the group - u're totally wrong. in some cases he/she'll say smth like "u're stupid noobs my firestorm does 15 dam" or just ignore and continue to cast it.... in groups with few nukers ist even more disappointing - in some areas mobs run away from firestorm but stay in met storm, dunno why but its tru. imagine 3 fire eles - 4 met storms casted and wasted 'cos some moron bring firestorm instead of meteor storm "'cos he's never using met storm - every1 who's using met storm is a noob, it causes exaustion, and why waste skillslot for fire attunment if he can do uberdamage with flare instead, all enchants can removed u noobs"...... when i'm monk its easy to deal with such ppl - just stop healing and dont rez, but if i're not monking - best option is just leave this unlucky group.
worst damage that bad necro can do is aggro evry mob in area with minions, but monk can run and rebirth so its more or less ok. bad mesmer cant do significant damage for the whole team, same goes for ranger, and we're not discussing tanks and monks here.

so its reasonable that nobody want to risk wasting their time on arguing with random ele and prefer to play safe with ss necro instead - and btw ss necro can do same damage or (in some areas) even bigger damage that fire nuker.

LordDeArnise · Jan 30, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pevil Lihatuh

Oh on the Mesmer not being good in a 5 man group... pfft. What about if you're farming SF and there are 2 or more monks all healing each other? Yes, it can be overcome with mass damage, but with most teams that's gonna take a while. Mesmer casts Backfire on each of them whilst the team kills off their 'minions', oh look, 3 or 4 casts of "heal other" for 150+ damage and they're dead without the rest of the team even looking at the monks.

I know if I go farming with my warrior friend and 2 healer henchies, we kick anythings behind, because I'm a Ranger/Mesmer, and if I forget to bring interupts, we get seriously wiped out whenever we hit a necro or monk group . But with my friend tanking like a rock, and me interupting Animate, or Heal Other, things drop like flies

Good for you! I remember how hard it is for mesmers to get into groups in ToA, only to find that I can really kick butt there. I think most people, especially the newer players today, have either forgotten or underestimate mesmers compared to, say, a SS Necro with Spinal Shivers to interrupt casters with each cold hit. A SS Necro like that is nice, but remember that it takes about a sec or two for a cold blast to hit a Spinal Shiver-ed caster, compared to a mesmer interrupting a caster in 1/4 of a sec.

It'll be nice to see SF and ToA groups use Mesmers more regularly again. Leave the heavy damage to nukers and the SS and MM Necros, and let the Mesmers (or Rangers) deal with the Priests of Sorrows and Dark Binders.

Tarkin · Jan 30, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Mesmers have cool skills, i dont have a mesmer, but i love to use they skill like secondary, they have lotssssssssss of good skills, like Fevered Dreams, very niceeeeeeeeee, u can put -10 deg fast in all group of foes... but no one think, just copy, past builds from others... Mantra of Resolve, Channeling, Sympathetic Visage, Shatter Hex, here we have a mesmer nuker... weak against casters strong against brute force...
Sadly people just copy and past builds... well i happy play alone, or with my guild we use very very diferent strategys and have the same or better results and if someone want to play a mesmer we make a mesmer strategy, someone want play a necro? So many builds!
Dont blame a profession...

Carinae · Jan 31, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordDeArnise

A SS Necro like that is nice, but remember that it takes about a sec or two for a cold blast to hit a Spinal Shiver-ed caster, compared to a mesmer interrupting a caster in 1/4 of a sec.

Point taken, but you can minimize that by standing right next to the target. Other methods are available also.

Spinal Shiver is highly situational, more like a supression interrupt. If you want to maintain a shutdown on a single target, this is what you want. They might get one off ocasionally, but you be able to block most of their spells for a sustained period.

However, (back OT) most SS Necros are N/Me. So they would already have access to the impulse mesmer interrupts, as well as a sustainable one.

chikorita23 · Jan 31, 2006, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathias Deathwater

Glad I could help. It just irks me that people completely dismiss water. Of course, that IS the very reason I decided to go water, because noone else would.

I'm glad I've seen people supporting Water Magic. I'm also a long-term Water Elementalist *with Bal-aura* user. I been playing GW since 2005. May. My first character = Water Elementalist. And he's still my all time favour Water Ele

!

In general Water does do lesser damage then Fire. But I do encounter certain type of enemies that are weak against cold damage, and water does wonderful damage on them.

In one of the reply here, someone mentioned Water is good for supporting your team and your "2nd" profession. This is very true! The Feast of Corruption (Curse elite) Work wonder with Water hex, and this is how me and my guild friend using in combo. (Eg. Me cast Water hex, then he cast Feast of Corruption)

Another fabulous combo = Water *snare* effect + Bal - Aura (smite) Because you snare your enemies first, then cast Bal aura on your warrior ally, this work nicely even after the update. This is how my Water Elementalist use. (15 water, 10 smite, 11 energy)

Water Maelstrom is another deadly skill in PvE! U snare ur foe, then use maelstrom, then use Water Trident prevent anyone running away. (So they stay in maelstrom range for good dmg)

At water magic of 15... or 16. Most spell still does decent damage. (Eg. Water Trident 69dmg per hit...Frozen Burst actually do 119dmg on your nearby foes... good enough in my opinion)

Of course I understand how majority people think. Often people either don't play Ele spell or have "Stereotype Impression" on how Ele = Fire Nuker. And Water = no dmg = hence no use.

In fact, in almost EVERY RPG game, Fire magic are always portrait as the most offensive spells... and Water (or Ice magic) are often portrait as supporting + freezing. So it's reasonable people like to stay in a "Fire-build" that's more "recognize!!!"

Oh I think someone mentioned Water Armors duration are bad? Well they are pretty nice... Armor of Mist duration is good, with water magic 15, you have 20 second with 41 extra armor + 33% faster running speed. (30sec recharge) Armor of Frost... okie it's a bit trickier but if u are in fire-free area, this give u another good +40armor for 36-38sec (45 sec recharge)

Bleidd · Jan 31, 2006, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by sun is in us

So when some experienced people that have completed Tombs many, many, many, times, and they request a "warder".....why not try that? Why not adapt and be "support" for once? Is that too much to ask?

Being that I am a Warder/Warden/Geomancer, I have no problems here. Apart from the minor detail I've yet to see anyone ever request such an Elementalist.

Kinda surprised this thread has gotten this far. I have to agree with whomever said a few posts ago about Rangers being underrated; they've not been underrated for a long time now, if they ever were (a topic of debate for another time). Elementalists and (still) Mesmers seem to be at the bottom of the food chain at the moment in regards to how much people seem to want them around.

Edit - Rereading some of the above posts. This thread is more about Elementalists in general, not Fire/AEDOT/AI buff vs other Ele builds. My point was I don't see a need or request for any Elementalists. Thanks again for those in this discussion.

Pro-Monk · Jan 31, 2006, 02:00 PM // 14:00

This is really more of a thread about PUGs, which are the bane of GW IMO. PUGs can be a fickled lot, swaying with the whismy of whatever professions/builds they see being spammed in the LFG chat at that particular moment (not that they really understand it). If you use PUGs exclusively, then expect your profession/build to be very popular, very unpopular, or somewhere inbetween at any given point in the game.

The PUG's at HOH and the new mission area (Tombs) take this particular maddness to the extreme. I have, upon occasion, joined PUGs calling for a specific profession/build just to see the make-up of the party. More often than not, it's clear to see that the leader had no clue of how that profession/build would work within that party. Naturally, I leave post-haste (LOL). In reality, many of the professions/builds being asked for take a certain amount of teamwork to pull off.....and how many PUGs use teamwork?

I would suggest that you spend some effort in finding a guild of those you can play with on a regular basis. I believe you'll find it time well spent and make issues such as this a thing of the past.