Curse

generik · Feb 15, 2006, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

youlosethanksforplaying

Gogetaliveyouloserwhoneverkissedagirl

Avarre · Feb 15, 2006, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

Gogetalifeyouloserwho'sneverkissedagirl

Take your trolling, poorly typed double posts elsewhere, this topic has descended far enough.

L I G H T · Feb 15, 2006, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurow

If you think its useless, dont post in it.

jesus dude, every page I see like 5 posts by you that are a half sentence, STOP STPAMMING!!!

Ken Dei · Feb 15, 2006, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tainek

Anet Designed the game with Running in mind, if i have played the game through with 5 other characters give me ONE damnned good reason why i should have to go through all the missions again, WHICH *I* WOULD NOT ENJOY. there are plenty more like me. And as far as the "it tempts first-timers to rush through the game" argument

1: They have made this choice themself, i have not forced them, nobody else has forced them.

2: The only way a firstimer could afford, say a droks run, is if they ebayed gold when they started (and this makes the argument moot, theyre already skipping large chunks of the game) , a run to droks plus a full set of droks costs 10+ platinum, just playing mission by mission, i had about this when i entered the desert!

Runners Earn theyre money, we have to spend large amounts of time (and often money) learning a run, and large amounts of time practicing so we are good enough to perform for a fee, then even more time gathering clients and performing the run, god forbid we get scammed.

We dont "farm the community" or "farm people" any more that a cleaning ladly farms the real life community, or a doctor, or firemen Heck, even Anet, its Called *providing a service*

A Few Simple Facts:

Farming keeps the prices of Runes, Rare Weapons, and especially materials down, this is a GOOD thing (tm) for player average .joe - if more of all of these are entering the market, then there is less demand, and less price

Running Does not affect anyone who chooses not to be run, if you enjoy playing the entire game and seeing everything half a dozen times, Fine, but dont force that on me, or any of the rest of us. players who get to the fire islands clueless, are very often, just not very smart, and tend to stay clueless. if you want to stop this, then suggest anet ensures ascention tests our basic abiltys as you leave pre-sear (quest, map travel here, do this do that, a 5 min short course)

TBH, i played the game through several times honestly, and on my third go, i knew all the missions like the back of my hand, this is a better advantage than any high level armour/weapon could provide, i snoozed through the whole thing

I think the title of this thread is amazingly apt, the True perversion of Guild wars are selfish people, who cannot understand that other people like different things that they do, and call foul because they dont like it/dont enjoy it

Say what you want about Farmers and Runners, we have a good effect on the game, Otherwise Anet wouldnt tolerate, or Encourage us (yes, encouragement) we sure as hell arnt going anywhere

Temptation Arguement:

1.) By providing the opportunity, you influence their decision.
2.) Drok's Runs cost about 2-3k now, I had more then that coming out of Pre-Searing. Once they HAVE Droks they can go back whenever for the armor.

Your Counter Arguement:

1.) Don't give me that "providing a service" garbage arguement, it's old, and it's wrong. You're not doing anyone in the game a service by allowing themselves to cheat themselves of a learning experience. Especially the people who have to put up with "how do I attack?" noobs in THK.

2.) Hence, runners do farm people and the community.

3.) If it's any consolation, I do believe in the sanctity of a deal. They need more fraud protection for you guys, even if you are screwing things up. I know, a weird position to have.

Farming:

I said I was a farmer: Farming has good effects as you stated. The purpose of bringing up runes/materials, was to prove the "farmers don't effect you" arguement wrong. We might be agreeing violently on that one.

A.Nets "Encouragement" of Running: They don't encourage runnng as it stands, A.Net added Snake Dance in the niave attempt to allow those people like you who completed the game to maybe jump ahead and try something new. Don't give me the crap arguement that they wanted every lazy-ass newbie to hand someone a little cash and skip the game. They didn't, and though they don't ever say it, they are more they likely sorry they didnt add some sort of stopping mechanic for that sort of thing.

I'm not intolerant of all different ways of play, just the ones that that do more bad then good. Running is a BAD thing as it stands. If the Devs make it so you can't get run to Droks till you beat the game with at least 1 character, THAT would be acceptable. That would force newbies to learn, and you wouldn't lose your way of making money.

You can play the game as you like, I can't stop you. And no one can stop me from being an avid farmer. But at least I don't pretend and ignore the bad things that can come of farming.

Mimi Miyagi · Feb 15, 2006, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vevila

Did you just skip over the two links that were specifically posted JUST FOR YOU in regards to this?

If however you only want Gaile's view on the matter, then by all means I will make sure she gets this thread sent to her inbox.

No, I did however marvel at your lack of reading comprehension skills.

Kurow · Feb 15, 2006, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Others can, because they don't farm in a way that feels like a grind, or they enjoy it. Who are you to declare others' fun dumb? If I was to say I farmed 30 ecto in a week (which is not alot by far) with a solo mesmer build, my favorite class, would that be dumb? If I was doing it to tweak a build so I could write a guide and benefit others?

Farming =! Grind, nor does Grind = Farming. You're anti-grind, whatever, but define your ire properly.

I can say I think its dumb because that is what I believe. Personally, I was raised in the United States of America, in which I was brought up to believe that I should speak for what I believe, and speak out against what I do not agree with. That is who I am to "declare others' fun dumb". Sure Im no more right than any one else in my assessment of their actions, but its my opinion. It doesnt have to be anyone elses. I am not saying that anyone is wrong, just that I dont like these things. Is there something wrong with that?

And could people please be a little more respectful? You prove no points by being a jack ass.

Vevila · Feb 15, 2006, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

No, I did however marvel at your lack of reading comprehension skills.

I myself am marvelled at your innate ability to be a complete crab, Glenn. However, I will humbly admit I had you confused with another member. Although I don't see how seeing as your username is unique, considering it's origin..

Ah well, much apologies. You know how us young folk like to rush into things

Avarre · Feb 15, 2006, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurow

I can say I think its dumb because that is what I believe. Personally, I was raised in the United States of America, in which I was brought up to believe that I should speak for what I believe, and speak out against what I do not agree with. That is who I am to "declare others' fun dumb". Sure Im no more right than any one else in my assessment of their actions, but its my opinion. It doesnt have to be anyone elses. I am not saying that anyone is wrong, just that I dont like these things. Is there something wrong with that?

And could people please be a little more respectful? You prove no points by being a jack ass.

I'd prefer to avoid this thread, it has gone way off course from the original post and turned into an opinion-spamming brawl. However, it seems you're challenging me directly?

Well, while being born in America, I've been raised in a country with one of the world's most restricted press. If anything, that shows me the whole 'free speech' thing is misunderstood by everyone to mean 'I can make random points without justification, because it's my opinion!'. It also, most certainly, does not make you correct. In any case, it also gives me the free reign to state your post was nothing more than a dying flame aimed at nearly the entire PvE community.

The original purpose of this thread was to detail the 'falling' of Guild Wars from a new-player-like innocence to a farming/running existance. Quintissentially, this statement is flawed under the assumptions that;

a) Other people share this view of farming
b) This shift is even considered a 'perversion'
c) This is a progressing problem, and not simply a state that is understood as people play through the game more
d) That this is a problem with 'Guild Wars' in particular.

While some may say that assumption C is correct, in that as time has gone on the playerbase has degenerated, this is also because of the ratio of new players to older players is shifting. This ties into the basic fact that people who have played longer will not have the new-player innocence. This is lost in ALL online games, as one begins to take the game more seriously. Thus, while the change exists, it is not a problem with Guild Wars, but the people who play all online games. This is not even a case of A-net's stance on the issue, because the real thing we're looking at is the players and their own attitudes and ideologies. Moreso, it is not really a problem either. Why is this?

The 'farming' problem which is 'dumb' is again, an opinionated assumption. Many, many people have been brought together and enjoy the closer teamwork of 'farming' in small groups in places such as SF, FoW, UW, Tombs. I've met practically everyone I know in GW through means such as these, and indirectly from such runs, others have joined the guild I'm in and hence met me.

People declare 'running' to be a problem. What is the side effect of running? From the posts, it appears to be a complain of;

a) Inexperienced people reaching high-end areas of the game.
b) People not playing through the game fully.
c) 'Abusing' the game structure.

Firstly, A is not the problem of running. Run or not, this is a problem with the players themselves, and oh so many mending paladins and conjure mesmers are everywhere, regardless of having played through the game or not. Perhaps running helps more of these cases happen, but the underlying issue is that people are learning the wrong tactics and not changing to better ones. B is nonsense. Most people who are run are on a new character, and have already experienced all of PvE, which does get quite dreary towards Maguuma. In any case, if you're so fanatic that everyone should experience all, then thats just your gain and the runnee's loss. Don't even start about 'Anet intended this' and 'Anet didn't want people to do that.' If it's there, its there, and people will use it. If Lornar's did not exist, chances are by now we'd see people paying for Dragon Lair runs to reach droknar. It's not exactly hard to get run to the desert, and through the desert missions anyway.

What other 'problems' are there? The degeneration of the player base into a money-obsessed entity? Alright, I'll grant this can be a problem to a certain kind of player. Especially when they have to group, whether in a guild or for a PuG mission. This is not the fault of Guild Wars, that is what happens in online games. The best thing you can do is stop posting (because this thread isn't going anywhere, and you know it...) and try to find a group of people that enjoy doing missions... I know I have several in my guild, and it's always peaceful and fun to go and do missions with them and other guild members taking a break from other, more 'grinding' activities.

What's my point? I don't have one, except that apparently I'm disrespectful and shouldn't be. Well meep meep, there's why. Nonsense opinions being thrown at me.

Kurow · Feb 15, 2006, 07:05 AM // 07:05

You arent being disrespectful at all, in fact I quite appreciate the fact that you keep your argument more ordered and thought out than others.

I do not know if you have anything more to argue in this thread, as I know that there is nothing left in it for me. We may even be arguing similiar points, but in this chaotic environment, it can be hard to pick out what people are truely saying.

Everything I say is my opinion, correct? Then it is my right to have this opinion, even if I may have nothing to support it. I do have support for the things I say in this thread, as I have taken part in all these things, except the 55 monk/classes, and believe that as a sentient and rational human being I can make a judgement of others actions. Really all Im saying here is that I have a right to believe that I believe. (and im only really against 55 monks and such, which I guess you can boil down to disliking the idea that they are built on, they are a marvel of human ingenuity of course, but they are too good at doing what they do,much like the atom bomb.)

Avarre · Feb 15, 2006, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurow

You arent being disrespectful at all, in fact I quite appreciate the fact that you keep your argument more ordered and thought out than others.

I do not know if you have anything more to argue in this thread, as I know that there is nothing left in it for me. We may even be arguing similiar points, but in this chaotic environment, it can be hard to pick out what people are truely saying.

Everything I say is my opinion, correct? Then it is my right to have this opinion, even if I may have nothing to support it. I do have support for the things I say in this thread, as I have taken part in all these things, except the 55 monk/classes, and believe that as a sentient and rational human being I can make a judgement of others actions. Really all Im saying here is that I have a right to believe that I believe. (and im only really against 55 monks and such, which I guess you can boil down to disliking the idea that they are built on, they are a marvel of human ingenuity of course, but they are too good at doing what they do,much like the atom bomb.)

Exactly the reason why I try to avoid this thread, everyone is declaring their views to be divine providence, even though most of them are the same. I tried to make my examination somewhat more evidenced and less 'I think this, so im right!'

The problem of the thread isn't people having opinions, it's people posting unsuppported opinions. It becomes a textual melee, like this thread. (If anyone tries to retaliate to that with 'well thats your opinion omfg rofl' I'll rip your heart out, my evidence is th last several pages of flame).

I'm incapable of complaining against 55hp monks, because when you look at their capabilities, you'll notice they only shine in a few select areas. Warriors can solo more places, the only benefit of the 55hp monk is to tank all of UW at a faster pace... and that takes a good deal of skill in any case.

Kurow · Feb 15, 2006, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Exactly the reason why I try to avoid this thread, everyone is declaring their views to be divine providence, even though most of them are the same. I tried to make my examination somewhat more evidenced and less 'I think this, so im right!'

The problem of the thread isn't people having opinions, it's people posting unsuppported opinions. It becomes a textual melee, like this thread. (If anyone tries to retaliate to that with 'well thats your opinion omfg rofl' I'll rip your heart out, my evidence is th last several pages of flame).

I'm incapable of complaining against 55hp monks, because when you look at their capabilities, you'll notice they only shine in a few select areas. Warriors can solo more places, the only benefit of the 55hp monk is to tank all of UW at a faster pace... and that takes a good deal of skill in any case.

Yeah, the founding of my opinoin is in my experience playing the game, which I suppose you will have to have faith that I have had an adequate amount. About the 55 monks, it doesnt matter so much that they can only solo a few places, so much that they can solo these high level, higher yield places much more quickly than other builds. I feel that this is unfair. We could go into and argument about whether or not its fair, but I wouldnt pursue it.

tuldor · Feb 15, 2006, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Back in march, I started GW with a W/N. Everything was surrounded with mystery (How come they have a cape and I don't, who is this Gwen girl, ...)Hanged out til lvl 7 in pre-ascalon and then went in the arena... At the time didn't know that it was a one way ticket... I discovered Ascalon city in ruins to my great despair and wanted to go back in Eden as I knew I didn't complete it. So I ventured into the wilderness, the landscape and monsters were hostile... And every new discovery was a wonder... couldn't get my eyes out of the game. Went into a guild ! What a delight, there some guy told me about the temple of the age... OMG, what is that, don't have it on my map. What ? Access to new areas over there ? First time in the UW. A massacre. First time in the FoW... A slaughter house... Soon started a new monk character as they were the exception back then... Completed Eden with him. Then I started a ranger...

Then I went into the HoH. System was quite different, I remember the time when 8 guilds fought at the same time in the UW. Got my first fame but without knowing what it was.

Seriously started HoH back in september. Got rank3... started my own guild...

Now, having finished almost everything, my pleasure is to see my guil mates progress and us having a great group !!! Even if we get bored, we still cling to the game !!!

Ah; I am also a farmer. Why ? Simple. In more than 1400 hrs of play, I have never droped a nice item. NEVER... All the nice stuf I have I bought thanks to farming... sad but true. So I get on with it, and at last I now drop black vials, perfect mods, godly weapons, things that were unthinkable when I did regular PVE... Bad luck ? yeah, maybe, I am aware of that...

Now I devote my time preapring my guild to face the new challenges of factions. emissaries have formed alliances with othe guilds, we know wich faction we will support, our chest is full of gold and our team spirit is high ! So all hail GW !!!

Avarre · Feb 15, 2006, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurow

Yeah, the founding of my opinoin is in my experience playing the game, which I suppose you will have to have faith that I have had an adequate amount. About the 55 monks, it doesnt matter so much that they can only solo a few places, so much that they can solo these high level, higher yield places much more quickly than other builds. I feel that this is unfair. We could go into and argument about whether or not its fair, but I wouldnt pursue it.

A 55hp monk cannot really solo any areas that fast. SoJ isn't exactly blitzkrieg damage (a DA 27hp nec would actually be much faster), and warriors can solo far more areas than they can.

In fact, you can 55hp any caster and solo smiteruns.

Numa Pompilius · Feb 15, 2006, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The original purpose of this thread was to detail the 'falling' of Guild Wars from a new-player-like innocence to a farming/running existance. Quintissentially, this statement is flawed under the assumptions that;

a) Other people share this view of farming
b) This shift is even considered a 'perversion'
c) This is a progressing problem, and not simply a state that is understood as people play through the game more
d) That this is a problem with 'Guild Wars' in particular.

I fail to see how the original statement is _flawed_, even given assumptions a-c (I don't think anyone has even implied assumption d).

The playerbase HAS become more experienced. There IS infinitely more farming/running than there used to be (and nobody please even pretend that only repeat players run, OK? The newbs get run to the farming grounds; if they haven't got money they get run for free or dirt cheap, and it IS easier to find a free/cheap runner than it is to find a PUG in many or even most areas). The diversity of accepted/recommended builds has decreased, especially in PvP but also in the farming areas of PvE.

Quote:

This ties into the basic fact that people who have played longer will not have the new-player innocence. This is lost in ALL online games, as one begins to take the game more seriously. Thus, while the change exists, it is not a problem with Guild Wars, but the people who play all online games.

Yes. Again, I believe this was the OP's point. He sees this as undesirable and a loss of player innocense; you see it as desirable and a result of increased average player experience. Two sides, same coin.

However.... While Anet can't realistically do anything about players becoming jaded, the loss of diversity can and is countered by rebalancing skills; rebalancing monster skills/challenges; and adding new areas/skills. Of course, this is decried as "nerfs" by those who're using the present optimal build, but upsetting the balance works to maintain diversity.

The 55 monk is a case in point. It was for a while horribly overpowered, but after the nerf it is no more (or less) powerful than many other builds. It still is, IMHO, counterintuitive and although I have one myself I wouldn't mind seeing the whole underlying mechanic changed/removed, but it's not really overpowered any more.

Avarre · Feb 15, 2006, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I fail to see how the original statement is _flawed_, even given assumptions a-c (I don't think anyone has even implied assumption d).

The first assumptions deal with the natural shift in gameplay being defined a problem. If these are false, there is no problem, and the entire thread becomes irrelevant.

D is implied in the nature of the thread... that anet should do this, guild wars is becoming that... etc. It has nothing to do with the game itself per se, more the players, or perhaps it does? Hence is the nature of D.

Tainek · Feb 15, 2006, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Dei

Temptation Arguement:

1.) By providing the opportunity, you influence their decision.
2.) Drok's Runs cost about 2-3k now, I had more then that coming out of Pre-Searing. Once they HAVE Droks they can go back whenever for the armor.

Your Counter Arguement:

1.) Don't give me that "providing a service" garbage arguement, it's old, and it's wrong. You're not doing anyone in the game a service by allowing themselves to cheat themselves of a learning experience. Especially the people who have to put up with "how do I attack?" noobs in THK.

2.) Hence, runners do farm people and the community.

3.) If it's any consolation, I do believe in the sanctity of a deal. They need more fraud protection for you guys, even if you are screwing things up. I know, a weird position to have.
.

Im sorry but the offering a temptation argument holds no water. We offer a legitimate service aimed to assist players on theyre 2-6+th character, if a newbie chooses to abuse this, that is THEYRE fault. Is it Ebays fault people buy gold?

It IS a service, its a text book definition service, if you think it is aimed at first timers , you are wrong, and if you've been following this thread pretty dammned stupid, its been said plenty of times this is NOT the case

I Will Refuse to run Anyone who has not finished the game with anouther character, yes, somebody could lie and say they have- but that is theyre choice .

Most of the time i dont even charge for a run, and when i do, its because i need to buy more skills (my main money sink) to keep my characters PVP ready. I also never charge more than 50% the going rate (500g for an elona mission+bonus, 1-1.5K for Droks) i Do it for the challange, not the money

Dont paint all runners with the same brush

@ Avarre , a Very Well thought out and insightful post, i was not aware of the lonars UW entrance, i stand corrected

I think this thread has outlived itself....

Numa Pompilius · Feb 15, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tainek

It IS a service, its a text book definition service, if you think it is aimed at first timers , you are wrong, and if you've been following this thread pretty dammned stupid, its been said plenty of times this is NOT the case

It IS a service, and yes newbs ARE run. People run for free, people run for dirt cheap, and guildies run new members to make them useful in farming & pvp.
What's truly stupid is to pretend that only repeat players get run, as you can easily determine yourself that is not the case.

Whether running is a problem or not depends on ones outlook. I feel people may run as much as they want, but they should at least be aware that they're actually cheating themselves out of content they've paid for.

For me personally the biggest annoyance is when people who've been run/twinked/powerleveled complain about lack of content.

Tainek · Feb 15, 2006, 01:06 PM // 13:06

When start a run to droknars i will ask 3 questions to the team (answer via wisper)

1: Who is the lich really?
2: Who Betrays You In The Jungle?
3: When is the Last Time You See Prince Rurik

if they can answer these i run, yes, they could ask guildies, so there is still some get through, but then the are definatly aware they are missing out. i cannot speak for all runners, but of the majority ive met (and partnered with) , most take the same stance as me.

If these people are trying to get a run and skip bits theyve never played before, then most likely they will be impatient, and rush the missions as fast as they can, and in the end, be still the same idiot at THK, except this time, you cant even tell them apart by level- so were not the cause of the problem, people who want to finish the game and get onto the next one are

funbun · Feb 15, 2006, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

It IS a service, and yes newbs ARE run. People run for free, people run for dirt cheap, and guildies run new members to make them useful in farming & pvp.
What's truly stupid is to pretend that only repeat players get run, as you can easily determine yourself that is not the case.

Whether running is a problem or not depends on ones outlook. I feel people may run as much as they want, but they should at least be aware that they're actually cheating themselves out of content they've paid for.

For me personally the biggest annoyance is when people who've been run/twinked/powerleveled complain about lack of content.

Yeah, this is true. I was playing with on guy who asked for a run to Iron Mines. I had the time so i did it. But they guy started asking me all the noob questions like "There are 2 att quests?" He had bee run and power leveled for whole time and when we did the Iron Mine mission he was completely useless in battle. He didn't understand how to use the skills or how to make a build. It was sad.

Now I realize by running him even once that I did nothing but hinder his growth as a player.

For me whenever I make a new char I pay runners and such, but I've been through the game several times. That's a difference.

Kern Wolf · Feb 15, 2006, 02:02 PM // 14:02

I think a lot of players need to do what their characters have to do when they're out on missions/quests: adapt to what may appear to be a changing environment!!!

Believe me, the innocence of the game is still there. It's there if you take the time to help newbies out on their 1st runs through the game (and believe me, there are plenty). It's there when you take the time to answer some of the questions that are constantly posed when you're in towns (i.e., "how do I go to FOW; what is "favor", etc.) You can get into some fun talks with a lot of people by simply answering what, to the experienced player, are basic questions (not to mention building a pretty good "friends" list along the way.

I have developed my own set of rules for the game: I don't "run" people from point A to point B; I don't slam people for being "newbies" (because EVERYONE was a newie at 1 point), and I don't go with groups that have problems taking new people to areas. Some of my most fun times (be it doing Hell's precipice for the 20th time, or going into FOW for quests/farming for the 20th time), have been with people trying it for the first time!! And if you're concerned about the innocence of the game being lost, believe me, when you help some do "Last Day Dawns", or "Titan Source" for their 1st time, that innocence is there when you read about how they feel when the group completes it!

As for the rest: remember, this is a game. Much like television, if something bothers you, ignore it.

I will say this, and to me, it's really funny: I went out with a farming group, that advertised itself as "very experienced; NO NEWBIES ALLOWED" (I only did it the 1 time). They went into FOW. Within 2 minutes, the entire party was dead (lol). They spent the next 5 minutes pointing fingers, and screaming obscenities at each other (it was hilarious to me). The next time, I went with a group that had 3 "newbies" (I really hate that term), and we did almost every quest in fow.
Guess which group I had fun with?