Curse

SJG · Sep 13, 2005, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Ugh, I've never seen basic probability explained so badly in my life

And there are so many assumptions flying around...

Third Quarter · Sep 13, 2005, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Canes and foci cannot increase the duration of enchants.

On the other hand, staves don't come in -1 regen, +15 energy flavours. (these are indispensible when confronted with energy denial)

Makkert · Sep 13, 2005, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Ok, I runned some tests.
the ultra recharge exists.

so you have:
4% of ultrarecharge
32% of increased recharge
64% of normal recharge

with 2 items with 20% recharge boosts

Tests > theorethical assumptions

Thunder Thyze · Sep 13, 2005, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

Ok, I runned some tests.
the ultra recharge exists.

so you have:
4% of ultrarecharge
32% of increased recharge
64% of normal recharge

with 2 items with 20% recharge boosts

Tests > theorethical assumptions

Surely "run" x "run" = ran (with a 10% chance of "I have run").....not "runned"?

Thunder the Pedant

Makkert · Sep 13, 2005, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder Thyze

Surely "run" x "run" = ran (with a 10% chance of "I have run").....not "runned"?

Thunder the Pedant

lol.

pick on the foreigner!
his spelling is a bit off!
comedy gold. But thanks for correcting me, it is good to know that I still need to work on my spelling. But funny non the less, you made me laugh

MuKen · Sep 13, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

which well known collector's item is this? where to get this?
I don't know this 'well known' item....

EDIT: nvm, found it. +12 energy, +15 energy & energyregen -1.
after 45 secs, it wears out the +15 energy bonus.
and since PvE /PvP tends to be longer then 45 secs, I think I'll pass.
Or someone must be able to give a good explanation why this item is very good.
As secondary weapon maybe? switching over when in Energy need...?

From other thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuKen

On the contrary, that +30 energy can be a lifesaver at times. Definitely not good to equip all the time, but I usually keep one weapon set with +15/-1, and one weapon set with +30/-2. Then if we're at a critical point in the battle and I'm out of energy, I can kick in a little more last second energy which can be a real lifesaver (esp if I am the monk!), then merely swap it back out when I'm done casting.

Also, this helps against energy denial because they can't take energy you don't have. So that extra 30 energy in reserve is untouchable unless they happen to drain you while you have the weapons switched in.

Ensign · Sep 13, 2005, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Wand + Focus gives 12 base energy and four inherent modifiers.
Staves give 10 base energy plus two inherent modifiers plus two upgrade modifiers.

Now the 'focus swap' slots aren't really up for debate since you need the +15/-1 mods to make those work, and those only come on the Wand/Focus combo. So it's just the primary weapon slot that we're concerned about.

A base 20/20 is there for both types, so that can be ignored. The difference, then, is between two more inherent mods, such as another 20/20, versus the two staff upgrades, say +10 defense or insightful/enchanting. There are some builds where this is up for debate but generally I don't think it's close - there's nothing you can get on a focus that's competitive with +10 defense. Sure, it's closer on some classes (Elementalists) than others (Monks), but 16% damage reduction on a soft target is a huge, reliable boost to an otherwise soft target. On top of that you have the 20% enchanting mod which can make the Wand + Focus combo look downright silly.

So, barring the occasional build that can really make use of double 20 recharge, the question shouldn't be 'is there a reason to use a staff over a wand and a focus?', but 'why should I give up my staff for a wand and focus?'. Staves, when upgraded, are just stronger.

Peace,
-CxE

zehly · Sep 13, 2005, 11:02 PM // 23:02

You see, there is this thing called "asthetics" (which, incidentally, causes people to farm). I know that *I* use a staff, because it looks prettier. And because it's cooler. And cool things are cool, so I use a staff, to be cool.

I also can get the +Armor benefit from a staff.

ElderAtronach · Sep 13, 2005, 11:51 PM // 23:51

If you're talking about statistical advantages, the only times you should ever use a staff is for either +5/+5 defense or +30/+30 health (not as good), or 20% longer enchantments. +5 energy staff heads doesn't mean jack crap in the long run.

The "best" weapon/focus combo is the prepatch +5 energy sword with a 20% longer enchant hilt and a 20/20 faster focus. Or for protection monks, Worth's holy rod and the collector's 20/20 focus for 2 separate chances of increased cast/recharge.

Also +15 energy/-1 regen should only be used as a secondary focus switch. Using it all the time is just stupid and crippling yourself over longer battles. A lot of monks don't seem to get this for some reason.

EDIT: my post is regarding monks specifically, sorry should have made that clearer.

Teufel Eldritch · Sep 13, 2005, 11:54 PM // 23:54

I use both. While it mainly depends on the stats of the weapon & focii it also depends on asthetics(as zehly so kindly pointed out) & the character I am using. My Curse Necro loves the look of her dyed purple collectors Insightful Wicked Staff of Curses, whereas my Mez loves her Pimp Cane w/Chalice. Don't piss my Mez off! If you do she will smack you upside your head with her Pimp Cane & make you her b*tch!

DarkSpirit · Feb 17, 2006, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Third Quarter

Canes and foci cannot increase the duration of enchants.

On the other hand, staves don't come in -1 regen, +15 energy flavours. (these are indispensible when confronted with energy denial)

And why does your mesmer use a fiery dragon sword?

Zodiak · Feb 17, 2006, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gomezie

Depends on your requirements really doesnt it.. For my protection monk i cant use a staff because a have a well known collectors item that increases my energy by something ridiculous like a total of 30..

All i want now is a wand that gives +5 energy and ill be away.. plus i like some of the offhand items, specially the look of the storm artifact

Where is this item and what does the collector want for it plz?

I am thinking of making a monk and would like to know. I havent used collector's much and have a hard time keeping track of them

Caged Fury · Feb 17, 2006, 02:00 PM // 14:00

For my monk, I got a Healing Ankh (Energy +12, Energy +15, Energy regen -1, Health +30) from a desert collector (Kraviec in Vulture Drifts) for 5 griffon wings.

temp · Feb 17, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54

wands and Foci for me

+32 energy =D [27 from icon {well necro anyway} 5 from rod]

like the health mods on Staves, but im an energy man myself

d=

Jetdoc · Feb 17, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Nice debate in this old thread.

Here are the basic differences between Staff and Wand/Focus modifiers, for easier comparison.

Staff Advantages over Wand/Focus

-- Can get +15 Energy without Attribute Requirement
-- Can get +10 Armor without penalty (vs. max +5 with penalty/condition with W/F)
-- Can get +30 Health always over W/F
-- Can get +20% longer enchantments

All four of those are mitigated by the HoD sword, which gives +5 energy and can have either an armor mod, a fortitutde mod, or an enchanting mod. The HoD, however, eliminates many of the advantages that Wands/Foci have over Staves below, however.

Wand/Focus Advantages over Staves

-- Can get +2 more base Energy than Staves (either conditional or Nolani Wand/HoD)
-- Can get +27 more Energy than Staves with -2 Energy Regeneration
-- Can get 40% faster skill recharge (vs. only 20% for staves)
-- Can get 40% faster casting speed (vs. only 20% for staves)

Edited for Dark's comments about the +1 Staff Wrapping.

DarkSpirit · Feb 17, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

All four of those are mitigated by the HoD sword, which gives +5 energy and can have either an armor mod, a fortitutde mod, or an enchanting mod. The HoD, however, eliminates many of the advantages that Wands/Foci have over Staves below, however.

Wand/Focus Advantages over Staves

-- Can get +2 more base Energy than Staves (either conditional or Nolani Wand/HoD)

Some wands have +5 energy but only with certain conditions (e.g. hp>50%). While the staves +15 (perfect insightful) energy is unconditional.

HoD sword gives +5 energy without a condition but unless you want to melee with it, you lose out on the wand damage. HoD swords are also expensive as you cant buy it from the NPC anymore.

Quote:

-- Can get +27 more Energy than Staves with -2 Energy Regeneration

The -2 energy regen is the penalty for that energy bonus.

Quote:

-- Can get 40% faster skill recharge (vs. only 20% for staves)
-- Can get 40% faster casting speed (vs. only 20% for staves)

Staves +20% faster cast and +20% faster recharge is not part of the staff head or staff wrapping so you can have the advantages of staves mods while having 20/20. W/F cant, as their 20% is part of their mod slot.

If you want 40% faster skill AND 40% faster casting, you will need to sacrifice any extra bonus for W/F. Also the 40% faster casting is only for some special green wands/focus combination. From collectors W/F, you can only get 40% faster skill recharge.

It is more like a combined 36% actually rather than 40%.

Quote:

-- Can get +1 to an attribute while using skills

You can get that too from a +1 attribute staff wrapping.

My rule on whether to go for a staff or a W/F combination depends on my build and selected skills on my skill bar. I determine if they would benefit much from the faster skill recharge and faster casting.

Also I determine if I need +20% extra enchant from staff if I carry enchantments and if I have skills from more than 1 skill tree on my skill bar.

W/F is more flexible as you can carry a wand that supports faster recharge on 1 skill tree while carrying a focus that supports faster recharge/casting on another skill tree. But if I am mainly using 1 skill tree on my skill bar, I would usually go for a staff, especially so if I carry an enchantment.

SirErnieMacGloop · Feb 17, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

FYI
the recharge and casting speed mods stack and work like this
assuming 20/20
60% normal cast
36% One mod kicks in (speed is 1/2)
4% both mods kick in (speed is 1/2 of 1/2 - or 1/4)

Jetdoc · Feb 17, 2006, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Also the 40% faster casting is only for some special green wands/focus combination. From collectors W/F, you can only get 40% faster skill recharge.

Many Gold wands also provide the 20% faster casting mod, just for clarity.

Very good points, DarkSpirit. All in all, both Staves and Wands/Foci have four inherent mods, so the ones you choose sacrifice some other option.

My post above gives you what combinations are not available for either Staves or Wands/Foci.

Caelus The Fallen · Feb 17, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirErnieMacGloop

FYI
the recharge and casting speed mods stack and work like this
assuming 20/20
60% normal cast
36% One mod kicks in (speed is 1/2)
4% both mods kick in (speed is 1/2 of 1/2 - or 1/4)

Actually, each has an 80% fail chance, 80% of 80% is 64% failure for both.
Then its a 36% chance of *at least* one, of which 4% represents getting both:
64% normal cast
32% One mod kicks in (speed is 1/2)
4% both mods kick in (speed is 1/2 of 1/2 - or 1/4 [also, the jury is still out on this 1/4 thing... apparently, shouldnt be hard to test though])
so you were close, but slightly too optimistic.

SaintGreg · Feb 17, 2006, 08:50 PM // 20:50

A combination I have been using for a little while now is:

low set: Flame Spitter and +45/-2 while enchanted shield
high set: Flame Spitter and focus

The 10% recharge from the flame spitter is enough for my purposes, and if I need the extra recharge I can swap up for 30%. Seems like the flame spitter is just more well-rounded than a wand since you can add +5 armor, or enchanting to it.

The only real drawback is the very low energy reservoir in the low set. If I need 12 sway it's 27 energy in the low set, and if I'm casting aegis, I need 17 sway so I use a -5 energy sword, which means the base is only 22 energy in the low set. I'm used to focus swapping alot, and this might not be as good as say a staff for the low set, and a +15/-1 focus in the high set, but it works for me. VS energy drainers the base energy doesn't matter since you will be pinned at the bottom of it anyways.

Darkspirit brings up some good points, but I disagree on the +1 attribute staff wrapping. Not only are they reasonably difficult to find 20% ones, they are also expensive. You cannot use them on a pvp character. It also means that you lose a potential enchanting or defense wrap. I think that a focus with either wand or sword provides the same potential benefits as the +1 staff wrapping, but with more options to mix and match bonuses.