Curse

Mahanaxar · Nov 21, 2005, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

The problem with this example is that they are all farmers. Quester 4 can't buy the +30 health mod because farmer 1 easily out-bids him. Quester 4 then becomes farmer 4, and the game loses another player interisted in quests.

Quester 4 can buy a +29 upgrades for 5k and everyone is happy.
Hardcore farmers have their perfect items, wich are their only objective.
Casual players can buy almost-perfect upgrades cheap, because there is always a constant huge flow of non perfect but nice weapons granted by farmers, wich usually sell them (or perfect with high req or ugly skins) really cheep to clear their storage.

mishop · Nov 21, 2005, 01:11 PM // 13:11

It can't be stopped. Every rpg has tried. Every rpg has failed. So the best thing to do is make it so farmers don't get a significant gameplay advantage. Anet has done this by making vanity items.

Like the Guiness guys say...Brilliant!

Siren Danica · Nov 21, 2005, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang

If I couldn't farm effectively I would never have been able to afford a guild hall. I had to pay over 80k to buy one at a time when HoH winners were hoarding sigils.

I'm neutral on solo farming.

But I disagree with this post that you can't accumulate wealth unless you solo farm. I have never solo farmed - I farm with a full team of henchies, or a full team of players, and accumulated enough gold to buy two full sets of 15K armor (~70K each including materials), two 1.5K sets (~8K each), green Morgriff Sceptor and Shadestone weapons (12K), a bunch of other crap, and still have well over 50K in storage.

I'm just a casual gamer, and probably have no more than 20 or 30 hours invested in farming... I do admit that a lot of my wealth came from one lucky drop, when Drago's Flat Bow dropped for me when I was with a team of henchies - that alone was worth 75K.

But I'm neutral on soloing because I think that it defeats the team aspect of the game, but at the same time, if a player is inventive enough to come up with a build and strategy that allows him/her to solo farm, then why not do it?

If A-Net was really against solo farming, they could fix that real quick by just not allowing single-person groups in certain farming areas.

I pwnd U · Nov 21, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

i am for solo farming.

i solo w/ my w/mo but not w/ my mo/w i think being able to solo the UW is a cheap and quick way to make money but it isnt sumthin any noob can do. most people that can solo the UW have taken time to learn how to do it the best. while i do think u shouldnt be able to solo it i dont think it would be fair to take it away from the people who have worked hard to solo it. ANet has already added nightmares to disenchant and now enemies run away from baths aura. really theres not much else u can do other then not only one person to enter the UW. make it a limit of 3 or sumthin like taht. but that proly wouldnt work either since they would just have to bring friends or guild mates w/ them. also any time u have enemies someone will find a way to solo them.

Valdis · Nov 21, 2005, 05:13 PM // 17:13

FOR IT!!!

Its fun and rewarding....unlike quests that can be frustrating and unrewarding.
I have spent a ton of time trying to find a group, then when you find one; sombody drops!! You then have to go back to town and spend another hour trying to find a group....when you could be FARMING
I've always been kinda a loner, so farming is perfect for me. I can be by myself and grow my fortune. On top of that I am a top buyer at rpgtraders.net, so I MUST farm to cover all the bids I make. LOL
Thats just what I do, i beat the game now I'm trying to keep myself busy by getting lucky with some UBER drops, and recirculating the money back into the economy. I have made millions in this game, but its kinda wierd that I never have over 250K in my bank.....i spend it as fast as I can get it; its my poison.

drexel1 · Nov 21, 2005, 05:26 PM // 17:26

i love solo farming uw. Still do it and will always do it until its not possible! I have played the game to much, done all quests, and everything else that is possible. Im just in it for the money as evertyhing else in the game is boring now (to me). I dont like people who say farming should be stoped completly. Its part of the game now and hopefully always will be.

I dont see the point going round doing everything honestly as that takes to much time and effort. I wanted fow armor and i wasnt going to wait 10,000 hours to collect all the shards and ecto as that, tbh is a waste of your life. I could understand if every1 in gw farmed the uw, but in comparison to the total number of people playing, hardly any1 solos uw. Maybe the economy is a bit messed up because of farming but there are plently of easier ways to solve that.

At the end of the day no where in gw or the manual does it say its ONLY a team player game, as it is not. Its a free game (not refering to £) where you can do prety much what you want, how you want and that is what makes gw good. So dont take away our ability to do what we want by ourselves.

mm00re · Nov 21, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

I am for solo farming

I always have solo farmed, I always WILL solo farm, it's not always uw but that should be MY option if I choose, not "little Johnny the puritan player" imposing their playing style on me.

*****
Here's something you should get used to seeing:

Little Johnny: why is every mod I want so expensive now?

Former solo farmer: oh dude they nerfed farmers, now those mods have become so rare hardly anyone finds them anymore, price went WAY up!

Little Johhny: DOH! perhaps I should have thought about that idea differently huh?

Former solo farmer: ignorance =FTW

*******
I don't want to get in a pug that is going to waste my time, ruin my gameplay experience and make it miserable for the whole team.

If you don't want people to solo the UW then give me henches and there won't be a problem, at least they understand how to follow calls.

I can't possibly see how it would be that hard to let you take henchies to the UW with you, upon entering the henchies would go from their lower levels to 20 and have the exact same skill set they use in the higher level areas.

AxeMe · Nov 21, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

I'm all for solo farming. Weirdly it's not all about gold for me. Instead, once you have the right build, it's an almost mindless way to relax while sitting at the computer. It's boring in a pleasant sort of a way.

There are times - especially if it's been a long day at work - when I am not at all eager to chat with people, or worry about whether a team gets along.

So, I can fire up the game and farm. And, even though it really isn't about the gold, the items and the gold are nice. So solo farming is the most fun when I need the money. I swear that there are times that I overspend just to get broke enough to make farming more fun.

Also there's the nice element of surprise - sort of like opening a gift-wrapped package - to see what drops during a run.

Icharus Dread · Nov 21, 2005, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Yep. I used to solo farm prior to the protective bond nerf. Then I switched up to soloing with protective spirit. Then the AoE nerf.

I think Anet is doing more to create imbalance with their attempts to control solo farming. They haven't figured it out yet though. Everytime they nerf something, the really bright, intelligent people that want to farm will figure out a way.

Dread

dustbunny · Nov 21, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

The only place I have a problem with solo farming is the underworld. It's ridiculous that the underworld was ever solo farmable. The rest of the areas, if you can make a build that allows you to solo farm, good for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vel Satis

I agree with solo farming but not for the top level areas like UW or FoW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHorn

I agree with solo-farming but not in UW and FoW.

Why is it NOT OK to solo UW or FoW but OK everywhere else? Why is it OK if someone can run a naked character alone all over Perdition Rock, but not in the UW?

If globs of ectoplasm dropped as rare drops like monstrous bits all over the surface world, would there still be objections to people running the UW solo?

KaPe · Nov 21, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Gee, what a surprise that 99% are for it, I wonder why?

I am against it.

Why? Because I want game to be challenging. What do I mean by challenging? That level 20 monster is like equal opponent, he should be able to provide some challenge, you should not slaughter hordes of them in few seconds. This is flaw in game difficulty in AI that it cannot deal with such things, it makes entire PvE boring, since it's so easy.
Secondly, visit SF. Look at parties. What's this? Quests? Haha, what are you doing here, everyone is here for green weapons. People don't play game anymore, they act like robots, continously visiting same area over and over in hopes of good drops. This is not what I consider playing. Henchmen you say? Yeah, FA with henchies, sure it works.
And soloing supposedly hardest areas in game is just insane. That should *never* happen. I don't care if you can't afford your FoW armor without it, anything that has 20+ opponents shouldn't be soloable.

Edit: And to say that farmers reduce prices... No, not really. Sure there are more items in market, but also more money, meaning they want *more* for those items. Another farmer can easily afford them, but someone who prefers quest - no.
That, and what's so special about those super-weapons anyway? Collector items are just as good, yet people "need" to farm to afford ridicously overpriced items.

twicky_kid · Nov 21, 2005, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by mishop

It can't be stopped. Every rpg has tried. Every rpg has failed. So the best thing to do is make it so farmers don't get a significant gameplay advantage. Anet has done this by making vanity items.

Like the Guiness guys say...Brilliant!

accually it can be stopped very easily. create minimum party sizes for mission and leaving town. no more soloing.

i still support the idea of adjusting drop rates based on teams size. more party members more drops. less member less drops. this would even out the drop rate of soloing compared to a normal full party.

making the arguement that people will quit if they can't solo is not viable. soloing was never suppose to be in the game anyways. if you quit b/c you can't solo you bought the wrong game in the first place. the prices would remain high for a while until people start running out of gold. then the prices will go into a nose dive and lvl off. w/o soloing the econemy would be much better. the econemy isn't supported by soloing. we had an econemy that was just fine before the soloing.

mm00re · Nov 21, 2005, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaPe

Edit: And to say that farmers reduce prices... No, not really. Sure there are more items in market, but also more money, meaning they want *more* for those items. Another farmer can easily afford them, but someone who prefers quest - no.
That, and what's so special about those super-weapons anyway? Collector items are just as good, yet people "need" to farm to afford ridicously overpriced items.

I seriously doubt this, half my gear are collector items, I don't do it because i want to be partied with a group and have to ctrl-click my weapon just to show the party that I have a green item that i paid a left nut for just to have bragging rights.

I give away a lot of items to guildies and friends, i don't have a large fortune, I don't need it, I just like to play this game the way that I like to.

Xue Yi Liang · Nov 21, 2005, 07:42 PM // 19:42

You will never stop people from attempting to solo farm - no matter how tough you make it (Unless you have to be in a group before you can leave town ...). It's like the "war on drugs" - do you think they'll ever get rid of all the weed in the US? Not gonna happen.

Banebow · Nov 21, 2005, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang

You will never stop people from attempting to solo farm - no matter how tough you make it

And there is no reason to. There is, however, a reason to stop giving them massive amounts of gold and rare items for doing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valdis

Its fun and rewarding....unlike quests that can be frustrating and unrewarding.

You just stated the exact problem. Farming rewards players. Quests do not, in any way that really matters after you are level 20. Why on earth would you bother with quests then, besides the fact that some people like them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

i still support the idea of adjusting drop rates based on teams size. more party members more drops. less member less drops. this would even out the drop rate of soloing compared to a normal full party.

Viola, problem solved. Solo farmers can still have their fun, and people who prefer human contact will actualy stand a chance in the economy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahanaxar

Quester 4 can buy a +29 upgrades for 5k and everyone is happy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

People will always be driven to attain the highest level of gear possible.

Penalizing a player by keeping him or her away from the max gear, just because you like to farm, is foolish. Of course a +29 health mod works just as well as the +30. Droknar's armor works just as well as obsidian armor to. The first, a player going through the game can get once they reach droknar's forge. The latter, a player doing quests. . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by drexel1

I wanted fow armor and i wasnt going to wait 10,000 hours to collect all the shards and ecto. . .

So, is the problem that the player decides not to farm, or is the problem that the game provides no means besides farming to get the item?

You will notice that most of the people against solo farming tend not to be against the fact that players enjoy it. They are against the fact that it is hugly more effective at earning gold than any other method a player may choose. Like I care if you want to spend 3 hours a day killing (insert monster name here) If you enjoy it, fine. But stop making it be the one and only way to attain things like obsidian armor.

twicky_kid · Nov 21, 2005, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

They are against the fact that it is hugly more effective at earning gold than any other method a player may choose.

i like most of your points except this one. there are much better methods of getting gold than farming. my problem with farming is the inflation that it causes. w/o that inflation it would be very easy to afford anything on this game.

Monica Angelina · Nov 21, 2005, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

accually it can be stopped very easily. create minimum party sizes for mission and leaving town. no more soloing.

i still support the idea of adjusting drop rates based on teams size. more party members more drops. less member less drops. this would even out the drop rate of soloing compared to a normal full party.

making the arguement that people will quit if they can't solo is not viable. soloing was never suppose to be in the game anyways. if you quit b/c you can't solo you bought the wrong game in the first place. the prices would remain high for a while until people start running out of gold. then the prices will go into a nose dive and lvl off. w/o soloing the econemy would be much better. the econemy isn't supported by soloing. we had an econemy that was just fine before the soloing.

Let me get this right, you want it to be okay (and reward) team farming by increasing the rate and therefore encouraging people to team farm to get better drops? How is this any different than the people that are solo farming so they improve their rate of getting better drops? At least with the existing system, everything is fair. 8 drops divided by 8 in the party and everyone get 1 drop. Has it occured to you that is a constant and changing it to anything else would only make it unfair? By varying the rate you are acutally making it unfair for solo and/or small team farmers who have to do more work than a team and get less? Last I checked, monsters are harder to kill with less people hence takes longer. How is your proposition any more fair? It merely shows your bias towards solo farming.

I can do the SF FA run with 2, 4, 5, 6 or, really, any combination of number of people and henchies, why do I prefer 5? Because it is the efficiency. The drop rate decrease is less signficant than compared to 4 but the time it takes to do it is a lot quicker... It's that simple. It's purely mathematics, probability and statistics. Complaints about solo farming is merely demonstration of envy especially when you say you don't care about those things. If not, why complain about the action of other people? I like my unique items because Ive worked hard to either farm them outright, or farmed enough gold to be able to purchase them. While it is no guarantee that it makes me a good player, the right equipment with the right role you are playing is certainly a good start (and yes, I'm well on my way to have every unique item for my characters). I'm equaly happy with a collector flame artifact as I am with The Kindlerock, it just depends on what I am playing at the moment (yes, I do also go out of my way to make sure I have all of the collector items as well, being that they are perfect, also). Being able to use either effectively is what my aim is and hopefully it makes be a better player to party up with. To think all solo farmers are anti-social is painting with a broad brush just as it is to think all people are good to team with. I can, just as I know you or anyone cal tell many horror stories there, and not over the months that I've been playing, in just this past weekend there's been so many bad examples of what not to do in a PUG.

The economy is the economy. It fluctuates based on you, I, solo farmers, PvE questers, runners, power levelers, "solo" players with henchies, scammers, dye traders, and the rest of us that don't fall into any specific pigeon hole, the entire GW community and our actions. It's vanity to think anyone one of us (or even a small subgroup) have much influence over it. The haves will always have because they go out and do something about it, the have nots, either by choice or just sitting and complaining, will not have anything because they refuse to participate (sounds like real life? perhaps it's time for some introflection). If you want something and cant afford it, that is only because you haven't done what it takes to get it. GW is most fair by enabling most any body to compete with collector items, items that cost you no gold and if you were smart about what to keep in doing which mission, you will get automatically. How much more fair can it be than it already is? Improve the drop rate for your style of play just because you prefer it that way to increase your opportunity boils down to only a hand-out, and THAT is not fair!

Monica Angelina · Nov 21, 2005, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

i like most of your points except this one. there are much better methods of getting gold than farming. my problem with farming is the inflation that it causes. w/o that inflation it would be very easy to afford anything on this game.

Wishful thinking. Supply and demand determines what an item cost. Inflation is merely a value of your money. While your gold *could* be worth more, if the demand of an item is high, you will still not be able to afford it because you are still competing with other buyers to obtain the same item that is in high demand.

Inflation in most MMORPGs are caused more by the arbitrary creation of gold per account than anything globally than what a single player can do to influence it locally.

twicky_kid · Nov 21, 2005, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monica Angelina

Wishful thinking. Supply and demand determines what an item cost. Inflation is merely a value of your money. While your gold *could* be worth more, if the demand of an item is high, you will still not be able to afford it because you are still competing with other buyers to obtain the same item that is in high demand.

Inflation in most MMORPGs are caused more by the arbitrary creation of gold per account than anything globally than what a single player can do to influence it locally.

that is true but i wouldn't be competeing with thousands of others will millions of gold.

take this for example if your supply and demand is the sole cause of items prices.

imagine the government gave every one $100 everyday. what would happen to the price of food, electricity, water, ect....?

the price would go through the roof b/c every one would be competeing for those basic nessecities. since everyone could afford them easily the price would get out of the range of the ones that could not. inflation determines cost more than supply and demand. i have an item highly in demand. i want to sell it. now take the hundreds of bids on the items that pushed the price out of reach of a casual or new player. the bids could have been at a small amount if everyone had less gold. with people having millions of gold that pushed the price way out of reach for any casual or new player to get. even though the item is in demand the inflation determined the price.

i'm not bais against farming. you might want to go back and read my post on the first page. i used to be one of the biggest farmers on the game until i saw what it did to the econemy. i am a farmer and i am supporting the drop variations. right now the drops have been reduced to such a rate that it = 1 man getting the drops of an 8 man party. now take an 8 man party in the current drop system they are getting drops = a 16 man party. where do you see that is fair?

Monica Angelina · Nov 21, 2005, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

that is true but i wouldn't be competeing with thousands of others will millions of gold.

take this for example if your supply and demand is the sole cause of items prices.

imagine the government gave every one $100 everyday. what would happen to the price of food, electricity, water, ect....?

the price would go through the roof b/c every one would be competeing for those basic nessecities. since everyone could afford them easily the price would get out of the range of the ones that could not. inflation determines cost more than supply and demand. i have an item highly in demand. i want to sell it. now take the hundreds of bids on the items that pushed the price out of reach of a casual or new player. the bids could have been at a small amount if everyone had less gold. with people having millions of gold that pushed the price way out of reach for any casual or new player to get. even though the item is in demand the inflation determined the price.

i'm not bais against farming. you might want to go back and read my post on the first page. i used to be one of the biggest farmers on the game until i saw what it did to the econemy. i am a farmer and i am supporting the drop variations. right now the drops have been reduced to such a rate that it = 1 man getting the drops of an 8 man party. now take an 8 man party in the current drop system they are getting drops = a 16 man party. where do you see that is fair?

You make the usual mistake of economic students of considering only one side of the supply and demand theory in your example (and most common misconception about farmer's lack of influence on the GW economy)...

Demand is only one side of the S&D. If you have an abudant supply, it will simply match an increased demand. Only when demand outstrip supply will the price go up. Farmers are not affecting the economy becuase they infuse both goods and gold in GW. You should thank your farmers. Any single Anet move, like the ecto, dye, and rune price reset has wy more influence over the economy than what we as players can do collectively and is more distablizing, much like government meddling in our real economy. Farming is INSIGNIFICANT. Complainers (not you) are the only people that don't see it that way out of their lack of understand of economics.

I make the same comparison that since most newbie players see warriors out in the front line holding off the mobs that they are the most damage dealing class. Anyone that's played GW long enough knows warrior really is useful for one purpose, damage absorption... Yet most warriors strut around thinking they are the biggest and baddest you-know-whats. Just because farmers strut around with nice goodies it makes them more visible (and creates envy from the have nots). For kicks, a friend and I both played monks to bring a random ragtag pug group past the Thunderkeep mission. We had 1 warrior. Just about every one asked, suggested, cajoled, begged, pleaded, and even left the group asking more tanks. My monk friend and I just laughed. We eventually assembled a group of 1 ranger, 2 necros, 3 monks and with a single tank, completed the mission in less than an hour and it was a piece of cake half way through the last part, I even walked around lighting the beacons but it was too late for the bonus. I think there were players in that PUG still in shock and state of disbelief that we even made it.

The moral of the story? Just because someone is most visible does not automatically mean they exert the most influence over anything.