Jan 29, 2006, 07:19 AM // 07:19
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#101
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Augury Rock
Guild: [PUN] rank:5948
Profession: W/Mo
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Well, thanks for the input.
Again...I'll say that I never played during the Factions weekend trial.
Also, I haven't played GW too much since school started back up. I'd have to say I got a few months in, but I've so far got Ele in SShiverpeaks and War in Crystal D.
I guess I do need to look at this stuff better =/. but those stacking skills?
2) LEAD Black Mantis Thrust
**) LEAD Desperate Strike
3) OFFHAND Wild Strike (after a LEAD)
4) OFFHAND Repeating Strikes (after an OFFHAND) oh...X times
5) DUAL Death Blossom (after an OFFHAND)
6) DUAL Nine Tail Strike (after a DUAL) hmm...also X times here!
I don't see any problems with this combo...
...About my Rigor Mortis having problems and foes with Block/Evade stances and auras??? Err, RM makes it so foe cannot block/evade any of my attacks...it's a HEX.
...Now...I will agree that Mesmers can do more damage against me, but are you saying that the +102 Damage against my enemy after this combo is like nothing and I'll get Pawned???
If you have isues with it, tell that to the Webmasters, because I grabbed all the Info from the Skills List database on this website.
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Just out of curiosity...since Expertise for the Ranger gives you -4% energy cost per point...would 12 Expertise for a 5 energy skill end up costing only 2.6 = 3 energy?
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Jan 29, 2006, 01:03 PM // 13:03
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#102
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2005
Guild: I forget. Really. I don't know.
Profession: Mo/
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I guess that combo will work. I don't like the combos so much. I'm gonna use assassin as a secondsary for my ranger. I think Shadow Arts and Wlderness survival will make for a good trapper.
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Jan 29, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49
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#103
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Northwest Ascalon
Guild: Freedom
Profession: N/R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredogol
but those stacking skills?
2) LEAD Black Mantis Thrust
**) LEAD Desperate Strike
3) OFFHAND Wild Strike (after a LEAD)
4) OFFHAND Repeating Strikes (after an OFFHAND) oh...X times
5) DUAL Death Blossom (after an OFFHAND)
6) DUAL Nine Tail Strike (after a DUAL) hmm...also X times here!
I don't see any problems with this combo...
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I don't really have a problem with the combo either, my comment was mostly about the order of skills, and the energy cost you posted. 35 in about 4 second with 102 extra damage. As I listed the combos, it is +90 for the first, and +126 for the second at 25 Energy apiece and optimally at least 10 seconds for both combos. Of course, Repeating strike would add 17 more damage and 5 Energy for each repitition. Nine Tail Strike is not X times, even by the description listed, a recharge of 12 seconds would prevent that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredogol
...About my Rigor Mortis having problems and foes with Block/Evade stances and auras??? Err, RM makes it so foe cannot block/evade any of my attacks...it's a HEX.
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Not what I meant. With a 18 second duration, a 2 second cast time and a 30 second duration, that means that it is off for 14 seconds. While it's on, you can only fear Blind, but while it's off you can fear all of the above. Nothing special there, it just sounded from your explanation that you thought it would always be on. And don't forget about hex removal. My Monk hits that every time it recharges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredogol
...Now...I will agree that Mesmers can do more damage against me, but are you saying that the +102 Damage against my enemy after this combo is like nothing and I'll get Pawned???
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If a Mesmer were to do it's worse, you wouln't be doing the +102 damage at all, but mainly what I meant is that you can expect people to be attacking you at the same time, and you have no self-heals or buffs, or escape skills, or blocks for that matter. You need to think about your survivability as well as your damage output (which is good, don't get me wrong). You may very well kill your first target before you die, but you will die, and they will likely get rezzed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredogol
If you have isues with it, tell that to the Webmasters, because I grabbed all the Info from the Skills List database on this website.
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Right. When looking through the skills I noticed it as well, and only because I played with Mobius Strike did I know that Nine T(r)ails was listed incorrectly. I have faith in the people that run this site and I know they will fix it before long. Here is a link to the proper description.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredogol
Just out of curiosity...since Expertise for the Ranger gives you -4% energy cost per point...would 12 Expertise for a 5 energy skill end up costing only 2.6 = 3 energy?
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Yes. At lvl 12 it would cost you 3 (same as at lvl 8) but at lvl 13 it only costs you 2. Expertise is great for the energy consumption of so many quick attacks! If you go primary Ranger though(for a 13 in Expertise), you lose a pip of energy, so that's a tough one. Better armor helps. You would have to go with Antidote Signet for Condition Removal. I bet with Zealous Weapons and 13 in Expertise, you would gain energy faster than you can use it.
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Jan 29, 2006, 11:52 PM // 23:52
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#104
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: La La Land
Guild: [NOVA]
Profession: A/
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Ye know, looking over the extremely bitter complaints people have leveled against the Assassin's teleportation skills, I really have just one thing to ask.
How many of you play Warrior primaries?
Seems to me that the real big complain in here is an almost purely Warrior complaint - that of having targets able to escape the Warrior before it can finish the target off. Yeah, there are plenty of other ways to abuse teleports, but having unlocked and tried out Death's Charge during the event, I can say that most of them would require a lot more forethought and work than I could give it for a weekend to end up any other way than you dead on the ground.
Warriors are the dominant class in Guild Wars. They may very well not be the best class, but they are the class which ninety-five percent of battles swing on. Guilds running three Warriors (Gale Jailors or otherwise), three Monks, an Order Necro and some form of Warr-supporting swing guy have shown up in more than one Guild battle I've seen. Think it was iQ that showed me that configuration the first time though. And despite having very little flexibility to it, that build shreds its opponents with depressing regularity for one reason and one reason only: people can't reliably escape from Warriors.
Now we have a class which, with a little bit of foresight and planning, laughs merrily at a Warrior's attempts to simply pound it down like a nail into a wall. Quite simply, you can't rely on Warriors to be the be-all and end-all of damage dealing anymore, because Assassins can play tag with them all day long and never lose. The teleporting defense stances and a single speed booster (NOT Shadow Step, the stance) are more than enough for the Assassin to evade any melee character for hours. Ignoring the Recall chain problem altogether for a moment, this permits the Assassin enough leeway to pick off targets of opportunity pretty much at will. Run in, savage the Mesmer or Monk (preferably with Shroud of Silence in place), and when a Warrior comes along to play knight in shining armor, just trip your escape skill and cackle.
People crying for nerfs to teleporting are the ones who can't stand the thought of having to work past more than brute healing for their kills. They don't realze that, at least in my non-8-man experience, Assassins typically work too far away from a Monk for convenient Monk-saves. They trade away reliable healing/protection support in order to gain their battlefield mobility. Assassins working in close alongside their other teammates, down in the trenches within easy reach of their team Monks, aren't taking advantage of being Assassins.
Factions has, in one sitting, given us both a near-perfect character for siege-style positional battles (Ritualist) and a superb character for high-speed moving battles (Assassin). In the first case, Warriors are all you need. That three-Warr, three-Monk team can run an Order battery and a defensive Spawner and be all but unassailable in the proper position. I'll bet you five bucks that this sort of team emerges within ten minutes of Factions releasing, and since it slots so nicely into already-popular tactics, we're seeing very little Ritualist complaining compared to the Assassin.
By the same token, we might see some players with superb coordination skills play the other end of the spectrum with completely new tactics. A high-mobility team whose Monks and associated supporting players are quick enough to keep up with its Assassins. This sort of team, if much harder to effectively pull off than the fort-up team, would be absolutely insane to fight, and almost Warrior-proof. That sort of team is what Recall is good for, and that's the sort of thing people are crying for nerfs for. They want the game to remain Warrior-centric. They like it when they can put on the plate mail and be the single deciding factor in a match.
Me, I can't wait to see what some of the high-speed, high mobility moving battles are gonna like like . A running two-way blitzkrieg in which the slow are left behind, impotent and crying. Good Lord, I'm shivering in delight just thinking about it.
Kanya Daggerstorm: "Take THAT, you armor-plated baboons! Your year of total dominance is OVER!"
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Jan 30, 2006, 04:33 AM // 04:33
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#105
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Pre-Searing Cadet
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Seriously, teleportation or even Recall "abuse" is such a non-issue. They're introducing a new gameplay mechanic in an expansion. The horrors.
It's going to change the way things are done, yes. People are going to have to adapt and change their strategies to include the new reality that, hey, people can warp around the map like crack-fueled monkies on rocket powered skates. There's going to be trials and errors and Recall might even *be* an essential skill for a team to have, especially for certain plans. This is good. The devs aren't standing pat and letting the metagame stagnate by repeating the same mechanics and gameplay over and over again. The picture once the expansion hits is going to be different from what it is today.
But that's the case whenever they introduce something now. I'm sure that if there were some testers around her they could tell us what it was like as the things we've come to know and love today were first implemented. How everyone went wild over minions or wards or adrenaline or primary attributes or even whole professions. If we could know what the top players were running with even just prior to release, we'd be amazed at what was considered important and what was trash. Or even what's still around that we're still using.
Remember, we're seeing a snapshot of where the sin is at right now. It's the brand new shiny toy and everyone is going to want to play with it. Plans are going to be built upon it and everyone's going to have to come up with dealing with the crazy stuff that's thrown against the wall. If it's shown to be out of whack it will be brought in line. But just because something works doesn't necessarily mean it's the end-all-be all or even a broken skill. It just means that there's something new out there and the rest of us need to get off our rear-ends and figure out how to beat it. Calling for balance changes at this point is beyond futile. And only the most self-deluded fools are going to try and predict what the professions are going to look like once the expansion comes out. Or a month after we've all had a chance to test them out.
No, there are some serious warning signs about the direction of the Assassin at this point. And a potentially broken skill isn't the tip of the ice berg. There's plenty of time to correct them, but there are more fundamental, conceptual issues that gives one pause.
First, the sin is a melee class. A class that deals out physical damage and does it up close and personal. That means it's going to be competing with the Warrior yet it has to be separate enough to have its own identity. Why play an Assassin when you could play a Warrior? The answer, beyond the neat-o uber dual wielding seems to be that a Sin will hit harder than a Warrior but be less durable. They're going to have a good damage output but poor armor, so that if they're left unchecked they can wreck havoc on the enemy but at the same time be a much more tempting target than those classes like the Ranger and Elementalist that can attack from a distance or the Warrior that's well-protected. High-risk, high-reward. To be a successful at this, the Sin is going to have to be capable of matching, even surpassing, the spike capability of a Warrior because there's no way that they'll be able to stand and slug things out the way a Warrior can. If they can't at least come close to out-damaging a Warrior then they're Elementalists, a nice class with some nice tricks that will be cool to play around with but a second option at best compared to a true damage dealer. But if they can keep up with a Warrior that means they're one of the most dangerous targets on the field yet one of the weakest in terms of defense - they'll have low armor, they're not going to be able to use a shield when dual-wielding and if you can't dual wield what's the point, and they're going to be in your teams front lines, trying to get at high value targets on the other side and therefore potentially out of range of the protection of their teammates, in short, they have all of the problems of a Warrior without the advantages. Sins are going to get mauled once teams clue into just how effective they can be, they'll either be hated out thanks to the plentiful and varried options available for anti-Warrior measures or they'll be targeted and out of the match quickly. To thrive the Assassin needs something to protect itself from instant death but superior defense is the Warrior's schtick. The solution seems to be that Sins are going to be far more mobile with teleportation and the rest which should nicely complement the spiking potential of a well-constructed build. But whether Sins will be able to stick and move well enough to be a credible threat but something more than a bloody stain on the battlefield remains to be seen. And I'm not convinced that they're completely there yet. Or, to get right down to it, that you can create a successful alternative to he Warrior archetype with enough difference to be worthwhile.
Second, and more pressing, is the entire mechanic of skill chaining with Opening, Off-hand, and Dual strikes. There's some of this to be found in the Warrior skills. The favorites of Sever and Gash, where one skill is dependant on another to be fully effective. They can be used in isolation but together the synergy makes each better. Which is all well and good, skill combinations are at the core of the strategic draw of this game. Mixing and matching and finding skills that work together is fundamental and such ready made skill chains are a good way of letting people discover it on their own. They're combos that are all but spelled out for you, you just have to slot them and you're good to go, newbs feast on such things but they'll quickly learn that there are better options. The problem is that skill slots are a limited resource. To use Sever+Gash you're devoting 2 of your 8 skills towards that strategy. That's 25% of your skill bar, for those who can't do simple arithmatic. If something screws up your skill chain, you've sunk a lot of your pre-game planning into dead slots on your skill bar, slots which could have been used on other skills that would be more flexible and effective. Assassins have it even worse because they'll need 3 slots for a chain or 37.5% of their available resources just to roll the die on their chain working. Worse, unlike Warriors that chain is not simply made up of skills that work better together it's made up of skills that *must* work together, an off-hand attack *must* follow an opening strike so if your first attack misses you're not just dealing with two skills that are weak on their own (because if they were as strong as normal skills when you put them together they'd be far too strong to be balance, skills that are designed for skill chains are generally a bit under par individually) you're dealing with a weak skill and a skill you cannot use at all. Mess up that chain and you've got two skills sitting there taking up space by design. And most worisome these skill chains are only usable by an individual Assassin. Those strike marks don't show up for anyone else. Two Warriors can use the Sever+Gash combo as well as just one, if they can coordinate which shouldn't be an issue in top-flight play, one leads off with Sever and the next hits them with Gash, the results are the same and each Warrior needs only a single slot instead of 2. Assassins won't be able to coordinate their attacks and increase their strategic flexability by spreading out their skill chains among multiple party members, each one will need to devote 3 slots for each part of the 1,2,3 punch. That it seems an entire profession is being built around such a begining level mechanic is troublesome but the fact that it's not going to do anything for strategic interdependance in a team setting is downright scary. At high level play, this is a team game but it seems like Assassins are being built for 1v1 fighting.
There's more, but that's enough for now. But those are tracks that are going to be more rewarding at this juncture. The point is that rather than crying nerf or buff for each and every skill that's not going to live for month yet the thing to do is focus on the conceptual, on the basic underpinings of the class. Are their skill lines looking robust, do their mechanics make sense, is the foundation solid? Those are the questions to ask. Skill balance doesn't mean jack squat if the class is fundamentally broken to begin with but once the base is solid the work of making sure nothing is too over or underpowered can proceed.
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Jan 30, 2006, 05:10 AM // 05:10
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#106
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Just Plain Fluffy
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Guild: Idiot Savants
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You people are playing a very different game than I am if you think that Assassins are going to have any effect upon Warriors whatsoever.
Peace,
-CxE
__________________
Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience.
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Jan 30, 2006, 07:13 AM // 07:13
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#107
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: La La Land
Guild: [NOVA]
Profession: A/
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Populi makes a lot of good points. And Ensign is deluding himself if he figures a brand-new melee class with a mechanic built almost exclusively into it alone which has people worried about breaking the game isn’t going to affect Warriors in some way :-P
Anyways. I’ve been noticing a lot of things along the same lines as Populi’s observations. Assassins (or at least Dagger Mastery) don’t mesh very well with any secondary profession, and most of the hardest-hitting skill streams aren’t very stackable. It seems like the Assassins don’t really play well with others (would say duh, but this is GW. Logic doesn’t apply here XP). Or do they? Ignoring what the Assassin is or is not good at for now, let’s look at why people are saying they’re uselessly pale imitations of Warriors when chosen as a primary, and indirectly why people are still begging for Anet to nerf them.
Despite having really, really lousy options for increased movement speed stuff (Shadow Step is both annoying and dangerous to use, Dash lasts for a whopping three seconds, Siphon Speed is a Hex and thus takes time to use), Assassins are almost universally accepted as the new high-mobility class in Guild Wars. This is because Assassins are masters of teleportation, which was previously available in GW, if not previously yelled at. The Assassin can teleport to any target within its range (Death’s Charge {enemies}, Return {Allies, probably including pets}, Spirit Walk {Spirits}) and can also defend itself using random teleports (Viper’s Defense, Heart of Shadows). The Assassin can also set a delayed teleport which allows it to set up teleport nets which can move an entire 8-man team to a location in mere seconds (Recall). Assassins also have trick teleports (Shadow Step, Aura of Displacement) which permit it to fake out enemies before flickering away. And all of this is either in Shadow Arts or Assassin General, meaning that any primary can make full use of the Assassin’s mastery of teleportation.
The drawback to all this is really very simple. Since Assassins get around via teleportation for the most part, there isn’t another character type which can really keep up with them. Sprinting Warriors, Storm Chasing Rangers, Windborne Els, none of them can match a teleporting Assassin’s mobility. Thus, the Assassin is typically forced to operate virtually alone, poofing in to try and do its work before it’s forced to poof out again in order to save its own hide. The exception, of course, being Recall, the problem brought up in the original post. However, for the most part, Assassins poof too much to be really efficient team players. Given that an Assassin alone can’t kill very well, this is Bad. This is why Assassin primaries are generally considered underpowered whilst Assassin teleports are screeched at as broken.
The solution, of course, is multiple poofers. A pair of Assassins working as a detached element, calling poof-targets, could easily be absolutely devastating. What Populi failed to take into account with his criticism of Assassin skills being unable to stack, thus allowing multiple Assassins to carry a long skill stream between them, is that Assassins aren’t meant to stick in one place long enough to get off a long stream regardless of how many Assassins are carrying the stream. Instead, they’re meant to come in and smash a target as quickly as possible. And simply because two Assassins can’t carry a single skill stream does not mean that they can’t combine the effects of two different skill streams. For instance, an Assassin which begins its Unsuspecting Strike/Temple Strike/Death Blossom stream as its partner is Hexing the foe for its own BMT/Jungle Strike/Twisting Fangs stream is supporting its partner in the only way that really matters in the end – slicing off HP like a mad surgeon with a brand new liposuction kit. That sort of combined strike is almost guaranteed to fell its target. Just like a Cleave axeman naturally compliments an Eviscerate axeman, two Assassins using entirely different skill streams compliment each other by bringing useful effects that can’t be used together in a single character.
What’s more, this sort of thing, carried to extremes, could apply to an entire 8-man team, as I’ve stated before. Let’s say that your team consists of four Assassin primaries, three Mo/A, and, say, an Order-based N/A. The four primaries, which carry the biggest punch due to Rune-boosted Dagger Masteries and their Critical Hits attribute, split into two two-man elements for scything through squishies, while the Monks and Necromancer use their own teleports to keep up with the primary strikers. This is of course off the top of my head, but such a Guild, designed to stick and move in a single mass wave, would run rings around many of the more traditional types. IT would also allow the Guild superb defensive abilities, as pretty much every character would be able to scatter under pressure. Viper’s Defense > physical spikes of any type, and the odd holdout spell spiker can either he Heart of Shadows-ed while the attacking elements cut down the spikers or just suffered through during the above. The point is that this sort of ultramobile build would only work with Assassin primaries instead of Warriors, who need the slugfest in order to build up adrenaline.
As I stated in my above post, the Assassin is the current epitome of hit and run, striking and fading before any Warrior can catch up to them. This lack of offense thing people are talking about just needs a bit of creativity to fix, and as for builds like the above, which can just fade out from under attacks en masse, well…I can’t wait to fight one and find out how to take it down XP. I’ve already got plenty of ideas for it. Do you?
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Jan 30, 2006, 08:40 AM // 08:40
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#108
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Frost Gate Guardian
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First off, I put one of the tele skills on the guildlord, so it did work on npc's, although I wouldn't be too surprised if it changed by release.
Secondly, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a new nature rit that killed tele.
Third, many of you don't seem to have any idea how the tele skills work, and some of you seem to think removing the chant solves the problem. It MIGHT stop the spike, depending on which tele was used, but you're making an enormous assumption that you can stop the spike in time. As long as they get a kill, they should be more than happy to go back and start all over.
Think of a ranger or air spike group with tele. Just how much time do you think they need? Add in a bonder, and they could not only maintain a higher percentage of fighting toons, but would need very little healing unless you could get to them and maintain constant pressure.
Finaly, it seems clear that the best way to counter tele, assuming there isn't a specific counter coming, is to do exactly that: maintain constant pressure.
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Jan 30, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07
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#109
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Desert Nomad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
Populi makes a lot of good points. And Ensign is deluding himself if he figures a brand-new melee class with a mechanic built almost exclusively into it alone which has people worried about breaking the game isn’t going to affect Warriors in some way :-P
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Many of the skills are impractical and weak in hitting power by comparison to similar warrior skills. I would be more worried about an adrenalin charged warrior that teleports to a target than a assasin that must land a 3 hit combo to do any real damage. The other tricks the assasin posesses can be mimiced and argueably executed better by other profession combinations. Of course you can just ignore the whole teleport buisness and just fill people full of arrows as well though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
Despite having really, really lousy options for increased movement speed stuff (Shadow Step is both annoying and dangerous to use, Dash lasts for a whopping three seconds, Siphon Speed is a Hex and thus takes time to use), Assassins are almost universally accepted as the new high-mobility class in Guild Wars.
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The first option is to apply a snare then teleport to the target. The second option is to teleport to the target then apply the snare. Otherwise, just use a run speed boost from a secondary profession. You do not need to use dash or shadow step in a assasin build. Shadow step is gimmicy at best in a kind of a lure/harassment tactic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
The drawback to all this is really very simple. Since Assassins get around via teleportation for the most part, there isn’t another character type which can really keep up with them. Sprinting Warriors, Storm Chasing Rangers, Windborne Els, none of them can match a teleporting Assassin’s mobility. Thus, the Assassin is typically forced to operate virtually alone, poofing in to try and do its work before it’s forced to poof out again in order to save its own hide.
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They must have a target to teleport to, unless its a passive option. In which case the user has no choice in destination and not all potential destinations are better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
The solution, of course, is multiple poofers. A pair of Assassins working as a detached element, calling poof-targets, could easily be absolutely devastating. What Populi failed to take into account with his criticism of Assassin skills being unable to stack, thus allowing multiple Assassins to carry a long skill stream between them, is that Assassins aren’t meant to stick in one place long enough to get off a long stream regardless of how many Assassins are carrying the stream. Instead, they’re meant to come in and smash a target as quickly as possible. And simply because two Assassins can’t carry a single skill stream does not mean that they can’t combine the effects of two different skill streams. For instance, an Assassin which begins its Unsuspecting Strike/Temple Strike/Death Blossom stream as its partner is Hexing the foe for its own BMT/Jungle Strike/Twisting Fangs stream is supporting its partner in the only way that really matters in the end – slicing off HP like a mad surgeon with a brand new liposuction kit. That sort of combined strike is almost guaranteed to fell its target.
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A ranger spike or gale lock is so much easier to pull off on much sturdier characters.
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Jan 30, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04
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#110
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: La La Land
Guild: [NOVA]
Profession: A/
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Point being, Phades, that unlike Warriors, which typically need to sit around and smack something for twenty, thirty seconds to build up their killing attacks, a single pair of Assassins can pull off their killing strikes the instant they're in range of the target. Gale Warriors still need to charge their attacks, and with many counters in the game for both taking damage and adrenaline buildup, that's not always a reliable choice. Ranger Spike is closer, but the Ranger spike guilds I've seen tend to use a ludicrous number of Rangers to do what just two, or at the maximum end three, Assassins could do.
I can see what you guys are saying - a fully adrenalized Warrior can indeed match the amage output of an Assassin, but first off, that damage takes time to build while an Assassin's strike only needs the Energy to pull it off. Which, by the way, most W/A would be unable to use with their pithy energy pool, throwing out the forthcoming argument that W/A is more effective than Assassin primary could ever be.
On another note, all these damage calculations you're all throwing out are based on nothing but brute weapon/skill damage totals. This is ignoring altogether the fact that the average Assassin is going to have half again the default critical hit ratio of any other character class, not to mention a significant chance of a lovely Double Strike, further bolstering DPS. Double Strike is available to Warrior primaries, but Dagger Mastery isn't something a Warrior energy pool can really take advantage of. And with bolstering skills such as Critical Eye and Locust's Fury, these hidden percentages can be jacked up even more. And since both are Critical Hits skills, only Assassins can really abuse them. And these are just passive bonuses. Taking a look at what an Assassin can land with just the standard Hex/BMT/Jungle Strike/Twisting Fangs combo, I really don't see how any Warrior is going to be able to come close to matching an Assassin's burst damage. DPS, sure, the Warrior can win a drawn-out slugfest, but that's not what Assassins are built for.
Personally, I figure Anet's going to boost the power of most Assassin dagger attacks while, possibly, reducing teleportation's efficiency somehow, but both would be minor adjustments. I simply don't see any Assassin worth his daggers being such a detriment to his team that replacement with a Warrior is the only solution. And there's one piece of indisputable logic I can throw at you that would shut down this argument for good:
Anet would not introduce a class into the game in which use of said class as a primary attribute would gain a player no true benefits over another class. Given their own extensive playtesting I do believe that they would have caught it if, somehow, the Assassin were unusable next to the Warrior. And given the many, many...many...threads from all sorts of players stating that Assassins are just that, I really would expect damage buffs before the release of Factions. Possibly even improvements to the teleportation skills. After all, if Warriors are just so gee-golly darned dangerous that no Assassin, or two or three, could possibly stand against them, then something needs to be done, no?
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Jan 30, 2006, 05:11 PM // 17:11
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#111
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Aug 2005
Guild: Servants of Fortuna
Profession: E/Me
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
Point being, Phades, that unlike Warriors, which typically need to sit around and smack something for twenty, thirty seconds to build up their killing attacks
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Or seven. (about)
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I can see what you guys are saying - a fully adrenalized Warrior can indeed match the amage output of an Assassin, but first off, that damage takes time to build while an Assassin's strike only needs the Energy to pull it off. Which, by the way, most W/A would be unable to use with their pithy energy pool, throwing out the forthcoming argument that W/A is more effective than Assassin primary could ever be.
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Yes, the assassin needs energy. Which means it does its big huge damage combo, probably misses with half of them because any team that's any good already cast blocking spells, then runs away to recharge for a while because if it stays on that side of the field it's going to get slaughtered due to the low armor.
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DPS, sure, the Warrior can win a drawn-out slugfest, but that's not what Assassins are built for.
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Bingo, the assassins we saw in the preview weekend weren't damage, they were yet another spiking character.
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Jan 30, 2006, 06:10 PM // 18:10
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#112
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: west yorkshire, Uk
Guild: Sisters of Serenity
Profession: N/Mo
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well, the only thing i hate about assassin is ther damn silly run.....
'mam, are you running to me or trying to shoulder-ram me into the wall?'
i hope they fix that befor release, cause i cant watch her run outside of towns without getting cross-eyed wondering if shes listing to the left or going in a streight line....>.< *headaches after the weekend was over*
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Jan 30, 2006, 07:08 PM // 19:08
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#113
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Sep 2005
Guild: Radicals Against Tyrants
Profession: W/
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The elementist has a lot of firepower too (some combos can reach 150+ damage) and I don't see anyone complaining that THEIR overpowered.
Wait a minuite Assassins have the SAME AI lvl of elementists.
Could THIS have something to do with their high damage.
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Jan 30, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31
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#114
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Sep 2005
Guild: Storm Bearers[SB]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light
The elementist has a lot of firepower too (some combos can reach 150+ damage) and I don't see anyone complaining that THEIR overpowered.
Wait a minuite Assassins have the SAME AL of elementists.
Could THIS have something to do with their high damage.
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Orb+Mind Shock=~250 dmg IIRC. Eles have 60 armor. Assassins have 85 if they are attacking.
Show me an ele combo that kills someone in 8 seconds, prevents casting and can be repeated every 12 seconds with no energy problems. Because that's what As can do atm.
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Jan 30, 2006, 09:52 PM // 21:52
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#115
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Desert Nomad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
Point being, Phades, that unlike Warriors, which typically need to sit around and smack something for twenty, thirty seconds to build up their killing attacks,
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Actually it can be as low as 3s for the warrior, if you figure in things like dark fury and IAS skills. Also the warrior applies more pressure in addition to being a harder target to fell opposed to the assasin and does not have to give away the target of the spike by changing targets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
a single pair of Assassins can pull off their killing strikes the instant they're in range of the target. Gale Warriors still need to charge their attacks, and with many counters in the game for both taking damage and adrenaline buildup, that's not always a reliable choice. Ranger Spike is closer, but the Ranger spike guilds I've seen tend to use a ludicrous number of Rangers to do what just two, or at the maximum end three, Assassins could do.
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A single pair of assasins do less damage than a pair of warriors. They also have to hit every attack in the chain instead of waiting for the right moment to drop the adrenalin. This means there is time to react to the presence of the assasin teleporting forward since the most dangerous attack in their skil lists is not delivered on the first blow. This is the single and most important thing you are overlooking here. No one cares at the number of rangers if what they shot is already dead on the ground and they are already spiking the next target.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
I can see what you guys are saying - a fully adrenalized Warrior can indeed match the amage output of an Assassin, but first off, that damage takes time to build while an Assassin's strike only needs the Energy to pull it off.
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Warriors have more damage output than assasins. Their weapon damage base is higher and the bonus damage on every attack is higher. Warriors also get auto penetration on the damage dealing attack skills, while assasins randomly crit on any attack which warriors do as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
On another note, all these damage calculations you're all throwing out are based on nothing but brute weapon/skill damage totals. This is ignoring altogether the fact that the average Assassin is going to have half again the default critical hit ratio of any other character class, not to mention a significant chance of a lovely Double Strike, further bolstering DPS. Double Strike is available to Warrior primaries, but Dagger Mastery isn't something a Warrior energy pool can really take advantage of.
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Its not something the assassin energy pool can reliably take advantage of either. A ranger using assasin skills is another topic entirely though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
And with bolstering skills such as Critical Eye and Locust's Fury, these hidden percentages can be jacked up even more. And since both are Critical Hits skills, only Assassins can really abuse them.
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It would appear that these percents are treated independantly from using an assasin over the preveiw event, similar to stacking block/evade or miss chances. It is not as straight forward or as good as it seems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
And these are just passive bonuses. Taking a look at what an Assassin can land with just the standard Hex/BMT/Jungle Strike/Twisting Fangs combo, I really don't see how any Warrior is going to be able to come close to matching an Assassin's burst damage.
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Actually warriors do more if you actually look at the bonus damage from the skills and combine them with the higher base damage of the weapons and the innate penetration on every attack skill. Simply stated, a wand user beats a dagger user with no skills involved. The assasin must use skills in order to be effective at all, while warriors do fairly well just on auto attack. See here http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=113319
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
Anet would not introduce a class into the game in which use of said class as a primary attribute would gain a player no true benefits over another class.
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Play an elementalist lately using elementalist skills exclusivly?
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Jan 31, 2006, 12:11 AM // 00:11
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#116
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Aug 2005
Profession: Mo/
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no one threatens...
Spirit Walk
Spell. Shadow Step to target spirit.
I bet spell limits it to within your character radius... but still a spirit could be on the ground main floor and you might be on the 2nd set of stairs... a hoh map configuration... just an example... a total pain in the butt type of situation; well guess what? you can use your allies spirits or your foes spirits.. now that will threaten homeland security...
Oh man once I can use it again I wanna make some crazy videos WHY CANT Isle of the Namless be up to 8 party members!
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Jan 31, 2006, 01:56 AM // 01:56
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#117
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Banned
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: dayton ohio
Profession: N/Mo
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assassins are gonna be close to as bad as elementalists. soon after people start to really use assassins, you will see less and less attack skill chains used, people will be having enough of only using 1 or 2 of them before they miss and the other 2-3 in the chain are made useless, not to mention the FotM SS/insidious/empathy necros/mesmers to shut them down harder then they would on warriors
the solution is seeing more assassin take advantage of their critical strike attribute using warrior or ranger weapons/skills, or their shadow arts using the massive condition heavy skills in CA/TA to really mess up people unprepared
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Jan 31, 2006, 02:36 AM // 02:36
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#118
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Elite Guru
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Just a Box in a Cage
Guild: Hurry Up The Cakes [Oven]
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Assassins will probably make great flag runners, also. But even that is counterable. Skills like Return and Aura of Displacement are enchantments, and so you can remove them with one of a billion skills and watch them teleport somewhere they would rather not have (perhaps doubling their travel time).
__________________
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Jan 31, 2006, 04:15 AM // 04:15
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#119
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: La La Land
Guild: [NOVA]
Profession: A/
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You people sound like you like the fact that nothing happens in this game withot a Warrior's involvement. Am I alone in loathing Warriors (and Monks to a lesser extent) with a passion for stealing this game from four - and soon to be six - other classes?
You all make such a huge deal abot game balancing. Well, how balanced is it when the only time a specific character type is useable is in either PvE or a very specialized team designed with the goal in mind of breaking the norms? People who want the most effective teams se Warrior-centric strategies, period. I don't know abot you dudes, but I am more than ready to see a change in that. As opposed to, say, just consigning Assassins to the realms of Unnatural Signet and continuing to play my Rangers and Elementalists and several others on the sufferance of the Warriors.
So how about we tell Anet just how to fix these things as opposed to somply telling everyone to never use them, so that Guilds can be more than just "who's bringing the axes and who's bringing the Prot staffs today?"
If I'm being snide, I'm very sorry, but I really can;t help myself when it comes to subjects like this. There is absolutely no reason for a game whose heart and soul is balanced, variable PvP to center, almost totally to the exclusion of all else, on the actions of Warriors and Monks. Soon we will have eight classes in the game, and right now each of them is udged mased on what it can do to support either Warriors or Monks. And that is just not right
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Jan 31, 2006, 04:48 AM // 04:48
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#120
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Aug 2005
Guild: Servants of Fortuna
Profession: E/Me
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And what do you expect us to do about it? We're just saying what is. It might be sad, but regardless, Arenanet's job with this expansion is to improve the balance and gameplay with new, interesting game mechanics and so far what they've shown is another spike class with a few potentially exploitable running/teleporting skills (Assassin) and a class that is based on possibly the worst episode in this game's post-release history, spirit spamming (Ritualist). Is it surprising that a lot of the hardcore players in this game are bashing on them? I don't like the reliance on Warriors or Monks either (I personally think Monks are worse), but that's the way the game is, design flaws and all, and you either get used to it or you stop playing. The best you can do is point out the flaws and pray Arenanet fixes them.
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