Curse

JR · Feb 28, 2006, 09:02 AM // 09:02

I am going to make an attempt to sum this up fairly comprehensively, to end the quite shocking amount of bull flying around. However much fun Ensign is having with it.

This game has two sides to it. PvP, and PvE. I would personally argue that the PvP side is more important, as it is ever changing and will keep players interested for a long time. The PvE experience on the other hand is short, repetitive, and not very challenging or rewarding. However, this really has very little to do with which side we think is more important, because evidently they both are to some people.

Now for an example, lets wind it back to the Dust Trap bug (because I love that one so much). At the time of the bug, Dust Trap was doing double the amount of damage it should have been.

What happened in PvP? It was noticed within a few hours, and dozens of groups went and held halls with trappers. The number snowballed as more people found out about it and went in to try and win some nice shiny sigils. For a couple of weeks afterwards people were still trying trapper groups and variations. Infact I am fairly sure it led to "ViMway" coming about.

What happened in PvE? ...Nothing much. A few UW trappers may have realised they were maybe doing a bit more damage than they should, and farmed a bit harder untill it was fixed.

You see, the problem is that PvP is competitive. The entire PvP game revolves largely around finding the most powerfull skill combinations. It's what we call a metagame. People are always looking for the next skill change, and how they might use it to their advantage, or if it weakens their current build at all. Skills that are imbalanced in PvP just ruin the diversity of the game. Like now for example, just about every single guild I can think of runs Gale axe warriors. Most people don't know how to use gale to it's best ability, and will never get the most out of it, but still they do. You put a small tweak on Gale and suddenly other types of warriors are viable again.

Does that small tweak effect PvE much? Nope. Infact... Does any skill change *really* effect PvE? ...Nope. So you suddenly can't kill a mursaat monk boss in under seven seconds anymore? Thats hardly making the game worse is it. To be honest I am fairly sure I could hench my way through PvE with my monk, using an empty skillbar and just wanding things.

Skill balance has a near tectonic effect on PvP, and next to no effect on PvE in comparison. That is not "the opinion of a PvP player", that is just the cold hard truth of the matter. I have played through the PvE side of this game seven times across two accounts, and I can not remember a single skill balance effecting any of my characters in their PvE lives. Nor would I care if it did.

Now this IS a PvP thread, about balance changes for the PvP side of the game. Keep it that way.

Sorry Ensign.

Mithie · Feb 28, 2006, 09:05 AM // 09:05

There are a few skills that I think are perfectly balanced for what their role is suppose to be, but no one ever uses them. I don't know if these skills should be buffed or tweaked to fit the metagame.

For instance, when was the last time you saw someone use Rust? Ignorance? Verata's Gaze? Deflect Arrows? Magnetic Aura? How many of you even have these skills unlocked? I'm not just talking about PvP either. These skills aren't getting used AT ALL for both PvE AND PvP. These skills all have a purpose, and they serve that purpose well, but the thing is, those purposes have no place whatsoever in the current metagame - hence they're not getting used. At all.

yesitsrob · Feb 28, 2006, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Hey, I've been proven wrong before, and I enjoy it when it happens - means I learned something. It just requires a few things, namely a well supported argument that I can logically follow. People have done it before, and will certainly do it again.

I'm interested in discussion, not debate, after all.

I phrased my original comment totally wrong - my bad. I'd just read the thread and most the points had been backed up with incorrectness - and that some people needed to stop because they were digging their hole deeper and deeper.

On Res Sigs: My problems normally relate to the heroes ascent res reactivations. I think holding a flag stand for 2 minutes in gvg is fine since you really need to fight for that, and more often than not it actually creates for entertaining and tense battles.

With the ghost it calls for what I consider to be pretty dodgey strategies - Things like:

On Scarred Earth: Standing him next to an enemy obelisk in scarred earth to get him killed.
On Scarred Earth: Letting the last guy in a team kill your ghost so that the other team can't get res sigs off him.
On Burial Mounds: The fact that your ghost ressing because of the priest is a disadvantage (allows the enemy to get multiple morale boosts and resses).

Hm, all this said, tombs is a real chaotic environment anyway, you can play shit but have a huge bit of luck and win. and can play excellent and can be destroyed because of some unlucky gank - obviously this can happen in the 3 way matches. I think someone on iq forums mentioned that keeping your ghost alive for a period of time could be a way to perhaps get reactivation - that's a bit more similar to the flag morale boost - and it actually makes killing the enemy ghost a good objective early on - although I could still see problems with this

Perhaps aggro bubble is to short for orders and party and the likes - I wonder though, if they were to reduce the range of such skills would other similar skills have theirs reduced. The likes of martyr maybe, which is probably ok as is.

I do have a problem with orders in that a large amount of the damage from say ranger spikes can stay _way_ in the back. And same goes for the heal party spammers, they counter so much degen and other minor damage way too effectively considering how they can remain in very hard to reach positions.

I think the range of spirits is ok personally (despite my strong hate for natures), though I'd like to see Edge of Extinctions chain reaction disappear

BigTru · Feb 28, 2006, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

There are a few skills that I think are perfectly balanced for what their role is suppose to be, but no one ever uses them. I don't know if these skills should be buffed or tweaked to fit the metagame.

For instance, when was the last time you saw someone use Rust? Ignorance? Verata's Gaze? Deflect Arrows? Magnetic Aura? How many of you even have these skills unlocked? I'm not just talking about PvP either. These skills aren't getting used AT ALL for both PvE AND PvP. These skills all have a purpose, and they serve that purpose well, but the thing is, those purposes have no place whatsoever in the current metagame - hence they're not getting used. At all.

Rust = Worst ele skill, ever.

Ignorance = Signet spammers aren't usually top priority, but I ssuppose it does have it's use with them becoming more common.

Verata's Gaze = I use it in PvE and if Minion Masters were viable aside from specialized builds, I'd use it in PvP, too.

Deflect Arrows = Worst warrior skill, ever.

Magnetic Aura = Hideous recharge for a simple skill that's effect is already common. But then again, it's an elementalist skill - shouldn't it be crap just like 90 percent of their skills?

And yes,many people (myself included) have unlocked all skills, including these.

apoggy · Feb 28, 2006, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTru

Rust = Worst mesmer skill, ever.

Says it all really

flawless650 · Feb 28, 2006, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Crippling shot is in no need of a nerf; the major problem is that expertise is overpowered. At a high enough expertise, one is able to reduce the recharge and energy cost of many skills by half. Notice in the Faction Preview Weekend that the premade R/Ass could spam all his skills indefinably without much energy loss. In fact, rangers can be better at being an assassin than an assassin can. Notice how most R/Me bring blackout. Notice how R/N touchers are a viable option in CA/TA. The major issue at hand is that expertise is a broken attribute.

yesitsrob · Feb 28, 2006, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Rust = Worst mesmer skill, ever.

wow

never actually played one but i'd assume a crappy minion factory would run verata's gaze right? it isn't run in pve because in pve because well.... you dont really need to plan on your mm dying

I laughed at rust - and I was so used to it doing nothing to me in most situations that i died to it when trying to cast a signet of devotion once and not realising it was taking forever

- i agree though in general it's not going to be used much

Quote:

one is able to reduce the recharge and energy cost of many skills by half.

how does one reduce the recharge of a skill by expertise? or am i missing something here?

Mysterial · Feb 28, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTru

Rust = Worst mesmer skill, ever.

Ignorance = Signet spammers aren't usually top priority, but I ssuppose it does have it's use with them becoming more common.

Verata's Gaze = I use it in PvE and if Minion Masters were viable aside from specialized builds, I'd use it in PvP, too.

Deflect Arrows = Worst warrior skill, ever.

Magnetic Aura = Hideous recharge for a simple skill that's effect is already common. But then again, it's an elementalist skill - shouldn't it be crap just like 90 percent of their skills?

And yes,many people (myself included) have unlocked all skills, including these.

Rust isn't good because it has a low AoE and too high recharge; otherwise it'd be great in the res sig dominated game we have now. In the arenas it also hilariously owns most warriors, who will try to use Healing Signet anyway.

Ignorance is a reasonable skill, it's just that there aren't enough signet builds and it isn't worth devoting a skill slot for a build you will encounter so infrequently.

Deflect Arrows just plain sucks.

I don't play MM, so can't comment on Verata's Gaze.

Magnetic Aura is underrated. Compare it to Warrior/Ranger evasion stances and with the exception of being an enchantment instead of a stance it blows many of them out of the water. In PvE it's only used in solo builds because in any other situation you probably have someone else to absorb damage and Magnetic Aura is target self. In random arenas it's insanely good against the huge numbers of warriors when you don't have a monk to save you, and it has great synergy with Glyph of Renewal which will make you nearly invulnerable to half the enemies you'll face. The only change I'd make to this spell is make it target ally instead of target self.

Now, Swirling Aura on the other hand is like Magnetic Aura minus the good parts...

Carinae · Feb 28, 2006, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

never actually played one but i'd assume a crappy minion factory would run verata's gaze right? it isn't run in pve because in pve because well.... you dont really need to plan on your mm dying

You're thinking of Verata's Aura. There are three Verata spells:

Verata's Aura - recover lost unbound minions, used when MM dies
Verata's Gaze - unbind an enemy minion, or bind an unbound minion
Verata's Sacrifice - regen allied minions

VS is used by all MMs.
VA is used by MF to recover minions if the MM is ganked.
Verata's Gaze is never used.

yesitsrob · Feb 28, 2006, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

You're thinking of Verata's Aura. There are three Verata spells:

Verata's Aura - recover lost unbound minions, used when MM dies
Verata's Gaze - unbind an enemy minion, or bind an unbound minion
Verata's Sacrifice - regen allied minions

VS is used by all MMs.
VA is used by MF to recover minions if the MM is ganked.
Verata's Gaze is never used.

Yeah I was thinking of aura - and yeah.. I wouldn't touch Verata's Gaze

JR · Feb 28, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by flawless650

Crippling shot is in no need of a nerf; the major problem is that expertise is overpowered. At a high enough expertise, one is able to reduce the recharge and energy cost of many skills by half. Notice in the Faction Preview Weekend that the premade R/Ass could spam all his skills indefinably without much energy loss. In fact, rangers can be better at being an assassin than an assassin can. Notice how most R/Me bring blackout. Notice how R/N touchers are a viable option in CA/TA. The major issue at hand is that expertise is a broken attribute.

So is divine favor broken because the boon prot exists? Is Fast Casting broken because FC Air Spike exists?... No. Expertise is a usefull primary attribute, unlike Strength and Energy Storage which are in a word... pants. (Barring a very select few skills in those lines).

Cripshot does take advantage of Expertise through being so damned spammable, thats the simple fact. It is the only skill I can think of that is quite so effective on a high Expertise ranger. It does not break expertise by any definition.

Count to Potato · Feb 28, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTru

Rust = Worst ele skill, ever.

Its used against runner for droks.. only useful to monsters

Loralai · Feb 28, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Deflect arrows is used by quite a few FoW chest runners.

Age · Feb 28, 2006, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I am going to make an attempt to sum this up fairly comprehensively, to end the quite shocking amount of bull flying around. However much fun Ensign is having with it.

This game has two sides to it. PvP, and PvE. I would personally argue that the PvP side is more important, as it is ever changing and will keep players interested for a long time. The PvE experience on the other hand is short, repetitive, and not very challenging or rewarding. However, this really has very little to do with which side we think is more important, because evidently they both are to some people.

Now for an example, lets wind it back to the Dust Trap bug (because I love that one so much). At the time of the bug, Dust Trap was doing double the amount of damage it should have been.

What happened in PvP? It was noticed within a few hours, and dozens of groups went and held halls with trappers. The number snowballed as more people found out about it and went in to try and win some nice shiny sigils. For a couple of weeks afterwards people were still trying trapper groups and variations. Infact I am fairly sure it led to "ViMway" coming about.

What happened in PvE? ...Nothing much. A few UW trappers may have realised they were maybe doing a bit more damage than they should, and farmed a bit harder untill it was fixed.

You see, the problem is that PvP is competitive. The entire PvP game revolves largely around finding the most powerfull skill combinations. It's what we call a metagame. People are always looking for the next skill change, and how they might use it to their advantage, or if it weakens their current build at all. Skills that are imbalanced in PvP just ruin the diversity of the game. Like now for example, just about every single guild I can think of runs Gale axe warriors. Most people don't know how to use gale to it's best ability, and will never get the most out of it, but still they do. You put a small tweak on Gale and suddenly other types of warriors are viable again.

Does that small tweak effect PvE much? Nope. Infact... Does any skill change *really* effect PvE? ...Nope. So you suddenly can't kill a mursaat monk boss in under seven seconds anymore? Thats hardly making the game worse is it. To be honest I am fairly sure I could hench my way through PvE with my monk, using an empty skillbar and just wanding things.

Skill balance has a near tectonic effect on PvP, and next to no effect on PvE in comparison. That is not "the opinion of a PvP player", that is just the cold hard truth of the matter. I have played through the PvE side of this game seven times across two accounts, and I can not remember a single skill balance effecting any of my characters in their PvE lives. Nor would I care if it did.

Now this IS a PvP thread, about balance changes for the PvP side of the game. Keep it that way.

Sorry Ensign.

There are skills that affect PvE since the AoE update Firestorm,Balthazar Aura,Zealots Fire and Yes Protective Bond are useless.I wouldn't say the game is stricky PvP why would Monks get a smiting attribute and considering the AI update I doubt that you can hench your way through the whole game with a blank skill bar.Don't forget about the SoCs.I mostly beta tested PvP in Tomps and CA not much in PvE although today I mostly play PvE.

Falcon213 · Feb 28, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTru

Rust = Worst ele skill, ever.

I garuntee that if the energy cost was brought down to 10, then rust would see quite a bit of use in CA. Of course, the bigger problem is that it's a water skill. Still, there need to be skills that can be brought in depending on the metagame. I used to play competitive Magic, and there were many cards that people thought were crap, but then a new build would come around, and all of the sudden everyone's running 4x of the card (or 3 with one that they can bring in after the first game) as their only way to counter the new build.
Similarly, you would NEVER see a mes running both shatter and drain enchantment, (probably neither) if it weren't for divine boon being run on almost every single monk build in gvg.

Quote:

Ignorance = Signet spammers aren't usually top priority, but I ssuppose it does have it's use with them becoming more common.

Pretty much the same answer as before, although I would like to see it have a larger range so it could be used as a counter for res sig.

Quote:

Deflect Arrows = Worst warrior skill, ever.

Magnetic Aura = Hideous recharge for a simple skill that's effect is already common. But then again, it's an elementalist skill - shouldn't it be crap just like 90 percent of their skills?

Both of these skills are used. Just because they aren't used in pvp doesn't mean anything. Some skills are created for use in pve and suck in pvp and vice versa. Some skills are hiding in the back waiting for a change in metagame. And of course no one can deny that some skills just plain suck or are too powerful. Those are the ones that need to be tweaked.

And yes,many people (myself included) have unlocked all skills, including these.[/QUOTE]

Edit: Mixed up Rust and Ignorance there.. you know what I meant to say.

Mysterial · Feb 28, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcon213

I garuntee that if the energy cost was brought down to 10, then rust would see quite a bit of use in CA.

I find that unlikely... since the energy cost is currently 5. The spell simply doesn't hit enough and takes too long to recharge to be much use even in the arenas.

Falcon213 · Feb 28, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

I find that unlikely... since the energy cost is currently 5. The spell simply doesn't hit enough and takes too long to recharge to be much use even in the arenas.

Whoops, switched around Rust and Ignorance.

Esprit · Mar 01, 2006, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Now this IS a PvP thread, about balance changes for the PvP side of the game. Keep it that way.

Not necessarily true, sure it revolves around IWAY, but many PvE'ers are hoping that the skill rebalance will add a few buffs to skills to make professions, such as the Elementalist, a little more balanced.

The AI update way back when was for the PvE side, so that AoE wasn't exploited.

The skill rebalance willl affect the PvP side more drastically than PvE, but I would hardly consider this a PvP-skill-rebalance only thread. PvE players are looking forward to/ dreading the skill rebalance just as much.

twicky_kid · Mar 01, 2006, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

Not necessarily true, sure it revolves around IWAY, but many PvE'ers are hoping that the skill rebalance will add a few buffs to skills to make professions, such as the Elementalist, a little more balanced.

The AI update way back when was for the PvE side, so that AoE wasn't exploited.

The skill rebalance willl affect the PvP side more drastically than PvE, but I would hardly consider this a PvP-skill-rebalance only thread. PvE players are looking forward to/ dreading the skill rebalance just as much.

PvE is balanced by the AI. You are never going to run into trouble there with a team that knows what they are doing. As long as it doesn't make farming easier then its fine by me.

Esprit · Mar 01, 2006, 01:05 AM // 01:05

PvE players may not look at the skill rebalance the same way as PvP players do. There has been a mention of skills that were not normally used, changed, so that their use becomes more frequent. Which has probably gotten most of the PvE attention.

PvE groups hardly ever go as a specific build, except for places like FoW, UW, or Tombs. A monk, a warrior, and whatever else you want, and not necessarily the first two mentioned.

I enjoy testing out different skill combinations in PvE, because the AI are predictable, so you know you'll get conclusive results. Those results may or may not translate well to PvP.

That's why I consider the skill rebalance something that concerns both sides of the game. And I don't remember ANET saying 'PvP skill rebalance', it may just look that way because they waited until after the GWWC and before the new contest started.