Curse

FrogDevourer · Feb 27, 2006, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

No, but the feedback provided by PvP players shouldn't be considered in a vacuum as well, without considering the impact to PvE.

I certainly agree with you to some extent. And if firestorm-like skills are put on steroids to make them more usable in PvP, that would be a very bad move for PvE. But most of the time you see a lot of small buffs on unpopular or subpar skills (both in PvE and PvP), and a few PvP-based nerfs issued to hit unbalanced PvP templates.

However there are very few examples where PvE players provided feedback on skill unbalance. Or more precisely, on a balance issue that couldn't be solved by a quick alteration of the monster spawns and of the monster skill bars. Most of the time, only skilled farmers are able to find the best combinations of AI abuse and skills potentially overpowered against stupid opponents. Take the example of 55 monks. You can kill the whole build if you add a decent mesmer to each group of monsters. Add a fully defensive monk to heal the monster group, and 55 soloing will be incredibly harder. Change the AI to detect opponents who have used spells on them and the 55 monk + ss necro duo goes down the bin. You don't actually need to touch any skill. The same stands for UW, FoW and Tombs. SF is much better in terms of mob skillbars and spawns. Once the last AI exploits are fixed, it will be even better.

Sure, there are exceptions like Protective Bond. It's been nerfed into oblivion. See the result? 55 monks with protective spirit. Fixing the skills was a bad idea. Upgrading the AI behaviour against SS/SoJ/Glad and fixing monster spawns is the solution.

In brief, when is PvE feedback any useful? IMHO, not when farmers are able to find new means to play solo or in small groups. On the contrary, PvE can provide some feedback on the worst skills. If a skill is not used in PvP, the skill is probably subpar (or simply unpopular in the current metagame). If it's not usable in PvE, it assuredly needs a buff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

What you say above about the "ease" of PvE is true, except for those of us who enjoy "plodding" through PvE solo, without henchmen.

Well, this game was never designed to be played solo, and ANet has been very clear on this subject. GW is supposedly designed for team play, and skills are designed and balanced for team play. Playing and farming solo in tough places is certainly a challenge, and it's a good way to make the PvE environment better. But it provides one of the worst sorts of feedback ANet could get on skill balance.

Unless ANet decides to develop solo aspects of the game (duels, PvE areas for solo questing, spawn and drop rates adjusted automatically on the number of players), skills should not be balanced on solo players. Monster spawns, AI, skillbars should make solo farming impossible. Don't take me wrong, I enjoy the occasional grinding for gold, items and XPs, and playing solo in some places is a challenge, but it's not what GW is about.

Jetdoc · Feb 27, 2006, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

IWell, this game was never designed to be played solo, and ANet has been very clear on this subject. GW is supposedly designed for team play, and skills are designed and balanced for team play. Playing and farming solo in tough places is certainly a challenge, and it's a good way to make the PvE environment better. But it provides one of the worst sorts of feedback ANet could get on skill balance.

Actually, I find what ANet has said about solo play is somewhat contradicted by some of the revisions to skills we've seen in some of their updates.

A good example is Dolyak Signet. Before, it was a rarely used skill, but it received a significant armor buff in the fall. Now, it is a staple to most solo PvE warriors, but still is rarely used in either PvP or group PvE play due to its devastating impact to movement speed.

I understand that solo play from a farming standpoint is discouraged, but I think that PvE play from a solo standpoint drives a good many of us to continue playing the game, which is why ANet is mindful to PvE players' opinions as well. There seems to be a growing rift between those skills that are almost exclusively used in PvE and not in PvP and vice versa, and this may be on purpose to avoid many of those "conflicts" between the two arenas.

WNxMeteora · Feb 27, 2006, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Why does everyoen insist orders needs to be nerfed, i think orders is one of the few balanced skills heres why...

Cost, it is very difficult to ALLWAYS keep up BOTH orders, try it some time you have to be coordinated with the ranger spike group to use it in such a way that it will be in effect durign their spike, also you have to sacrifice life in order to use them limiting how much u ca ncast them even if u get energy recharge

Duration, duration to recharge ratio forces you to spam it bringing down your energy

Vulnerability, when focusing on orders and using heal party whenever u get the energy you are pretty distracted, and who knows, if some1 actually noticed there are only 7 guys attacking the team they might send a warrior to look for the nec...enfeeble isnt going to keep a war from killing you

that being said i think it is more beneficial to look at what will be buffed as opposed to nerfed, personally i would love to see water eles be boosted because that is my favorite character, i hate feeling like i'm being forced to play a ranger spiker orders nec or e-denial mesmer, they need to make it so more builds are viable besides cookie cutters like gale wars

Ghull Ka · Feb 27, 2006, 09:19 PM // 21:19

I find it sad that the most learned, analytical posters here on these boards are quick to disregard PvE players as mindless, drooling, keg-holding morons whos opinons or preferences in gameplay are worth less than squat.

Not everyone holds a damned gear when they play PvE.

Ether Renewal was great before its widespread abuse at the hands of E/Mo smiters in PvP. Now it is a skill that I wouldn't dream of taking with me. It's my example of a skill that, because of abuse/overuse/exploitation in PvP, was killed for PvE.

I'm sure my opinion will be disregarded and I will be made to appear as if I'm an idiot gear-holding schmoe now, who plays only to "exploit AI" and "grind". Whatever. I could cook up clever, veiled insult generalizations about the mindset of competitive PvP players, but it's not really worth it.

Moving on,

I don't believe that any of the most-used skills in PvP should be changed simply because they're overused in PvP -- Offering of Blood, Boon/Reversal, Crippling Shot, Distortion, Eviscerate. They're fine skills as they are. They're most used because the math says that they're the best. (Naturally you can use other skills and still be competitive, but that isn't the nature of competitive play. If steroids were legalized in the NFL tomorrow, your team would be noobs for not using them, after all.)

I'll be truly upset if they reduce Offering of Blood's effectiveness, simply because it's overused in PvP.

I respect the difficult job that ANet has in balancing skills for both forms of gameplay. If a skill is abused in PvP, then naturally it must be adjusted, and sometimes it's difficult to adjust it in such a way that it does not end that skill's abililty to be used practically in PvE. Breaking eggs < Omlettes.

I don't think that a skill which is abused in PvE should be adjusted at all, I think that the environment in which that skill is most commonly used is the thing which should be adjusted. Adding healers and mesmers to commonly farmed areas would be a great start.

I will be most happy the day that ANet fixes the book/keg/gear/torch trick. At least then, Ensign will have to find another way to disqualify the opinions of PvE players, strategy will begin to mean more, Sorrow's Furnace will become challenging, and I won't ever have to argue for 10 minutes with my Fissure of Woe PUG that no, we don't have to use the damned book trick.

And in closing, IMHO, Protective Bond is far from useless.

Count to Potato · Feb 27, 2006, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valdaran Longfoot

I don't want to say much on what is and what is not balanced, but my thought personally is Spitefull Sprit.

Though I would not bet on it, it could be anything.

I am interested to see what they do change though.

I think SS was only like spells or skills before but Anet changed it to anything

Maybe nerfed now but i think it was Anet mistake at beginning

Age · Feb 27, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

How come everyone keeps talking about Iway when there is another Fot.moment build.This build is the W/E with eviscrete,frenzy and gale.I prefer to be more creative in making up builds.These build are more like science they work where as no imagination.I guess I look at it in artistic in me where I prefer something that goes agaisnt the grain.

I would like to see some better skills especially those in the sword and hammer line get some buffs as axe is over used in both PvE and PvP.It would be nice if 100 blades,hamstring,pure strike and seeking blade were like the Rangers Kindle Arrow and Melandru's Arrows.When it come to solo farming maybe when chapter 2 comes out maybe Anet can make some place in Tyria soloable.I don't think many would go along with LFG to farm with in outposts.

Carinae · Feb 27, 2006, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

imagine the howl if/when they fix the enemy AI so they follow you around that corner instead of trying to shoot through it while you laugh at them?

If they also fix that for minions, then I'll be the one laughing!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

I find it sad that the most learned, analytical posters here on these boards are quick to disregard PvE players as mindless, drooling, keg-holding morons whos opinons or preferences in gameplay are worth less than squat.

Yea, I'm getting that vibe also, especially when then problem isn't with the PvE community, but the environment. If the mobs changed every instance, if the gear trick didn't work, if the AI was smarter, if....

PvEers are getting criticized for exploiting the environment, when the environment is clearly setup to be exploited. Hell, even rotating the mobs would make it impossible to run an over-powered monster-specific build, and require larger more balanced squads.

Here's one back at ya: I think catapults should be nerfed in PvP. They take no skill to use, and any R1 noobs can pull the lever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

I'll be truly upset if they reduce Offering of Blood's effectiveness, simply because it's overused in PvP.

I'll be upset also. The problem is this: The 10% sacrifice is nothing to a Monk primary, plus they are using lots of fast 5en spells. Do you see how they are doubly-attuned to OoB? So Offering is quite overpowered for Mo/N, although they DO have to put points into Blood.

Ensign suggests raising the sacrifice to 17-20% And that increase is covered (from a necro pov) by the Vampiric spells. But that's more sacrifice than using OoB under Awaken! Try it, it hurts, but it's not ruinous.

Most blood spiker variations run Awaken for the extra spike damage. So, blood spikers (both PvE and PvP) would now have to deal with double the normal sacrifice. That's 30% every pop, under AtB.

If they raise the sac for OoB, they need to buff lifesteal/vampiric spells by an equal percentage (they supposedly compensate each other). This is a proposed 70-100% increase in the OoB sacrifice, so just buff Vamp Gaze and Shadow Strike by 70-100% and I won't complain.

Even without AtB, 17-20% is a painful sac for every other class. And it really doesn't affect Mo/N besides high-pressure situations.

Thats just to stop Mo/N abusing OoB.

Fantus · Feb 27, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

About the whole "PvE players are just evil abusers of the AI" thing...

... don't we even HAVE to "abuse" the AI in order to succeed against mobs which are three times as powerful as the human party is? Isn't the fact that humans are smarter than computers the very reason we have to fight level 29 Ataxes instead of level 20 ones?

streetboy · Feb 27, 2006, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

I think all players know for a fact that Crippling Shot will be nerfed.

A skill that can be used no matter what amount of marksmanship you have, giving the full 8 seconds of cripple, can't be blocked or evaded, and has a 1 second recharge time, not to mention the 10 energy cost is way to small of a class that specifically reduces the energy cost of skills such as this.

well, this can be simply fixed by adding 50% failure if marksmanship is lower than X

Mimi Miyagi · Feb 27, 2006, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Then what is? Everyone ignored your assertion because you failed to substantiate it at all.

Then what is the truth? Who really does understand what's abusive and what's not in PvP, or even PvE?

I'm seriously curious who you think is qualified to talk about what's broken if the people who break things aren't.

I said it in my first post - the dev team is in a much better position to discuss skill balancing than players. Players in of themselves have way too much tunnel vision in their grasp of what is balanced or not, to be a fair judge of what needs to be done. Players provide input (too much most of the time) as
it is.

This isn't just a phenomena only in GW - it happens in every single online/multiplayer game. I've seen this same argument dozens of times in different gaming communities, and while there may or may not be some agreement between the development houses and the player base, it's the devs who have to make the changes work.

Zexion · Feb 27, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

I find it rather hard to believe that Gale will actually be nerfed. Prior to the "IWAY Revolution" Warriors were viewed as extremely crappy. When someone figured out a way for them to close their range limitations effectively, there was a sudden bout of chaotic "ZOMG I GOT PWNT BY TEH WARRIOR NOOB" chants. However, Warriors are still easy to just ignore with a bit of Warrior-hate ability. Effectively, Gale is going to keep Warriors useful after the IWAY nerf, so there really is very little reason to nerf. Besides, Chapter 2 brings with it a new Warrior skill called "Coward!" that will likely replace Gale very quickly.

Once, Orders reached ALL THE MAP! Now it only affects the allies you can see on your radar. So no, a nerf of orders is very unlikely, as they have already nerfed that aspect of it.

_Zexion

icemonkey · Feb 27, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Here's one back at ya: I think catapults should be nerfed in PvP. They take no skill to use, and any R1 noobs can pull the lever.

The catapult adds another dimension of strategy to the game, makes it so you cant just run around without considering whats going on with that catapult. Also may be there to help break stalemates earlier than VOD. its not about skill its about strategy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

If they raise the sac for OoB, they need to buff lifesteal/vampiric spells by an equal percentage (they supposedly compensate each other). This is a proposed 70-100% increase in the OoB sacrifice, so just buff Vamp Gaze and Shadow Strike by 70-100% and I won't complain.

I will not dignify that with a response, that is complete nonsense. What is wrong with you? You use elite for energy management in PvE???? I'll do you a favor: stop immediatly and put a few points into soul reap...you will never have energy problems. And don't even bring up Battery necros cuz that is for feeding multiple high output ele's. PvE does not need the elite energy management.

Hmm why are we only concerned about PvP when we talk about skill balances? This is for several reasons that are abundantly clear to people who are experienced with PvP and PvE
-PvE is outrageously easy, as ensign has said, you never get abused by skills you abuse the computer with them
-PvP is the Fountainhead of this game PvE is an afterthought, theres a reason the cap is at 20 and you get only 8 skills and only 200 att points its for balance...in PVP
-the goals in PvP are different from PvE, in PvP you have to do things, cap altars, run objects or flags ect. sure you do this OCASIONALLY in PvE but not under pressure from a real human team. Therefore skills that are broken in PvP dont have the same effect in PvE, and since PVP is the goal of this game PvE loses in a conflict of interest
-In PvE there is no loser, you pretty much always win in PvP some, many in fact, have to lose for there to be a winner, therefore balance is more important in PvP. the environment doesnt complain when they get screwed people do.

if you only play PvE you have totally missed the boat with this game do yourself a favor stop playing there are WAAAAAAAAAY better rpg games that you fight a computer enemy. But you wont do that cuz you want to sit and abuse a stupid enemy with other people for no challenge.

Ensign · Feb 27, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Arguing with Ensign is stupid, because you will in fact be wrong, don't waste your time

Hey, I've been proven wrong before, and I enjoy it when it happens - means I learned something. It just requires a few things, namely a well supported argument that I can logically follow. People have done it before, and will certainly do it again.

I'm interested in discussion, not debate, after all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Orders and Party - reduced to bubble range

Eh maybe, but I think that'd destroy the skills (at least Orders). You want the skills to still affect your group provided that you're all together in the group. Thing is that, at least in PvP, a team is often fighting 8 on 8 but they aren't all clustered up nicely within an aggro bubble. Part of what makes those skills good is that they're fire and forget, you don't have to jump through positioning hoops to make them work. Of course right now the AoEs are so huge that they lead to exploits.

I don't know what the right range on the skills should be, but I'm sure that radar is too big, and I'm pretty sure that aggro bubble is too small. Maybe spirit is too big as well. In any case there's some point in there where the skills still maintain their usefulness when playing with the team while losing their 'across the map' exploitability. Testing would be needed to find it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

and maybe do something about the recharging of sigs on the ghost - I think the fact that killing your own ghost early is a good strategy is bullshit, and for teams that run about 7 res sigs - potentially having 14 sigs is ridiculous - that's obviously ha related.

Well I think that sigs recharging on morale is absolutely key. But I agree that something's a little off when you want to let the other team kill your Ghostly Hero early because it denies them more Ressigs. I think that's the difference between an environment supported by Ressigs and one dominated by them. I don't think that the Ressig discussion has been had in a terrible amount of depth yet though and it's one that I'd enjoy having.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirErnieMacGloop

Isn't PvP about teamwork and group/build forming?
Doesn't Iway promote the opposite?

iWay has two big things going for it. The first is that it's not a build that requires a lot of coordination. Each character acts independently doing his own thing, and while some communication is useful it isn't going to cripple the team if it doesn't happen. The second is that it's a fast paced build that wins and loses quickly, making it more appealing to a player with less time on his hands.

The net of those two things is that an iWay player can get a group quickly, can just play without having to discuss builds or strategy, and have some amount of success with it. Builds that put emphesis on player skill instead of teamwork will always have that advantage.

The problem with iWay, of course, is that it's a ridiculously powerful offense that's abusing as many broken skills as any other build in the game - not just four warriors, the best damage dealers in the game, but warriors stacking IAS buffs, plus undercosted, ridiculously powerful game altering spirits, plus radar range spammables that dominate the game. Easy to get started with plus overpowered mechanics gives you the mess you're looking at now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WNxMeteora

Cost, it is very difficult to ALLWAYS keep up BOTH orders

That's why you use two necros, one with each Order, if you really want to abuse the things. A single Order is strong enough to justify a character slot. If it's a spike group, each necro can put up his Order, then spike with the rest of the group with an enchantment removal or a Vampiric Gaze. If you're not spiking you can just spam the Order whenever you have the energy, no coordination required. A character with both Orders is just poor in my experience, he cannot afford to have more than one up with any consistency.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WNxMeteora

if some1 actually noticed there are only 7 guys attacking the team they might send a warrior to look for the nec...enfeeble isnt going to keep a war from killing you

Sure, but the Cripshot ranger who noticed you making that move certainly can. If there's one thing I've learned from playing against iWay, it's that rushing that guy in the back is one of the fastest ways to wipe your party. He can just run away with a huge head start while the rest of their team rages your backs...it never ends well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

Not everyone holds a damned gear when they play PvE.

Of course not, only the warrior does.

I'm not trying to disqualify discussions about PvE balance, but I'm trying to focus it onto the points of it that are most important. Sure, I know that not everyone plays with a gear, but if you're not playing with a gear should you really be talking about what's overpowered or not in PvE? Balance starts at the top. When talking about PvP balance you look at what's dominating the Hall of Heroes, or what the top guilds are dominating with. You don't look at what people are losing with in Dark Chambers, or what the ~1000 ranked guilds are beating each other with. If it's not dominating how can you call it overpowered?

The same goes for PvE. You don't start a discussion about PvE balance by looking at pugs and casual players. Not that they don't have a concern, but that their concern is pretty minimal because they aren't abusing the broken stuff. No, if you want to talk about PvE balance you start at the top - gear tanks, Protective Spirit / 55 monking, Spiteful Spirit abuse. Those are the dominant strategies in PvE, and if there's an imbalance that's where you need to look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

Ether Renewal was great before its widespread abuse at the hands of E/Mo smiters in PvP.

Well of course it was, I was bitching about that skill back in January 2005. It was an infinite energy engine for anyone with half a brain. Cast Ether Renewal, toss 3-4 spells in, and you're at full energy. The amount of energy you could get out of the thing was limited only by your Energy Storage attribute, and how expensive you could make the spells you cast during Renewal itself.

I'd like to point out that the E/Mo smiter wasn't just good in PvP. It was downright retarded in PvE. Smiting off of a gear tank against monsters who never fled out of your power-spammed AoEs? Yes please. Renewal was hardly neccessary because you cut through every mob in the game in less than 10 seconds with dual smite in PvE. An Ele couldn't even cast Meteor Shower because the monsters would be dead before the first meteor hit.

Sure there were some players doing 'fair' things with Ether Renewal, like casting Flare over and over again to refill energy with an Attunement up or something. Yes, they suffered some splash damage from the nerf. That's unfortunate but unavoidable. You can't hold a game hostage, balance-wise, because some scrub somewhere might have his pet build nerfed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

I don't think that a skill which is abused in PvE should be adjusted at all, I think that the environment in which that skill is most commonly used is the thing which should be adjusted. Adding healers and mesmers to commonly farmed areas would be a great start.

Agreed entirely. Most of the problems in PvE are a consequence of poor mob design and bad AI tricks. If a problem can be addressed that way it should be. Only in rare cases where the skill itself is a problem (ala Protective Bond) should a skill see the nerf stick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

I said it in my first post - the dev team is in a much better position to discuss skill balancing than players. Players in of themselves have way too much tunnel vision in their grasp of what is balanced or not, to be a fair judge of what needs to be done.

I'll give you half of that argument. The developers are in a much better position to decide what's a good change and what is not for the good of the game, because, well, it's their game. They have a vision of how they want the game to be played, of how it's supposed to feel, and ultimately any decisions along those lines need to be made by them. However I will argue that that is less applicible to fine-tuning of skills than bigger issues.

I had the opportunity to speak with arena.net's founders about different design decisions while in Taipei and I was really impressed by how they answered some of the questions I had. For instance, I asked if leveling was actually an important part of the game, or if it was something that was put in because of some pressure to conform to what was expected. The answer is that leveling is important because of the learning process. If a new player comes into the game and encounters something difficult that he can't pass he'll get frustrated and quit after a few tries. But with leveling in the game, even if he fails at passing that barrier he'll have still accomplished something, and eventually he'll gain a level or two and have enough power to overcome that obstacle regardless. So even in a game like this one the leveling process is really important because it keeps new players involved long enough to learn what they'll need to learn to succeed once they hit the level cap.

But while they understand the big design decisions that shape the game they just don't focus on the details. I ribbed Jeff Strain at one point for letting Gaile play over him on the 4v4 arena team and he said it was because he's awful at PvP and Gaile's better. I'll let that one sit for a moment. Now despite that he has made a great PvP game, and I'm sure he has a lot of ideas about how he wants the game to ultimately play out, a vision of Guild Wars PvP as it were.

That's why A.Net hired people like Izzy, why they maintain a QA team and have a closed test. They have ideas about how they want things to be, but actually doing the fine tuning to actualize that visualization is really, really hard (just look at all the other MMOs that have failed at that). So why is Izzy good at his job? Because he's a competitive PvP player. He does break things, hell he's really good at breaking the limits of the game. He understands not only that things are overpowered, but *why* they are. Because of that he can work with the rest of the development team to implement the fixes that are ultimately best for the game.

So in a way you're right, the people on the inside are in the best position to make balance decisions. But for the most part they aren't the best people to be making those decisions, because their skills and talents lie elsewhere. The best decisions are made by competitive players who have been hired onto the development team for exactly those reasons, to put the right people in the right position to make these decisions.

As I'm on the outside I can't pretend that I'm in a good position to decide what's best for the game. Hell there are people who are a lot better at that than me anyway. What I can do from the outside is use my experience and understanding of the game to try and explain *why* things are working the way they are, so that they can ultimately make better decisions about where they want to go with the game.

Peace,
-CxE

RandomEngy · Feb 27, 2006, 11:52 PM // 23:52

About Spiteful Spirit, it will be quite broken when they change the HoD helm, and even more so when Assassins start coming into the mix with Factions. I really love the skill but I think there's a 70% chance something's going to be done about it. SS Necros are vulnerable to hex removal and interrupts, but they've got plenty of room on the bar for cover hexes, anti-intterupt skills and energy management skills. If you're bringing Arcane Echo on a PvP SS Necro, you're doing something wrong.

Another thing I've heard few people talk about are advantages PvE characters/items get over PvP ones:

HoD helm, obviously
-5 energy swords let you more effectively hide energy and abuse Purge Signet
When rolling a PvP character you've only got two weapons to pick. I'd like to have three on a warrior: one physical damage weapon, one elemental damage weapon and a wand for building adrenaline at range.

Basically, the concept of being able to roll up a PvP character that is as competitive as any PvE character is in jeapordy. I don't want to have to scrounge for obscure items in PvE and swap them in and out from PvP characters all the while being careful that they don't get deleted along with the PvP character, which happens several times a day. I especially don't want to have to play as a PvE character, due to the grind involved to get the right gear and possibility that you simply don't have the right character to play as that profession.

Stabber · Feb 28, 2006, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

About the whole "PvE players are just evil abusers of the AI" thing...

... don't we even HAVE to "abuse" the AI in order to succeed against mobs which are three times as powerful as the human party is? Isn't the fact that humans are smarter than computers the very reason we have to fight level 29 Ataxes instead of level 20 ones?

Sure, they have more levels, but that doesn't mean that AI mobs don't have significant disadvantages. Mobs don't have the support of a second profession, nor do most have any defensive skills (barring the occasional stance). When was the last time you fought a Bonded mob?

I think saying "three times as powerful" is a bit of a stretch. They have higher levels, greater numbers, and in rare instances unbalancing skills (Fingers of Chaos, Spectral Agony, twin elites, etc.). However, they lack something very fundamental -- a survival instinct. Even the Zaishen, who are supposed to be a simulation of PvP opponents, lack the sense not to charge a heavily trapped spirit (which is why a solo ranger can complete the Zaishen Challenge).

Ranger Li · Feb 28, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

BTW Gale is not the real problem so there is no reason to nerf it.

Read up to here, this just offended me.

Have you EVER Been gale locked, 2-3 warriors bashing over you in a 2 monk backline while your fellow monks are desperately trying to save you but noooo you cant heal yourself because you're consistently KD'd easily and for long enough for you to die in usually one lock(6-9 seconds), Ever tried to infuse but you were galed? Ever try to retreat but they gale-locked you? Most warriors in the metagame use it, it needs to be balanced, preferably through hightened recharge and (maybe) destroying the exhaustion because at a high recharge that seems excessive, raising the requirement for gale is purely superflous because a lot* of w/e's run 9 air magic to benefit from the focus item available.

on another note:

IWAY - sure nerf it, blow your mind out, go Crazy, see if anyone* cares.

Ranger spike - have fun, it won't die because it'll just be amplified more.

in truth anet can't KILL Builds, they can render them to be harder to play, take dual smite for example, E prodigy was nerfed but i still see MANY Smite Eleys/Necros/monks running around with Judge's and B Auror, sure dual smite was hurt* but come on.

2nd Example: Spirit spamming, oh noes where did it go! Are you aware of the terms oath-shot trapper/interrupt/spiker. Spirit spamming in its finest, just on a one-man scale

Crippling Shot is a 'meh' i mean sure it does a nice cripple and whatnot but I can't neccessarily call it 'game-breaking', it disables warriors for a little bit but it was buffed recently to make* it spammable, im not sure anet would nerf it so hastily after making it nicer

SS - I have sympathy for dual UW , its un-needed

Exhaustion focus-swapping glitches would be nice to be rebalanced, as in how they apply, negative exhaustion etc.

raising the bar on distortion slightly wouldn't be too catatonic, 4..1 would be ok, even though i'm against it >:|

Blackout will most likely be nerfed :'( because it'll become the next chain-gale =\

floplag · Feb 28, 2006, 12:42 AM // 00:42

what i read out of most of this is alot of complaining by PvP warriors about stuff that annoys them... and casters for crazy things like IWay. Point is that it goes both way peeps. fighters vs casters, and PvP vs PvE

this game shouldnt be determined by the needs of either PvP or PvE players, but balanced for both. taking away an annoyance for PvP could very well toss a good PvE skill under the buss and make it worthless

restraint is in order here to maintain the balance for both genres and both should be considered

Carinae · Feb 28, 2006, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

The catapult adds another dimension of strategy to the game, makes it so you cant just run around without considering whats going on with that catapult. Also may be there to help break stalemates earlier than VOD. its not about skill its about strategy.

I see sarcasm is lost on you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

I will not dignify that with a response,.

And yet you did...

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

that is complete nonsense. What is wrong with you? You use elite for energy management in PvE???? I'll do you a favor: stop immediatly and put a few points into soul reap...you will never have energy problems. And don't even bring up Battery necros cuz that is for feeding multiple high output ele's. PvE does not need the elite energy management..

A) That's a rather large blanket statement, which pretty much automatically invalidates it. And it's NOT ridiculous to run OoB in PvE.
B) Besides Blood Spike, I didn't mention any build, so you don't KNOW if it's needed or not. Blood Spike and Minion Master run OoB for sure, because you need energy on the front-end. Having energy after the enemy's dead only lets you move on to the next mob faster.
C) I said PvP and PvE.
D) Battery Necros are NOT there to recharge Elementalists, they are there to recharge MONKS. Come to think of it, why is there an Ele there at all?? and why can't he manage his own energy, with his own Elites??

If Offering gets an increased sacrifice just because of Mo/N overuse that's going to have a proportionately larger impact on all the other classes. This is because Mo/N is, by it's very nature, able to efficiently deal with a sacrifice better than any other class. The short of it, in my opinion, is that increasing the sacrifice of OoB won't affect monks AT ALL, unless they are being pressured at the EXACT same time that they need to use OoB. Pop OoB and if necessary, an Orison (5 energy) and the monk's done, with energy to spare.

On the other hand, it WILL affect everyone else who uses it, in a significant way. Even fully Vampiric necros will have a difficult time mitigating the sacrifice, even if they aren't using Awaken. Plus, the life stealing effectively no longer mitigates any damage the necro might be taking.

Lets assume a character has 485 health:

Offering is currently a 10% sac, or 48.5hp and recharges every 15 seconds.
The suggestion is to double that to 20% or 97hp, under Awaken that's 146hp.

Even without AtB, a Blood nec has to spend all the energy he gained (plus some) to regain that health, either via:

VG, wait, VG
VG, SS (conditionally)
Blood Renewal (but now he's down 45% for a time)
Rely on a secondary to self heal (not dealing damage)
Rely on a (possibly non-existent) Monk to heal
Other

See what I mean? Increasing the sacrifice on OoB to discourage Mo/N has a significantly larger impact on Necro's vs Monks. And Necro's are the next best at mitigating sacrifices, all other classes are hurt even worse.

I was being somewhat sarcastic when I suggested boosting life stealing spells 70-100%, but they could use a small buff already, and with that change they'll really need one. Increasing the OoB sac puts more strain on every other class than it puts on Monks, who are the very reason the suggestion was made. Buffing the other energy management spells is a MUCH more palatable suggestion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

if you only play PvE you have totally missed the boat with this game do yourself a favor stop playing there are WAAAAAAAAAY better rpg games that you fight a computer enemy. But you wont do that cuz you want to sit and abuse a stupid enemy with other people for no challenge.

Just stop. This is your opinion, and even if it's true, you're just fanning the flames of the PvP vs PvE debate and it's not helping.

Jetdoc · Feb 28, 2006, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

if you only play PvE you have totally missed the boat with this game do yourself a favor stop playing there are WAAAAAAAAAY better rpg games that you fight a computer enemy. But you wont do that cuz you want to sit and abuse a stupid enemy with other people for no challenge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Just stop. This is your opinion, and even if it's true, you're just fanning the flames of the PvP vs PvE debate and it's not helping.

Exactly. Until there is some sort of understanding from those that focus on PvP that skill "balancing" impacts certain aspects of PvE (especially soloing), and that ANet actually CARES what the impact is to PvE as well, it's pretty hard to have any sort of meaningful debate on an issue.

Tainek · Feb 28, 2006, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger Li

Read up to here, this just offended me.

Have you EVER Been gale locked, 2-3 warriors bashing over you in a 2 monk backline while your fellow monks are desperately trying to save you but noooo you cant heal yourself because you're consistently KD'd easily and for long enough for you to die in usually one lock(6-9 seconds), Ever tried to infuse but you were galed? Ever try to retreat but they gale-locked you? Most warriors in the metagame use it, it needs to be balanced, preferably through hightened recharge and (maybe) destroying the exhaustion because at a high recharge that seems excessive, raising the requirement for gale is purely superflous because a lot* of w/e's run 9 air magic to benefit from the focus item available.
=\

I belive thats known as "tactical use" , all of those warriors have sacrificed a secondary, now being locked into being an ele, they have pathetic energy (exaustion)

if you dont like being galed when casting, dont come near my mesmer..