Curse

CyberNigma · Jan 29, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Yeah those keyboards are using macros.

However, some people are being stupid about this. ANet is not going to ban someone for using one of those 'gaming keyboards'. That's just stupid. Even if for some reason they did, as soon as it hit slashdot and digg that someone got banned because of their gaming keyboard the bad publicity they would get would probably not be worth it.

They merely have to include all kinds of what-ifs so that if something they didn't expect happens they can nip it in the bud. Hell, if you've got a better resolution mouse than me, the driver and support software for that mouse (allowing for the better resolution) would possibly give you an advantage. Now you just have to argue about what they consider an external "program".

They'll probably just get you for something like the old aimbots (whatever an equiv would be for this type of game). Maybe if a program allowed Assassins to do their skill combos perfectly, then someone would get banned. Not for a keyboard, though.. Use some sense people.

Manic Smile · Jan 29, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

if I can get a 4 skill chain off with one button and it takes you 4...imagine what that could do in say that little 100k dealio they got going...but for most of us I doubt it's ever an issue

skill one...wait...skill two...wait

imagine what we could do with if/then statements or do whiles...*sigh* I wanna play with code+GW

fgarvin · Jan 29, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorebrex

Edit: There's never been a need to retype your email every time

Sorry, forgot to mention, I have two accounts...two different e-mail addresses.

Tainek · Jan 29, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

Yeah those keyboards are using macros.

However, some people are being stupid about this. ANet is not going to ban someone for using one of those 'gaming keyboards'. That's just stupid. Even if for some reason they did, as soon as it hit slashdot and digg that someone got banned because of their gaming keyboard the bad publicity they would get would probably not be worth it.

They merely have to include all kinds of what-ifs so that if something they didn't expect happens they can nip it in the bud. Hell, if you've got a better resolution mouse than me, the driver and support software for that mouse (allowing for the better resolution) would possibly give you an advantage. Now you just have to argue about what they consider an external "program".

They'll probably just get you for something like the old aimbots (whatever an equiv would be for this type of game). Maybe if a program allowed Assassins to do their skill combos perfectly, then someone would get banned. Not for a keyboard, though.. Use some sense people.

well thought out post here

my main question is that:

if i wanted to catch a botter i would do the following:

Write a program which logs the times of certain actions, so for example, if i use dual shot and penetrating attack one after the other constantly, there will be different response times, following up dual shot after the previous attack might take me 63 milliseconds, then 67, then 86, then 32 , humans cannot do 60, 60 , 60 BUT a macro will (as that is all it can do, what its been told to)

so i would make a program , that measures reaction time, it would log me over 10 mins, and then say, EVERY SINGLE Pen>dual>pen>dual has had the same timings, this is a bot

now thats fine, but what if i have one that does D-30-a-30-n-30-c-30-e-30enter? that program would catch me out, and flag me as a botter

prehaps im just being anal about it, but i just want to know anets opinion on it

Loviatar · Jan 29, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

I dunno if it's just my paranoia, but that seems highly insecure.

no, just the opposite.

since you bypass typing in your password if you get a kylogger it has no password keystrokes to see or send back.

Tainek · Jan 29, 2006, 08:31 PM // 20:31

but at the same time, the password is stored in plain text, lose lose really

best solution, just dont let any software onto the pc unless you trust it

jamal555 · Jan 29, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

you cant do simle program to catch botters, in your p-30-g-30-?-30 formula there is a thing missing, network lag... as yu gont have ping 1 always or ever, u will always get dome kind of lag on your dommands, bots or human... there are much simpler ways to catch a bot, and they are in use by ANet...

But there are randomising bots and smart bots, and all sorts of bots... u can virtually make a non detectable bot program with some crative coding... i'm not gonna discuss it... but lets say 2nd year applied mathemathics student can write it in 3-4 hours... but there is no need for such program as all the farming places are owerfarmed and nothing good but random money drops... and thats not worth much... 50-60k for 24h is nothing now... u can trade that much in ascalon in 1 hour...

David Lionmaster · Jan 29, 2006, 10:35 PM // 22:35

if you have the password thing after the filename, can you also have the fps thing after it? if so, how?

Kai Nui · Jan 30, 2006, 12:18 AM // 00:18

To the original poster: Just type out one message you want to spam, and press Enter. Press Enter and the Up arrow on your keyboard to go up to what you just said, and press Enter again. Of course it will stop you if you say it too much.

Tainek · Jan 30, 2006, 12:42 AM // 00:42

yes thats easy, but with a macro, i only ever have to type it ONCE (for making the macro) , when i want to say it, i just press a button, i only ever need to say it once per PUG, so this saves me effort (not much, but it accumulates)

Fyre Brand · Jan 30, 2006, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

Yeah those keyboards are using macros.

However, some people are being stupid about this. ANet is not going to ban someone for using one of those 'gaming keyboards'. That's just stupid. Even if for some reason they did, as soon as it hit slashdot and digg that someone got banned because of their gaming keyboard the bad publicity they would get would probably not be worth it.

They merely have to include all kinds of what-ifs so that if something they didn't expect happens they can nip it in the bud. Hell, if you've got a better resolution mouse than me, the driver and support software for that mouse (allowing for the better resolution) would possibly give you an advantage. Now you just have to argue about what they consider an external "program".

They'll probably just get you for something like the old aimbots (whatever an equiv would be for this type of game). Maybe if a program allowed Assassins to do their skill combos perfectly, then someone would get banned. Not for a keyboard, though.. Use some sense people.

I don't recall reading ANet's explicit answer to this in any user forum, but I have read NCSoft Supports answer (which is also GW support) to this. There is a big big difference between programmable gaming keyboards and third party software programs.

Third party software (that is not written and distributed by NCSoft or it's subsidiary companies) whether it is "macro" or fully automated bot programs is strictly forbidden and will result in a permanent banning of the user account and any associated email addresses and credit cards associated with the acount.

Gaming Pads/Keyboards (which I can't remember the models of since I don't own one) are not considered a violation of the EULA/ToS. These are keyboards/pads like fgarvins. They have keys on them where you can program your function keys and/or a series of keystrokes. Technically that is what the traditional definition of a macro is.

Whether ANet has adopted another sub-policy on this or goes by it's parents definition isn't very clear to me. I would think they would have the same policy. I think Cyber hit a nail on the head. It would be very bad publicity to ban people for using a gaming pad without the whole industry making the same move all at once.

Personally I don't think this game is affected by keyboards as others and I wouldn't be opposed to players using them. Third party software on the othe r hand just pisses me off and I have no toleration for that. I have been on the recieving end of that in other games and it gives an insane advantage over the honest player.

Tainek · Jan 30, 2006, 02:02 AM // 02:02

"Third party software (that is not written and distributed by NCSoft or it's subsidiary companies) whether it is "macro" or fully automated bot programs is strictly forbidden and will result in a permanent banning of the user account and any associated email addresses and credit cards associated with the acount.

Gaming Pads/Keyboards (which I can't remember the models of since I don't own one) are not considered a violation of the EULA/ToS."

But why the difference? , a fully automate bot program is obvious, but think of it this way

if i have a hardware keyboard, that lets me make macros (and lets face it, theyre macros), i have paid 30 quid for somthing to give me an edge, why shouldnt you be allowed to use macro maker to Achieve the same. BOTH can be used for abuse, i could for example, program one that sets 4 traps for 30 seconds in the correct order, with EITHER a program of a keyboard

chris_nin00 · Jan 30, 2006, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Lionmaster

if you have the password thing after the filename, can you also have the fps thing after it? if so, how?

Add -perf

Other Macroing news,
15,000 runescape users were banned on the 19th of January 2006 because of macroing. Which is considered cheating in runescapes eyes.

Tainek · Jan 30, 2006, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris_nin00

Add -perf

Other Macroing news,
15,000 runescape users were banned on the 19th of January 2006 because of macroing. Which is considered cheating in runescapes eyes.

Wow , Owned- i wonder how many were using hardware (mx15 etc)

CyberNigma · Jan 30, 2006, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Tank you Fyre Brand for finding that :-)

Tainek, you bring up a good point too. I think that's where the human factor comes in. Perhaps there is some kind of appeal process to them where they will take that into consideration. However, seeing the large numbers of monks in int'l augury, I imagine they have been walking on the side of caution this whole time. Regardless, I doubt the banning system is automated. They probably have people looking over the data before they ban someone, just to make sure.

I think ANet deserves more credit for that then they usually get. Yeah, its tru e farmers get hurt more than the botters it seems, but I think they have been trying to avoid banning legitimate people. They also keep saying that they are gathering information and will band them eventually. If you look at a player and a bot over time, I imagine that is where you will see a difference. Even a player that is using a keyboard with macros built into its software will eventually start doing something else (playing with friends, chatting, arguing, yelling n00b, etc) which will differentiate them from a bot. It probably just takes time.

By categorically disallowing macros in the sense that they have, they have shielded themselves from complaints by people who are using long macros and acting just as a bot, but technically being a person and not an automated program doing it. However, I would also suspect that the simpler macros would be a flagging factor in something like PvP where things are more competitive between people and those advantages really show up.

Ichabod The Ranger · Jan 30, 2006, 02:49 AM // 02:49

I think it only works for one account as ther's only one GW.exe on your computer no?
And really great login tip, thx alot.

CyberNigma · Jan 30, 2006, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tainek

Wow , Owned- i wonder how many were using hardware (mx15 etc)

Yeah, I read their website after that was posted, and it appears that they are doing something like WoW. This means they can probably see that you are running so-and-so program along with the game. I doubt anyone got banned because of hardware. Its more likely people with gaming keyboards may have been banned while using other, more malign software (which showed up just a bit below runescape's site in a google query), but not as a result of the keyboard itself (and the software that goes with it). They probably just banned everyone running one of the identified programs.

The funny thing is it looks like they are going to ban the 'real' accounts that some of the throw-away accounts used to store their goodies in :-)

EDIT:
Shiznit...

You know Guru is going down hill when they make people like me a 'Citizen'...

Manic Smile · Jan 30, 2006, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tainek

well thought out post here

my main question is that:

if i wanted to catch a botter i would do the following:

Write a program which logs the times of certain actions, so for example, if i use dual shot and penetrating attack one after the other constantly, there will be different response times, following up dual shot after the previous attack might take me 63 milliseconds, then 67, then 86, then 32 , humans cannot do 60, 60 , 60 BUT a macro will (as that is all it can do, what its been told to)

so i would make a program , that measures reaction time, it would log me over 10 mins, and then say, EVERY SINGLE Pen>dual>pen>dual has had the same timings, this is a bot

now thats fine, but what if i have one that does D-30-a-30-n-30-c-30-e-30enter? that program would catch me out, and flag me as a botter

prehaps im just being anal about it, but i just want to know anets opinion on it

sorry I could write code to do exactly what you just said

there's this big story about how search engines(or spam guys or some such) are about to do just this thing on a massive scale and the repercussions this could have...

Manic Smile · Jan 30, 2006, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichabod The Ranger

I think it only works for one account as ther's only one GW.exe on your computer no?
And really great login tip, thx alot.

make two shortcuts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuoba Hturt Eht

"F:\Program Files\Guild Wars\Gw.exe" -password=insertpasswordhere

You won't need to enter your password when you run Guild Wars
When you press F12 and log out, you will be brought back to the character selection screen.

is there a way to set login name i.e.

-login=Manic Smile -password=^%$*&^

CyberNigma · Jan 30, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

make two shortcuts?

is there a way to set login name i.e.

-login=Manic Smile -password=^%$*&^

Crap! I thought I was pretty clever in using that password.. Guess I'll have to change it..