Curse

Phades · Nov 18, 2005, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zakarr

I have a bit strange feeling that improved AI has also something to do with Chapter 2 assassin if she has mind skills. She could manipulate AI not to sense danger for example they won't feel from AoE or something. Don't know how those mind skills would work in PvP. Just a thought.

I like that idea, even though it sounds kinda mesmer-ish. Have it fit into pvp as well and you would have a winner of a skill probably.

aron searle · Nov 18, 2005, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Im all for making the monsters Uber hard and intelligent, but the drops should also represent that, make killing them in teams worth it and a REAL challenge.

Tactical-Dillusions · Nov 18, 2005, 09:28 AM // 09:28

You are basically suggesting that all hexes should do 1 thing - make the enemy stop it's actions.
Every single hex will have the exact same effect and the game would die a painful death.

aron searle · Nov 18, 2005, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions

You are basically suggesting that all hexes should do 1 thing - make the enemy stop it's actions.
Every single hex will have the exact same effect and the game would die a painful death.

Thats a good point.

Hockster · Nov 18, 2005, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions

Every single hex will have the exact same effect and the game would die a painful death.

That's already happening. Maybe I'm just imagining it, but I'm noticing a definate decrease in players in the major areas.

Numa Pompilius · Nov 18, 2005, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightwish

Interrupting/distracting shot by Jade Bows

Lots of ranger-type mobs interrupt. Try a long cast while fighting stone summit scouts, for instance.
My mesmer came up against the perfected armor in Thunderhead back when the ranger interrupts were broken, and it wasn't pretty (I don't remember what interrupts the armor used, but it kept my mesmer and usually also Mhenlo permanently interrupted, and henches alone really can't take down a boss). Luckily the next time I got the monk boss, and my mesmer eats monk bosses for breakfast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

If that level 28 axe stops attacking when Spiteful Spirit is casted on him, then I want the ability to get some 120AL armor, or an attribute 20 heal to mitigate the 250 point bonks ion the head.

If the level 28 aatxe isn't attacking, you're not getting an awful lot of 250 damage bonks on the head either.

Oh, and in ring of fire - if you're taking an all-hench team, ignor the viziers advice and go in through the front door. It is far easier than taking the lava-with-imps sneakway due to the henches inability to notice that they are on fire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

That's already happening. Maybe I'm just imagining it, but I'm noticing a definate decrease in players in the major areas.

Perhaps you're right, but people have been saying that since at least June, and AFAI can tell Ascalon still has on average 7-8 English speaking districts here in the EU, same as it had one month after release.

lishi · Nov 18, 2005, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Lots of ranger-type mobs interrupt. Try a long cast while fighting stone summit scouts, for instance.
My mesmer came up against the perfected armor in Thunderhead back when the ranger interrupts were broken, and it wasn't pretty (I don't remember what interrupts the armor used, but it kept my mesmer and usually also Mhenlo permanently interrupted, and henches alone really can't take down a boss). Luckily the next time I got the monk boss, and my mesmer eats monk bosses for breakfast.

If the level 28 aatxe isn't attacking, you're not getting an awful lot of 250 damage bonks on the head either.

Oh, and in ring of fire - if you're taking an all-hench team, ignor the viziers advice and go in through the front door. It is far easier than taking the lava-with-imps sneakway due to the henches inability to notice that they are on fire.

Perhaps you're right, but people have been saying that since at least June, and AFAI can tell Ascalon still has on average 7-8 English speaking districts here in the EU, same as it had one month after release.

yesterday i got on LA european 1 near 1 AM GMT +1 , they used to be a lot of trader , now it was half emphy, i cant even bought 200 wood :\

Pyrii · Nov 18, 2005, 10:35 AM // 10:35

I think there should be a proper tactical ackbone for AI first, I keep thinking a system like dungeon seige where you can dictate formation and stances to your henchies to tell them to stand back or attack on sight etc. Just like we tend to dictate during PuGs on PvE.

Telling alesia to get the f*** back can only be an up.

Also, AoE should be tactical decisions, I normally have to tell a group to fall back from an AoE. And I thinkt he same should be for enemies, if they're just a couple of lone minions then maybe they won't fall back from an AoE, but if they have a boss or a large group they might. And I use the words MIGHT, not just "IF (AoE spell cast) THEN run();" But maybe run if they're low on health or if it's seriously damaging.

Hockster · Nov 18, 2005, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

If the level 28 aatxe isn't attacking, you're not getting an awful lot of 250 damage bonks on the head either.

But once empathy wears off it's still me(us) against him, and 4X the strength. At that point as we're having the stare down, some silly ele will cast meteor shower and cause the axe to run towards all the casters. The new AI kicks in and the Axe is thinking, "hmm, there's the SOB that empathied me." *slap* :Oh look, the monk with SoJ", expired of course. *slap* Looks back at me "aha, youre the one that scratched my nose with that level 12 100 blades, bite the pillow bitch, I'm taking the dirt road this time." *slap slap slap*

You're party has been defeated.

Click here to return to the outpost rightfully shamed by superior AI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Perhaps you're right, but people have been saying that since at least June, and AFAI can tell Ascalon still has on average 7-8 English speaking districts here in the EU, same as it had one month after release.

It seems LA is virtually empty when I'm there. Dist 1 and 2 are still full of sellers, but by 3 it's usually me and a couple Korean guys. And no, I don't want to buy for 15K ok.

Numa Pompilius · Nov 18, 2005, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

It seems LA is virtually empty when I'm there. Dist 1 and 2 are still full of sellers, but by 3 it's usually me and a couple Korean guys. And no, I don't want to buy for 15K ok.

Yeah, I can't deny it seems there are fewer on the servers to me now too. Still, I don't know, perhaps they're more spread out, or doing PvP. I'd love to see some statistics, but ANet's unlikely to release any, *especially* if player count is dropping.

I started a new avatar a few days ago, and fwiw there were still plenty of beginners in pre-sear. Plus it seems many of the people playing GW for the socializing hangs out in pre-sear.

Well, hell, I don't know.

EDIT: if player numbers ARE dropping enough that ANet/NCsoft are getting worried about it, I'd expect them to release a public demo. Like the 10 hour ATI demo, but open to everyone. We'll see what happens when the ATI license expires on the 30th.

Roza · Nov 18, 2005, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Yeah, I can't deny it seems there are fewer on the servers to me now too. Still, I don't know, perhaps they're more spread out, or doing PvP. I'd love to see some statistics, but ANet's unlikely to release any, *especially* if player count is dropping

.

Well, one would expect the amount of players online to have dropped by now anyway, at least in the US. After all, the game has been out for quite a while now. Most of people to whom this game appeals will have bought it by now and have had plenty of time to play it. And once you have done pretty much all there is to do in pve, it will eventually start to bore you a little if you play a lot. For those who have moved on to (or started out with) PvP, they game will get boring less quickly (but still it will get boring for them at some point, depending on how much they like it and if they find the opportunity to advance in pvp). I expect that whether you will or will not keep playing regularly until the release of the expansion will be determined to a large degree on whether or not you are in an active, nice guild or have friends in the game that stay active. The amount of districts in Lion's does not tell you everything, or course. I spend a lot more time chatting in our Guild hall than I spend in Lion's. But fewer players online until the release of the next chapter does not mean a dead game.

Sorry for getting off-topic here. Better and especially more diverse AI would be excellent, I think, especially for the new monsters in the next chapter. If this makes the game harder. then Anet can simply adjust the amount of creatures in a particular area so as to keep it playable.

Of course, people will find ways to exploit the AI. That is pretty much the case with any game. But this is how it should be. That is how you are supposed to fight opponents, isn't it? Especially if they are stronger or outnumber you. This is true for pvp as well. You want to exploit the enemy's weaknesses. Covering your own and finding and exploiting their's is what pvp is all about, really (and waiting for an hour to find a group if you are not rank 6, of course.

)

aron searle · Nov 18, 2005, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roza

.

I expect that whether you will or will not keep playing regularly until the release of the expansion will be determined to a large degree on whether or not you are in an active, nice guild or have friends in the game that stay active.

Very true

Phades · Nov 18, 2005, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

You're party has been defeated.

Click here to return to the outpost rightfully shamed by superior AI.

Nah, it should keep a tally and have an announcer voice like Unreal tournament and say things like K.O., devs win or Flawless victory, with some crunching and ripping sounds, maybe a little screaming followed by fatality. Could even have one person's connection get killed at that point. Then when you go back and try it again, it would show the #of attempts like round 762, Fight!. Make a really big and overdone production with it too, just to rub in how much we suck at their game n stuff, er yeah thats it.

Raptox · Nov 18, 2005, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

So then I want the ability to select what skills and weapons my henchies use. Having a party formation selecton would be nice too. As much as I detest Alesia, I don't want her in the front of my group. I need someone to run into the poison water/lava pit to rez Stefan after he chased an enemy into who was running for the hills to get away from Orions awesomely powerful Firestorm that would kill an entire zone in one cast.

Hockster wins the thread.

Hardest part of Villainy of Galrath? Keeping the idiot brigade out of the poison swamps in the beginning of Kessex Peak.

Furthermore, I've always questioned the need for Mhenlo and Lina to run ahead of me, into the entire enemy group, in order to cast a healing spell on me. STAY IN THE BACK! YOU ARE SQUISHY!

Yamat · Nov 18, 2005, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roza

Yep, some should be smart, some should be stupid. Not all the same. And the ai should have imperfect reactions too, for interupts, for example.

That is key... you can't have AI interrupting you in 0.25 seconds because it's machine driven...

While we're at it, please add some henchie commands:

/follow
/attack
/stay

Age · Nov 18, 2005, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roza

Very good idea. However, I think this should be different for different creatures. I can't see a sage (supposedly ancient and wise) casting itself to death when backfired. I can see a beserking Ettin, Troll, Grawl or Minotaur completely ignoring empathy easily.

Different AI/behavour for different creatures is the best way forward for PvE, I think. This would make getting to know different creatures and finding their weaknesses more interesting (npc's might even be added with bits of lore about your opponents). After all, finding a way to exploit the weaknesses of your mirror at Ascension is one of the more interesting pve experiences, for most players, especially if it is their first time and they have not read a guide or something.

A large diversity of behavioral patterns might be a lot of fun. Imagine imps always running away from warriors and retreating when outnumbered (being somewhat cowardly), ettins standing still or walking around in some random direction if a ranger is firing at them from a distance, taking them a moment to spot where the arrows are coming from, undead relentlessly attacking any monk they see. Lizards hiding under the surface of a lake or stream, perhaps using stealth/assassin-like skills, different monsters having different agro ranges, not always charing in directly but grouping together, etc. So many options. Some of those will make the game harder. But pve needs to be a bit harder anyway, not by just adding bigger, tougher and more monsters (like with the titan-missions) or just adding monks, mesmers, etc to any group of monsters, making every battle seem like a tombs battle with less intelligent opponents (not that there is anything wrong with that, but not all pve fighting should be that way).

Of course, more diversity in behaviour, including weaknesses will make it it a bit easier for farm 'specialists' to exploit these. But players have been doing that anyway, but with a generic strategy for all melee creatures with good drops. However, making the PvE part of the game more interesting should have priority over combating farming (if that is what Anet was trying to do with the recent updates).

Anyway, so many options. I do hope will overcome the design issues relating to AI that they mentioned and open up this large range of possibilities.

The only problem with this is the Tomps is fairly balanced in numbers with 8 on each side and playing with henchies who don't have the best set of skills on them won't work unles they are given completly set of skills and to level them up to the same level all the foes are so instead of seeing level 17 in the desert you see level 20s like yourself which they should be anyway 3 hits with Hydra they reach max dp.I like Id of the OP but not just for mesmers.

Loch · Nov 19, 2005, 12:12 AM // 00:12

The AI change could work if it was balanced well. Obviously, enemies shouldn't have an automatic reaction to it; it should take them about 1-1.5 seconds to recognize the hex, sort of like how they recognize AoE's now. From there, they could sometimes attack/cast through the hex, or simply flee for a bit, depending on the situation, strength of the hex, and type of mob.

I think this kind of thing would really bring out the true use of the hexes. As it stands, most of the time these hexes are considered unconditional damage against the right foe. We all know that Mesmers prefer more sophisticated methods of dealing with trouble than simple damage.

Roza · Nov 19, 2005, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

As it stands, most of the time these hexes are considered unconditional damage against the right foe. We all know that Mesmers prefer more sophisticated methods of dealing with trouble than simple damage.

Yep, mesmers like to present people with a dilema: you cast, you take XXX damage, you don't, you lose energy, xxx health due to life drain, etc. I would like to see differrent responses to this. Same thing for skills such as gladiator defense. And all skills really.

Aracos79 · Nov 19, 2005, 04:28 AM // 04:28

One thing to keep in mind though when we're talking about further enhancing the AI, and if someone already mentioned this my apologies... the AI already has MANY advantages over us. In the high level zones, the mobs are ALWAYS higher level than us. They have greater damage dealing ability, more armor, and faster reflexes. If you add a human-like adaptability to those factors... you may end up with something more than an 8-player group can handle.

Loch · Nov 19, 2005, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

If you add a human-like adaptability to those factors... you may end up with something more than an 8-player group can handle.

In a way, this can happen. However, choosing to flee may actually give the human team the advantage they need. If you Backfired a Mursaat Elementalist, then it ran away, wouldn't that make it easier to kill the rest of the group before the hex victim returned? It would also make things easy if the Elementalist decided to cast through it, since it would practically kill itself doing so. That's exactly what these hexes should be for; the dilemma that Roza pointed out.

I see what you mean though. Mobs shouldn't have ungodly decision-making skills if they already have a strength and number advantage over human teams.