Curse

Theos · Mar 28, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

Well you still didn't give me an approved list of builds you'd like me to run. With 75 skills per profession that shouldn't be too hard. I'll even narrow it down for you... Necro primary and Warrior/Monk/Mesmer secondary. I'll even let you pick from the Elementalist line too.

You know, you shot yourself in the foot by giving all those possibilities for profesions. Try running something thats a bit outside the box, like curse/water. Or hell why not something old like N/W, those used to be popular. If you are really incapable of creating a new build out of the possible 375 skills you have... you have serious issues with creativity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

Also, what would you have me do with my 3rd character that's finished all the missions and quests? I see my options as the following:

PvP - done that and still do. All skills are unlocked as are all items.
Repeat PvE content/missions - on a 3rd character I've had enough.
Help out guildies - I do that constantly and that's fine. I even give them items and plat.
Farm - make money so I can equip my current characters with the best stuff and have some extra cash for my new Factions characters.
Running - I guess I could roll a warrior and run around Tyria for payment/tips. (Is this an exploit in your book?)
Roleplay - absolutely uninteresting to me.

Did I miss anything? I don't think so, but I do think you're missing one important thing: ArenaNet likes human farmers because they are all that's keeping Prophecies PvE going. That and a small trickle of new players.

Seems like you finished Prophecies campaign to me. At a certain point you don't get the right to complain about lack of things to do... you know that right? No movie lasts forever, do you whine when a movie ends? Seriously I want to know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

Lastly, you're correct. I don't want this game mechanic changed. It's added to the enjoyment of the game for me and a lot of other people. I think there are plenty of people like me who have grown tired of the PvP options in Prophecies and are 3x done with the PvE content. Making cash is all that's left. ArenaNet doesn't want to lose me and all of those like me. Otherwise they would have shut down SF/UW/FoW/UW2 farming immediately.

I suggest you spend your energy elsewhere. Maybe doing the things you enjoy instead of complaining about and criticizing what other people are doing/enjoying?

You sir, have tunnel vision. How can something as mind numbing as gear tanking make the game fun? Are you one of those people who laugh and giggle at large numbers? UW2 is not an AI exploit, last I checked there was no AI explioting done by cramming so many things into a small corridor that nothing moved and became easy targets. Thats ingenuity. As for the book trick/gear trick, which applies to FoW and SF... now thats just AI exploiting there is no ingenuity as everyone has known about this since ever. Its just people being Inert as always, afraid of what change might bring. As for UW... what does that have to do with anything? Beyond SS AI exploitation there... oh right SS exploitation.

Boy I see alot of exploitation... hum...

Skie_M · Mar 28, 2006, 05:59 PM // 17:59

People will always take advantage of anything that gives them control over a situation or some other game effect that skews the odds in their favor. This is human nature. Protecting your rights concerning using these loopholes is also human nature, as is decrying the exploitation of these loopholes by others. An objective outlook is what is really useful in these instances, rather than a subjective or personal outlook.

There are many places in the game where people can take advantage of a game mechanic in order to give themselves better odds at success... and there will always be such places. It would probably be best to remove this particular game mechanic, however, because it severely cripples an entire character profession. This is obviously not intentionally designed into the game, and many of the game developers were also surprised at the results that were produced. All I can say is that this particular effect will probably be going into revision soon, and we can expect some changes for the better at some point in the future.

MelechRic · Mar 28, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Eudas:

One thing you should note when you tell me to try another game is that you're the one (among others) that's complaining about the game's mechanics. I've said that the mechanics actually give me immense enjoyment and provide some longevity of play for me. I think you're arguing in the opposite direction so maybe you should try some other game.

Theos:

I'm not incapable of creating a new build. I can run anything you want me to in PvP and play it very competitively. I don't see how I shot myself in the foot by asking for him to give me a build he thinks is suitable for my enjoyment. Since he's acting like the PvE build police then he should at least give a list of approved builds for PvE. Your comment makes no sense or at least entirely misses the context of my argument.

Also, I'm not the one who's whining in this thread. I actually think the game is fine with the gear/book/barrel tactic. I've stated that I don't think urns should hold aggro (even though I think it's premature to call for changes before the Factions campaign is released). I'd like to congratulate you on your nice attempt to paint me as a whining person. You make up some story about me whining at the end of a movie and then attribute it to me. Another indirect form of attack and a logical error too. Keep up the good work.

Funny, I don't recall saying gear tanking was fun. I simply stated that farming has allowed me to buy a lot of gear and that has made the game more enjoyable. You've made a logical leap and put words in my mouth. Tsk tsk.

As for your analysis of UW2 AI. You are wrong. It is an AI exploit to crowd monsters into a hallway and blow the hell out of them with barrage. If the AI were on the level of human intelligence then the monsters would avoid fighting in that area. The fact that the AI fails to realize this and that players use it to their advantage should make it an exploit under your definition. How is this different:

1. Hold gear and AI only attacks the weak/unamred player.
2. Draw aggro with runner/puller and get AI to cram into a hall way where minions block it. AI fails to see the danger.

Your definiition is too broad to be at all useful in an argument.

calamitykell · Mar 28, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23

MelechRic:

You enjoy the game's mechanics because it makes it easy as hell for you and requires little effort. If the gear/book trick didn't exist, would you be complaining? Probably not. But it does, and it means you don't have to actually THINK, so you enjoy it.

Also, you are complaining about how "I beat the game, and there's nothing left to do." This isn't a traditional MMO, once you beat the game, it's time to move on to another game, or play the competitive multiplayer. It's your fault for playing the game so much that you got bored. Making it easier for you so you can be half asleep while farming does not add to the fun of the game. It makes it easier. Since that seems to be the aspect of it you TRULY enjoy, I say please go elsewhere. God knows what else you'd like in Guild Wars to be made EASIER.

MelechRic · Mar 28, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

MelechRic:

You enjoy the game's mechanics because it makes it easy as hell for you and requires little effort. If the gear/book trick didn't exist, would you be complaining? Probably not. But it does, and it means you don't have to actually THINK, so you enjoy it.

Also, you are complaining about how "I beat the game, and there's nothing left to do." This isn't a traditional MMO, once you beat the game, it's time to move on to another game, or play the competitive multiplayer. It's your fault for playing the game so much that you got bored. Making it easier for you so you can be half asleep while farming does not add to the fun of the game. It makes it easier. Since that seems to be the aspect of it you TRULY enjoy, I say please go elsewhere. God knows what else you'd like in Guild Wars to be made EASIER.

I enjoy the game very much thanks. I also played the entire game through as a ranger and monk without doing any farming. I've experienced difficult missions in this game and enjoyed them immensely. Now I've got a farmer and I _still_ enjoy the game.

You are free to play it in whatever manner makes it most difficult if that's what you enjoy. I recommend that you do this since it seems to be your goal.

It's funny that you try and characterize me as someone who enjoys doing mindless things. I don't at all. I'm an engineer so I'm paid to think about difficult problems and provide mutliple solutions to them. I play Guildwars for entertainment and I do derive enjoyment out of PvE and PvP aspects of the game. I don't farm to the exclusion of all other things. In fact this weekend I split my time 50/50 between PvE and PvP in the Factions preview.

It's not my fault for playing the PvE so much that I got bored. The game has been out a full year. I've brought three characters through it all and now I've found something else to do. You are the one with the problem. You can't stand to see something in a game that violates your high minded ideal of what the game _should be_ so you aggitate for a change. I'd say it's time for you to move on if you're so dissatisfied.

Sorafolktale · Mar 28, 2006, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

That goes for you too you know. Instead of complaining that something's not fair or needs changing because you dislike it you're also capapble of going somewhere else. Vote with your feet!

If you're not finished then I fail to see the point of your posting to this thread? How is my farming SF affecting your low level character?

Ow really really funny what u said : so if u too dislike the fix on holding item bug, then u too can go somewhere else. And the point here is the fact that EVERY area on game will be as SF for gear trick. I just ask u to THINK. its not hard to figure. I do farm uw with my 55 or my SS, so what ? not in question here.

U say about others not making a good point to defend the fix / exploit, but u too havent prove fairly what ure telling all times.
Ow and yes, theres more than farming left. my necro for example is almost getting all skills in game, but ill need more time when factions comes, for lots of more skills. xp gaining not exactly farming, since i can get xp for missions / farm / quests etc.
And as for low level characters, hmm no. mine arent low level.
and i still got things to do in pve.

think for example, if MM skills like animate bone horror or fiend skills triggers te mobs on u. tell me, how would u play as MM ? Or even SS triggered. explanation from mobs : "minions are too dangerous lets kill necro to prevent, at all costs" . u wouldnt fell thats unfair ? that it was not right ?
Thats what happening to rt.
lack of mob ai is visible now.
If this dont make u think about it, then I'm really sorry for u.

ome more thing: u defend so much gear trick, why? just that makes u farm more fast ?

This is a good example for dumb AI for book: on fow , in the spider cave, in the waterfall, it spawns more than 20 spider, adn guess what? all of then attacks the brilliant tank book holder. explain me the gameplay here.
It is "heal tank"+"heal tank"+"heal tank"+"heal tank", resumes to that ?
i want to read ur answer.
imagine a rt there that uses the -% cost urn or the +energy one.
owned really fast.
U would ignore an entire line of skills of ur favorite class and be fine with that, because it agroo everything to u and u normally die when that happens ?
As for everyone, just because it has little impact on pvp, u can ignore the bug on pve? really really funny to say that.

Theos · Mar 28, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Cramming the hallways with bodies is like body blocking, last I checked a very viable tactic. If they were to make the AI that smart (by which I mean able to pull back and spread the blockade thin) PvE would begin to own half the playerbase in it. I doubt anyone wants this, and last I checked those little ghouls do get through the blockade at which point OTHER skills are used to make them less effective. I see no AI exploitation, I see strategy. Its also far more variable and planning dependant than gear tanks.

MelechRic · Mar 28, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Sorafolktale, if you could translate your post into English I'll try and make a response. Paragraphs and complete sentences would be nice too.

MelechRic · Mar 28, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theos

Cramming the hallways with bodies is like body blocking, last I checked a very viable tactic. If they were to make the AI that smart (by which I mean able to pull back and spread the blockade thin) PvE would begin to own half the playerbase in it. I doubt anyone wants this, and last I checked those little ghouls do get through the blockade at which point OTHER skills are used to make them less effective. I see no AI exploitation, I see strategy. Its also far more variable and planning dependant than gear tanks.

Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to

I like watching you do circles with your logic. Aren't you with the crowd that's agitating for an AI fix to provide more challenge? If so then you wouldn't have a problem with the AI "owning" half the playerbase. Or is there another agenda you have? Maybe a farming nerf because you don't like people making money hand over fist?

Ghull Ka · Mar 28, 2006, 06:53 PM // 18:53

I keep coming back to this thread to see other people's responses to the "Urn Situation", trying to gauge the outcry, and keep the torches lit for the whole debacle. All I'm seeing now are people arguing with MelechRic.

I know that the only real voice that I have is to email ANet support and perhaps address this issue as a bug. Maybe if I can open a dialogue with one of the developers, this issue will get some attention. Online petitions don't get anything done, and arguing about whether or not MelechRic should quit GW (and watching him do the "debate team" thing with everyone who addresses him) doesn't get anything done.

Two things sum up the whole issue:

I don't want my 60-AL Ritualist to be targeted by EVERY mob nearby, to the complete exclusion of all other potential targets these mobs may have, and then summarily massacred every time she conjures ashes.

I don't want the entire PvE experience to degrade to 5 man Ash Tank farming in every wilderness area and mission.

That's not too much to ask, I don't think.

Theos · Mar 28, 2006, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to

I like watching you do circles with your logic. Aren't you with the crowd that's agitating for an AI fix to provide more challenge? If so then you wouldn't have a problem with the AI "owning" half the playerbase. Or is there another agenda you have? Maybe a farming nerf because you don't like people making money hand over fist?

Circle? I see no circles? AI owning half the playerbase would be counter productive in all respects. I for one enjoy playing with other people. My agenda is to remove brain dead exploitation from the game, nothing more. I would like challenge in PvE but I also do not want to remove half the people playing.

I don't care about farming, legitimate brain requiring farming that is. Kegs and 55 monks and even some WaMo builds require so little cognitive function that a monkey could do it by simply smashing buttons. This is what I don't want. Something wrong with it?

Sorafolktale · Mar 28, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

Sorafolktale, if you could translate your post into English I'll try and make a response. Paragraphs and complete sentences would be nice too.

Really ? Then i say "Sorry for my mistakes".
yes, my english inst so good.Its not my primary language, but im pretty sure most ppl can read and understand what i posted. if not, tell me.
Again, sorry for spelling errors, or incomplete sentences.
But this doesn't means that u can say it like that. [about translate into english]
If u can understand this, then it proves that im not that dump writting in english

Peço desculpas se não fui claro o suficiente. =)

Jeremy Untouchable · Mar 28, 2006, 07:23 PM // 19:23

I don't care about farming, legitimate brain requiring farming that is. Kegs and 55 monks and even some WaMo builds require so little cognitive function that a monkey could do it by simply smashing buttons. This is what I don't want. Something wrong with it?[/QUOTE]

55 monks arnt that easy to farm with. try things that interupt you knock you down. If it was so easy then everyone would do it. And just how many really good 55 monks are there? Most just farm griffions and minos and then rezone, Try clearing talus, (except for the mobs with mesmers)with a button smashing monkey. EDIT: allso i have to say i agree with the necro about everything (except dudes english skills) right on, and farm away

MelechRic · Mar 28, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy untouchable

I don't care about farming, legitimate brain requiring farming that is. Kegs and 55 monks and even some WaMo builds require so little cognitive function that a monkey could do it by simply smashing buttons. This is what I don't want. Something wrong with it?

55 monks arnt that easy to farm with. try things that interupt you knock you down. If it was so easy then everyone would do it. And just how many really good 55 monks are there? Most just farm griffions and minos and then rezone, Try clearing talus, (except for the mobs with mesmers)with a button smashing monkey.

Everyone has their little 55hp farming build they don't want to see nerfed. Even you. Tell you what. I'll give up my gear farming if ANet makes it so that spells work on what your maximum HP would be WITHOUT any superior runes applied. Deal?

MelechRic · Mar 28, 2006, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theos

Circle? I see no circles? AI owning half the playerbase would be counter productive in all respects. I for one enjoy playing with other people. My agenda is to remove brain dead exploitation from the game, nothing more. I would like challenge in PvE but I also do not want to remove half the people playing.

I don't care about farming, legitimate brain requiring farming that is. Kegs and 55 monks and even some WaMo builds require so little cognitive function that a monkey could do it by simply smashing buttons. This is what I don't want. Something wrong with it?

Yes. You want your ideal to be my ideal. I don't like that and won't accept it. You're free to play however you want and should afford others the same respect. Otherwise you're just acting like a tyrant.

Skie_M · Mar 28, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sorafolktale

Ow really really funny what u said : so if u too dislike the fix on holding item bug, then u too can go somewhere else. And the point here is the fact that EVERY area on game will be as SF for gear trick. I just ask u to THINK. its not hard to figure. I do farm uw with my 55 or my SS, so what ? not in question here.

U say about others not making a good point to defend the fix / exploit, but u too havent prove fairly what ure telling all times.
Ow and yes, theres more than farming left. my necro for example is almost getting all skills in game, but ill need more time when factions comes, for lots of more skills. xp gaining not exactly farming, since i can get xp for missions / farm / quests etc.
And as for low level characters, hmm no. mine arent low level.
and i still got things to do in pve.

think for example, if MM skills like animate bone horror or fiend skills triggers te mobs on u. tell me, how would u play as MM ? Or even SS triggered. explanation from mobs : "minions are too dangerous lets kill necro to prevent, at all costs" . u wouldnt fell thats unfair ? that it was not right ?
Thats what happening to rt.
lack of mob ai is visible now.
If this dont make u think about it, then I'm really sorry for u.

ome more thing: u defend so much gear trick, why? just that makes u farm more fast ?

This is a good example for dumb AI for book: on fow , in the spider cave, in the waterfall, it spawns more than 20 spider, adn guess what? all of then attacks the brilliant tank book holder. explain me the gameplay here.
It is "heal tank"+"heal tank"+"heal tank"+"heal tank", resumes to that ?
i want to read ur answer.
imagine a rt there that uses the -% cost urn or the +energy one.
owned really fast.
U would ignore an entire line of skills of ur favorite class and be fine with that, because it agroo everything to u and u normally die when that happens ?
As for everyone, just because it has little impact on pvp, u can ignore the bug on pve? really really funny to say that.

Oh, that's a really funny thing you said: If you don't like the fix on the "item holding" bug, you can go somewhere else too. The point here is that EVERY area of the game will be farmable with the "SF Gear Trick". I'm just asking you to THINK... it's not hard to figure out. I also farm UW with my 55 monk or SS nec, so what?? That's not the issue here.

You say that others are not making valid points about how to defend or fix the exploit, but you haven't fairly proved your own points either. Oh, and yes, there's more than just farming left. My necro, for example, is close to getting all the skills in the game, but I'll need more time when Factions comes, for the additional skills. Experience gain is not the same as item farming, since you can gain experience from missions/quests and item farming. As for low level characters... I have none, but I still have things to do in PvE.

Think about this, for example: If Minion Master skills like Animate Bone Horror/Fiends triggered the monsters to attack you to the exclusion of all else, how would you play that type of character? Or if Spiteful Spirit triggered such an attack? A simple explaination would be that the monsters would feel that your character is far too dangerous to them, so let's kill you first at all costs. Would you not feel that it is unfair? Would you not feel that it just isn't right? This is what's happenning to the Ritualist class. The lack of a seriously programmed monster AI is very visible now. If this doesn't make you think about it, then I feel sorry for you.

One more thing: You defend the gear trick a lot ... why? Because you farm faster with it?

This is a good example for the dumb monster AI on the Book in FoW: In the waterfall of the spider cave, more than 20 spiders spawn. Guess what? They all attack the brillian tank who is also the book holder. Can you explain the "gameplay" here? It's just "heal tank + heal tank + heal tank + heal tank". Can you reply to this and tell me what makes it so interesting? I would like to see your answer.

Imagine a Ritualist there, using the -% energy cost urn or the + energy per cast urn ... He would be owned in seconds.

You seem to want to ignore an entire line of skills in your favorite class, because it aggros everything in sight and you die within seconds. As for everybody else ... Just because it has little impact on PvP, you can ignore that kind of thing in PvE ?? How very funny of you to say that...

Ok ... it's translated .. I agree with some of his/her sentiments and arguements, and I am also patiently waiting for your reply. It does not take much effort to get the gist of what someone is saying, even if it is in broken english or not phrased properly. Try not to put down an intelligent person just because they dont speak your language. The GuildWars game is based in an international setting, so expecting everybody to speak/read/write everything fluently in say ... Han`Gul (Korean), for example, is quite rediculous. Have a care for the feelings and knowledge of others, and try to show some understanding once in a while. Who knows? You might even make more friends that way...

Jeremy Untouchable · Mar 28, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

Everyone has their little 55hp farming build they don't want to see nerfed. Even you. Tell you what. I'll give up my gear farming if ANet makes it so that spells work on what your maximum HP would be WITHOUT any superior runes applied. Deal?

Heck no, i allso gear tank with my warrior and enjoy that to, its lots less boring then trying to get a group with a tank anywhere else, plus the thrill of finding greens

MelechRic · Mar 28, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

I keep coming back to this thread to see other people's responses to the "Urn Situation", trying to gauge the outcry, and keep the torches lit for the whole debacle. All I'm seeing now are people arguing with MelechRic.

I know that the only real voice that I have is to email ANet support and perhaps address this issue as a bug. Maybe if I can open a dialogue with one of the developers, this issue will get some attention. Online petitions don't get anything done, and arguing about whether or not MelechRic should quit GW (and watching him do the "debate team" thing with everyone who addresses him) doesn't get anything done.

Two things sum up the whole issue:

I don't want my 60-AL Ritualist to be targeted by EVERY mob nearby, to the complete exclusion of all other potential targets these mobs may have, and then summarily massacred every time she conjures ashes.

I don't want the entire PvE experience to degrade to 5 man Ash Tank farming in every wilderness area and mission.

That's not too much to ask, I don't think.

I guess I'll debate you a bit. As a statement of fact I do think that if the Urn makes the ritualist draw aggro AND that makes the class unplayable then there's room for a modification in the game mechanics. However, I think it's way too early to tell if this is true. Nobody aside from alpha/beta testers has had enough road time with this class to know if it's a true problem. 48 hours of play simply isn't enough time to know.

Lastly, why will the PvE experience be degraded for you by Ash Tank farming? Nobody can answer this question in this entire thread with any clarity. You're free to party with people who feel like you and don't want an ash tank. Your experience isn't ruined by that is it? If I want to run around with a bunch of ash tank people and have fun how is that messing with you?

One last thing... there will always be optimized farming groups in any game. It's basically about 20 developers against 1 million players. The odds are with the playerbase that people will figure out builds that defeat the simple monster AI the developers created.

Sorafolktale · Mar 28, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

They Removed chests from Dreadnought’s Drift and Ice Floe.
To farm those you need to known how to play a good 55 monk build to get there. i've done that run a lot of times; and i can say: 55 monk build inst a brainless one, for mostly places.
And i'm pissed they removed those chests. Now where can a pve player get the rare skin itens, like cristalllyne sword ?

And if spells worked for max hp resgardless of runes, you would mess the elite skill Aura of the Lich [Necromancer one], dont you ? for exemple: if ure with a 55hp build and cast Aura of The Lich, then you would go to 265hp instead of 27hp ? Its not correct.
And would f*** the skills with sacrifice cost.
Yeah, that would mess a lots of necro skills.

edit: and thanks skie_m for translation. yes,sometimes i write bad sentences, but it's interesting because that's the way we type in-game.
I was just not paying attention too [besides my own mistakes].
I'll write more properly from now on.

And a correction :
U would ignore an entire line of skills of ur favorite class and be fine with that, because it agroo everything to u and u normally die when that happens ?

I intented to say this:
Could you ignore an entire line of your favorite class, and still be fine without those missing skills, because they trigger the agroo of every mob in sight to you, and you would normally die as a result of that agroo ?

Ghull Ka · Mar 28, 2006, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

I guess I'll debate you a bit.<snip!>

My opinions are my own, they are not up for debate.