Curse

Sammiel · Jun 15, 2005, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

maybe my extensive technical background makes it easier for me to see this....maybe the fact that it took me 7 hours to break the algorithm used to encrypt the cd-keys for this game....maybe it's the fact that it would take about 45 minutes to write any type of hack/cheat/bot I could possibly think of for this game.......but someone other than Creston has to realize that ArenaNet is fighting a losing battle. They'll never stop the people that want to cheat...there really isn't a reason to try, all they're doing is ruining the game for the people that WANT to play.

Ho ho ho. I call shenanigans. First off, I'd like to know how you cracked the encryption on the GW CD keys since all of the actual key checks are likely done server side. Also I would love to see you code a cheat in 45 minutes. Quite the bold claim. For the record I am a world famous programmer, oncologist, grandmaster chess player, astrophysicist, champion baseball player, warrior king, and nobel prize winning chemist. Its the internet after all.

Creston · Jun 15, 2005, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sammiel

For the record I am a champion baseball player.

Sorry, his name is SammY Sosa. Not Sammiel. Liar!

Creston

Ensign · Jun 15, 2005, 07:16 PM // 19:16

I don't think this is a particularly effective anti-botting measure, really. What this does address is people entering an area and killing only a couple of specific monsters before quitting. It can be bypassed entirely by killing a few irrelevant monsters before getting to the goodies - EG, flattening the Mergoyles in Nebo Terrace before pharming Ettins. You just have to design around the parameters of the problem. The practical effect of this measure is that botting is now some percentage less efficient than it used to be.

Of course a percentage of the goodies a bot gives you is still free loot for nothing.

The big difference, and the major failing of this system, is that bots simply do not care if the first ten monsters in an area do not drop anything, while players do. If I had a bot pharming 30 Flesh Golems, or whatever, and the first ten don't drop, then I'd just look at my returns after X hours of running the bot, see that they're just 2/3 of what they used to be, and shrug at the pharming nerf. But as a player, whenever I enter a new area and see that the first 3 packs don't drop anything at all, that's incredibly frustrating.

So it might be an effective measure to discourage players to pharm, but it certainly doesn't stop bots.

They want people to stop power pharming very specific areas and mobs? Then why did they design the game such that there are several classes of enemies that drop no runes at all, many that drop armors but rarely have runes, and a couple specific enemies in fixed locations that drop tons of runes? Item acquisition is a huge part of this game right now, and if there are large discrepencies in reward per time between different areas, they should expect that people spend their time doing what's the most profitable.

Of course the global pharming nerf doesn't address that discrepency at all, as it nerfed areas no one spent time in as well.

If they want to stop power pharming, they just need to balance out the drops so that if I wanted to get runes, I have options other than pharming specific locations that they haven't caught yet. That's all there is to it.

Peace,
-CxE

hydrak · Jun 15, 2005, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't think this is a particularly effective anti-botting measure, really. What this does address is people entering an area and killing only a couple of specific monsters before quitting. It can be bypassed entirely by killing a few irrelevant monsters before getting to the goodies - EG, flattening the Mergoyles in Nebo Terrace before pharming Ettins. You just have to design around the parameters of the problem. The practical effect of this measure is that botting is now some percentage less efficient than it used to be.

Of course a percentage of the goodies a bot gives you is still free loot for nothing.

The big difference, and the major failing of this system, is that bots simply do not care if the first ten monsters in an area do not drop anything, while players do. If I had a bot pharming 30 Flesh Golems, or whatever, and the first ten don't drop, then I'd just look at my returns after X hours of running the bot, see that they're just 2/3 of what they used to be, and shrug at the pharming nerf. But as a player, whenever I enter a new area and see that the first 3 packs don't drop anything at all, that's incredibly frustrating.

So it might be an effective measure to discourage players to pharm, but it certainly doesn't stop bots.

They want people to stop power pharming very specific areas and mobs? Then why did they design the game such that there are several classes of enemies that drop no runes at all, many that drop armors but rarely have runes, and a couple specific enemies in fixed locations that drop tons of runes? Item acquisition is a huge part of this game right now, and if there are large discrepencies in reward per time between different areas, they should expect that people spend their time doing what's the most profitable.

Of course the global pharming nerf doesn't address that discrepency at all, as it nerfed areas no one spent time in as well.

If they want to stop power pharming, they just need to balance out the drops so that if I wanted to get runes, I have options other than pharming specific locations that they haven't caught yet. That's all there is to it.

Peace,
-CxE

With the latest patch, arena.net would like to discourage farming. I don't think they really care if you bot because if they detect you are running a bot, then more income for them via banning/closing accounts. Unlike d2 or wow, most of GW vital codings are on servers. So bots will be caught.

Farmers ==> cry
Botters ==> banned and afk crying

Eclair · Jun 15, 2005, 07:32 PM // 19:32

The anti-botting measure, if there is one, seems to be only working for some people. My friends and I still farm (as in solo, no henchies, constant rezones, killing only select monsters, etc) and we've noticed no drop in items or item quality as we repeat the zone.

It seems only some people are affected while others are not.

Ensign · Jun 15, 2005, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydrak

With the latest patch, arena.net would like to discourage farming.

There is a difference between the intention behind a change, and the actual effects of a change.

The latest patch does *not* discourage farming in the slightest. It simply makes certain forms of farming more difficult, and reduced the number of good farming spots. It did *nothing* to address the fundamental economic factors that make people pharm in the first place. All they did was increase the scarcity of truly valuable items. Why that is supposed to discourage people from farming, I don't have the slightest clue.

I do not care what they would like to do with a change. I care about the practical effects of a change. I'm playing the game as is, not how they intend it to be. If they care about their game, they'll resolve the difference.

Peace,
-CxE

Phaedrus · Jun 15, 2005, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclair

The anti-botting measure, if there is one, seems to be only working for some people. My friends and I still farm (as in solo, no henchies, constant rezones, killing only select monsters, etc) and we've noticed no drop in items or item quality as we repeat the zone.

It seems only some people are affected while others are not.

The anti-botting measure was adding an increased entropy to areas.

For instance, Riverside Province was a very popular farming spot. It was very easy for a smiting monk or elem to solo because practically everything along three paths was melee-only. First, ANet changed group compositions to tend to include casters with melee groups. Second, they changed travel patterns and load locations so when areas load they are not always the same. In the desert and Shiverpeaks they changed worm spawn locations and made them slightly more random so you can't script them as easily. They also changed certain linking tendancies.

It's still *possible* to create an AI that can examine a group and try to avoid it, but most cheaters are lazy (as evidenced by their need to cheat) and willing to use scripting instead of true bots to do their mindless farming for them.

[ ]

hydrak · Jun 15, 2005, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclair

The anti-botting measure, if there is one, seems to be only working for some people. My friends and I still farm (as in solo, no henchies, constant rezones, killing only select monsters, etc) and we've noticed no drop in items or item quality as we repeat the zone.

It seems only some people are affected while others are not.

How much gold pieces or plats does your friend make per 30 minutes farming after the patch?

Algren Cole · Jun 15, 2005, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sammiel

Ho ho ho. I call shenanigans. First off, I'd like to know how you cracked the encryption on the GW CD keys since all of the actual key checks are likely done server side. Also I would love to see you code a cheat in 45 minutes. Quite the bold claim. For the record I am a world famous programmer, oncologist, grandmaster chess player, astrophysicist, champion baseball player, warrior king, and nobel prize winning chemist. Its the internet after all.

that's quite the list of accomplishments

Crystal NightingGale · Jun 15, 2005, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

I don't know about you guys, but I've been getting a lot more drops. Granted, I don't farm and its just been going through the missions. Got two golds in the same mission last night, actually.

I also get good drops going through missions. I lost count of the times I replayed Thunderkeep misssion after failing so many times, but I got a couple of blue items and a few purple.

Adacia Calla · Jun 16, 2005, 12:04 AM // 00:04

I think I said this in another thread, between the 3 chars I've ascended, I've gotten 2 gold items, both super runes, absorbtion and air. Guess where I found them? With my Lvl.11 E/Mo during the Borlis Pass mission.

Eclair · Jun 16, 2005, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydrak

How much gold pieces or plats does your friend make per 30 minutes farming after the patch?

About 15k an hour off Blessed Gryphons I think, the friend that does Trolls makes more, but I'm not sure how much more. I think this is still reasonable, considering Riverside Knights gave around this much pre-patch. Although it is tame considering some people were saying they were making 100k an hour, but I just find that kind of hard to believe XD.

Siran Dunmorgan · Jun 16, 2005, 12:25 AM // 00:25

I logged on for a few minutes this morning and found two purple and a number—four or five—of blue items in perhaps half an hour between Old Ascalon and The Breach.

Mind you, this was with a level 20 character, so most things—including Charr Axe Fiends—go down in 2-3 hits, and I was able to pick up all the drops instead of things that would normally go to henchmen.

And absolutely everything dropped something, even if it was just one of the 3-4 Tribal Blades common to the area.

—Siran Dunmorgan

Winter King · Jun 16, 2005, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Reading about the discrepancies, I have two ideas:

Are drop rates depedent on level? Does my being lvl 14 make my drops more worthwhile than a lvl20 ascended?

Or more likely:

Is it possible for the game to take the items and gold on your character/in your storage into account when determining drops?

You know, GW socialism. Certain people got a lot of items, so they don't get them anymore, whereas those who don't get better drops.

osfoxtrot · Jun 16, 2005, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydrak

With the latest patch, arena.net would like to discourage farming. I don't think they really care if you bot because if they detect you are running a bot, then more income for them via banning/closing accounts. Unlike d2 or wow, most of GW vital codings are on servers. So bots will be caught.

Farmers ==> cry
Botters ==> banned and afk crying

When you have an iq smaller then the ham sandwitch your eating its a general rule not to post on things you know very little about. Ask anyone with coding skills what a macro is:
A: GW is closed code and they did wonders with the data stored in memory
B: There is in fact no "bots" that connect to the GW server that they can "Detect"
C. The only bots they "banned" and I garantee it was not over 100 as they said, were macros that joined parties in pvp to leech xp but never played.
D. Macros, such as the ones that leave a portal, walk to a chest open it pick up gold go back and sell, are not detectable.

E. Macro, more or less is your computer pressing the keyboard and the mouse for you. In terms of the server, it looks exactly like your a person; and is only "detectable" if they start logging what everyone does in a timeframe, which would amount to more data to sort through then what the space shuttle produces on a mission.

Look at microsoft, the 80 billion dollar company. They have 3000 times the resources that Areanet does, and for instance weeks BEFORE one of there OS' is released to the public its already cracked. (look at windows xp devils own as an example) The combined skills of everyone using a companys given software exceedes the combined skills of the staff working for the company. It is truely a loosing battle - it takes Areanet a week to develop something to throw the macro users off and it takes about an hour and a half before they are back in the game as good as ever.

I DO NOT BOT, however I am a programmer; own my own business and created my website from scratch.

I have 2 level 20 PVE characters ive made on my time off, and have a total of 8 plats between them, after doing dozens of uw runs and fissure runs, winning the game with both and exploring the entire map. I question, if I cannot make the 60-80k to buy a superior vigor after playing the game THAT MUCH the only people that can are those who would bot/macro.

Making people poorer does not curb botting, it encourages it.

Oh and look on there support page on THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE

there is a offical faq "Can I play this game solo or do I have to play with people"

And it clearly states the game is made EQUALLY for solo play as well as party play. It even mentions it would be difficult to SOLO A MISSION WITHOUT HENCHIES but it doesnt say not to do so.

THIS GAME WAS ADVERTISED AS HAVING 700 PLAYABLE HOURS IN PVE

When you nerf collectors, explorable areas, Soloing, and "Farming" which is 99% of peoples way to make enough money to get the next set of armor and thats about it. I've farmed for income, I probably have over 80 gametime hours, no elite armor, no superior vigor, and less then 8k. Where is this 500k im supposed to have in storage eh?

Believe it or not ALL WERE ADVERTISED COMPONENTS OF THE GAME

A D V E R T I S E D

So STFU and grow a brain
And again dont bother posting on something you dont know anything about, it makes you look like moron - Just because Areanet has x in its change log doesnt mean you know y.

Algren Cole · Jun 16, 2005, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by osfoxtrot

When you have an iq smaller then the ham sandwitch your eating its a general rule not to post on things you know very little about. Ask anyone with coding skills what a macro is:
A: GW is closed code and they did wonders with the data stored in memory
B: There is in fact no "bots" that connect to the GW server that they can "Detect"
C. The only bots they "banned" and I garantee it was not over 100 as they said, were macros that joined parties in pvp to leech xp but never played.
D. Macros, such as the ones that leave a portal, walk to a chest open it pick up gold go back and sell, are not detectable.

E. Macro, more or less is your computer pressing the keyboard and the mouse for you. In terms of the server, it looks exactly like your a person; and is only "detectable" if they start logging what everyone does in a timeframe, which would amount to more data to sort through then what the space shuttle produces on a mission.

Look at microsoft, the 80 billion dollar company. They have 3000 times the resources that Areanet does, and for instance weeks BEFORE one of there OS' is released to the public its already cracked. (look at windows xp devils own as an example) The combined skills of everyone using a companys given software exceedes the combined skills of the staff working for the company. It is truely a loosing battle - it takes Areanet a week to develop something to throw the macro users off and it takes about an hour and a half before they are back in the game as good as ever.

I DO NOT BOT, however I am a programmer; own my own business and created my website from scratch.

I have 2 level 20 PVE characters ive made on my time off, and have a total of 8 plats between them, after doing dozens of uw runs and fissure runs, winning the game with both and exploring the entire map. I question, if I cannot make the 60-80k to buy a superior vigor after playing the game THAT MUCH the only people that can are those who would bot/macro.

Making people poorer does not curb botting, it encourages it.

Oh and look on there support page on THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE

there is a offical faq "Can I play this game solo or do I have to play with people"

And it clearly states the game is made EQUALLY for solo play as well as party play. It even mentions it would be difficult to SOLO A MISSION WITHOUT HENCHIES but it doesnt say not to do so.

THIS GAME WAS ADVERTISED AS HAVING 700 PLAYABLE HOURS IN PVE

When you nerf collectors, explorable areas, Soloing, and "Farming" which is 99% of peoples way to make enough money to get the next set of armor and thats about it. I've farmed for income, I probably have over 80 gametime hours, no elite armor, no superior vigor, and less then 8k. Where is this 500k im supposed to have in storage eh?

Believe it or not ALL WERE ADVERTISED COMPONENTS OF THE GAME

A D V E R T I S E D

So STFU and grow a brain
And again dont bother posting on something you dont know anything about, it makes you look like moron - Just because Areanet has x in its change log doesnt mean you know y.

thanks for taking the time to write all that....I wasn't even going to bother dignifying anyone with an intelligent response. But I'll leach off yours and say 'ditto'

hydrak · Jun 16, 2005, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by osfoxtrot

When you have an iq smaller then the ham sandwitch your eating its a general rule not to post on things you know very little about. Ask anyone with coding skills what a macro is:
A: GW is closed code and they did wonders with the data stored in memory
B: There is in fact no "bots" that connect to the GW server that they can "Detect"
C. The only bots they "banned" and I garantee it was not over 100 as they said, were macros that joined parties in pvp to leech xp but never played.
D. Macros, such as the ones that leave a portal, walk to a chest open it pick up gold go back and sell, are not detectable.

E. Macro, more or less is your computer pressing the keyboard and the mouse for you. In terms of the server, it looks exactly like your a person; and is only "detectable" if they start logging what everyone does in a timeframe, which would amount to more data to sort through then what the space shuttle produces on a mission.

Look at microsoft, the 80 billion dollar company. They have 3000 times the resources that Areanet does, and for instance weeks BEFORE one of there OS' is released to the public its already cracked. (look at windows xp devils own as an example) The combined skills of everyone using a companys given software exceedes the combined skills of the staff working for the company. It is truely a loosing battle - it takes Areanet a week to develop something to throw the macro users off and it takes about an hour and a half before they are back in the game as good as ever.

I DO NOT BOT, however I am a programmer; own my own business and created my website from scratch.

I have 2 level 20 PVE characters ive made on my time off, and have a total of 8 plats between them, after doing dozens of uw runs and fissure runs, winning the game with both and exploring the entire map. I question, if I cannot make the 60-80k to buy a superior vigor after playing the game THAT MUCH the only people that can are those who would bot/macro.

Making people poorer does not curb botting, it encourages it.

Oh and look on there support page on THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE

there is a offical faq "Can I play this game solo or do I have to play with people"

And it clearly states the game is made EQUALLY for solo play as well as party play. It even mentions it would be difficult to SOLO A MISSION WITHOUT HENCHIES but it doesnt say not to do so.

THIS GAME WAS ADVERTISED AS HAVING 700 PLAYABLE HOURS IN PVE

When you nerf collectors, explorable areas, Soloing, and "Farming" which is 99% of peoples way to make enough money to get the next set of armor and thats about it. I've farmed for income, I probably have over 80 gametime hours, no elite armor, no superior vigor, and less then 8k. Where is this 500k im supposed to have in storage eh?

Believe it or not ALL WERE ADVERTISED COMPONENTS OF THE GAME

A D V E R T I S E D

So STFU and grow a brain
And again dont bother posting on something you dont know anything about, it makes you look like moron - Just because Areanet has x in its change log doesnt mean you know y.

Any program that does keystroke for you is a bot. You should stop misleading people and telling lies by using a different name, such as "macro".

And btw, it doesn't take a brain larger than a peanut for a person to use wordy and incoherent paragraphs.

It's all about the one-liner power!

osfoxtrot · Jun 16, 2005, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydrak

Any program that does keystroke for you is a bot. You should stop misleading people and telling lies by using a different name, such as "macro".

And btw, it doesn't take a brain larger than a peanut for a person to use wordy and incoherent paragraphs.

It's all about the one-liner power!

Source: Merriam Webster (www.m-w.com)

Main Entry: 2macro
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural macros
Etymology: short for macroinstruction
: a single computer instruction that stands for a sequence of operations

Source: www.answers.com

A bot, most prominently in the first person shooter PC game types (FPS), is a roBOTic computer controlled entity that simulates an online or LAN multiplayer human deathmatch, team deathmatch opponent or a cooperative human player. Computer game bots work via artificial intelligence routines pre-programmed to suit the game map, game rules, game type and other parameters unique to each game.

A bot is a program that uses ai to make decisions, and as such usually has to connect to a server. A macro is a preset list of commands the computer uses, no decision making ability, it just repeats the list of things/spots/places to do, AND CANNOT BE DETECTED since it connects to nothing!

Extra moron points for hydrak!

Silmor · Jun 16, 2005, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

It's all about the one-liner power!

This only applies if the lines are actually powerful.

The man was clearing up a common misconception that bots can be easily discovered and stopped server-side, by sharing some semi-professional insight and terminology - then returned to original terminology when stating that he did not bot (and thereby implying he doesn't use macros and such, if you followed the context a bit more carefully).

The jollies you feel when calling someone a liar just can't weigh up to the danger of misinterpretation, so let's not go around calling people that and avoid the embarassment.

Dazzler · Jun 16, 2005, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydrak

Any program that does keystroke for you is a bot. You should stop misleading people and telling lies by using a different name, such as "macro".

And btw, it doesn't take a brain larger than a peanut for a person to use wordy and incoherent paragraphs.

It's all about the one-liner power!

Yes you just proved your point that even a moron can post a one-liner. He wasn't saying a macro is not a "bot". He was saying that they are not detectable by A.Net unless they log specific activity and search for very very specific activity. Such as the example he gave about joining PVP but taking no action.

Since the "bots" do not directly connect to the server, but instead "play the game" by magically punching the keys and moving the mouse, they can only be detected by indirect evidence based upon the activities being performed in the game. But ANet must be very careful that they do not boot innocent people that just happen to be doing the same sort of things a bot would be coded to do.

In order to "detect" a "bot" that portals out and loots a chest repeatedly, they would have to log that sort of activity on all accounts, then actually look at the timings of the activity when it is repeated 10 zillion times and if the activity never deviates at all in its timing then they could consider it a bot, as any human player would never be able to duplicate the movements exactly everytime.

However, this sort of detection is easily avoidable in a "bot" aka "macro" by just inserting a little randomness in the movements. Just enough to where ANet cannot prove that it is just not a human being mindnumbingly repetitive.

Not to mention that as osfoxtrot said, this would take a staggeringly large amount of storage space to log this activity for all players and then analyze it looking for bots.

I've never written or even seen a bot for GW, but I *have* written bots for web-based multiplayer games that would login and play as 200+ players at once, so I got real good at using different tactics to avoid being detected as a bot. And let me tell you, rand() is your best friend for this sort of thing.

You have made it very clear that you think anyone that does not play as you do must be a farmer or botter and should leave the game. Thankfully ANet does not share your miopic opinion.