Curse

Loralai · Feb 19, 2006, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Certain builds are cookie cutter for a reason. People pull this stuff from top guilds and players that have optimized what they do and win as a result. People keep running IWAY because it remains reasonably successful. Every ranger wears druids because most every rangers needs energy more than they need 10 more armor. Top teams run "boring" cookie cutter stuff, not because they are stupid but because the build is actually best at what it tries to accomplish.

I run a ton of creative builds in random arenas with mixed success. If someone is trying out something new, I'll run a unique build they give me as best I can. That said, if I am building a pug team or finding an 8th or a guild group, I would rather have a cookie cutter build for the following reasons:

1)Player has some vague familiarity with the meta-game. If someone knows to run a gale warrior with the "right" skills, maybe they will also know how it works.
2)I know what to expect from a cookie cutter and I can give specific directions.
3)75% of experimenting is just bad. I know, I've done it. In testing, I drew up some of the most off the wall builds. Some resulted in nerfs, most resulted in us losing. Cookie cutters are proven.
4)Following a winning trend means you are more likely to take advise and follow directions in game. If I'm running a team, I don't need people with independent and creative strategies to emerge once inside. If you feel that Wamo with plate is a winning PvP build, you may also think that hitting a monk when a mez was called is a good strategy.

I don't disagree here. I never said a wammo with plate was a winning build. My point was this... So often on the forums people are very quick to jump on the bandwagon and start throwing the "n" word simply because someone chooses to step outside the realm of the accepted. Some people choose to fill all 4 character slots of an account with PvE characters in order to get a fuller experience, as you can use PvE for PvP but not vice versa. And because someone chooses to do so, in my opinion, regardless of whether it may not be the best choice of armor, why label them a "noob" for it? Not everyone is die-hard into PvP, some just do it from time to time. In my opinion, that doesn't make them a noob, that makes them curious and on the lookout for a new challenge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

If you think you can come up with something better than a standard booner or gale warrior, I'd love for you to make that case. Sometimes I put together a build simply because it bucks a trend and takes advangtage of peoples assumptions. Most of the time, one needs players to fill standard defined rolls which have been well established in the meta-game. Most personalized improvements come with a single skill or a unique weapon, not something totally unrecognizable.

My armor list was pretty standard for a gale or hammer warrior. I can't think of a situation where you'd want to go to plate armor in PvP. It makes no sense to choose an inferior armor, no matter how good your skills are. Any most any build you think up without druids or Glads would be better simply by adding those armor types. If you are on a mission to be different, get weird dyes...don't go out of the way to nerf yourself.

I wasn't looking to make a point in case that I am the Alpha and Omega when it comes to creative builds. My only objective in that post was to point out that there's your way and the way of others. That doesn't make it inferior, just different than what you would choose.

KurtTheBehemoth · Feb 19, 2006, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pevil Lihatuh

Now we of course know that most warriors are in fact ok, and there are just as many morons playing other professions. But warriors are the 'obvious' ones, they're always in front of you, whereas spellcasters are level/behind and you don't see what they're doing (unless they're hte unique ones who think they can tank with 30al

) But most of the time, the people saying warriors are noobs are hte kind of idiots that would probably do just the same as a warrior and kill themselves in 2 seconds.

A perfect example of this coming from a Ranger:

I was in a group doing Ruins of Surmia today, and a guildie in LA starts talking to me. We begin to have a whole conversation about pricing and when the next guild raffle is gonna take place. So without even thinking about it I turn off teamchat and just start following the team. I'm not targeting anything really. Just pressing control and clicking on the leaders name. Well fast forward to 20 minutes later. We are at the end and someone is dead and another person is yelling noob. My initial thought is "Oh crap they are yelling at me!" Nope, they are yelling at the W/Mo. No one even noticed the Ranger that was walking into walls and hadn't shot an arrow since the bonus.

Sagius Truthbarron · Feb 19, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Its odd, usually the worst players I see aren't warriors. They are usually that ranger who stands too close to the patroll, the monk spamming healing breaze with a 15+ energy -1 regen wand, ect.

Of course, then there those warriors who use Orison of Healing

Also, you don't know how many warriors I see on an average basis wearing a full set of Knights armor.

seut · Feb 19, 2006, 09:19 AM // 09:19

newb(ie)s = people new to the game. Many of them choose Wa/Mo, because it seems logical. Those are just starting to learn the game and stop aggroing everything after reaching Yak's Bend.

noobs/n00bs/nubs = ignorant people, who don't want to learn and therefore choose easy cookie cutter builds. Unfortunately that's a mending Wa/Mo, but i meet the much worse firestorm Wa/El sometimes (in Hell's Precipice..). You recognise a noob since they are the only people calling others 'noob' (and ignore/quit).

Thom · Feb 19, 2006, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loralai

I don't disagree here. I never said a wammo with plate was a winning build. My point was this... So often on the forums people are very quick to jump on the bandwagon and start throwing the "n" word simply because someone chooses to step outside the realm of the accepted. Some people choose to fill all 4 character slots of an account with PvE characters in order to get a fuller experience, as you can use PvE for PvP but not vice versa. And because someone chooses to do so, in my opinion, regardless of whether it may not be the best choice of armor, why label them a "noob" for it? Not everyone is die-hard into PvP, some just do it from time to time. In my opinion, that doesn't make them a noob, that makes them curious and on the lookout for a new challenge.

I wasn't looking to make a point in case that I am the Alpha and Omega when it comes to creative builds. My only objective in that post was to point out that there's your way and the way of others. That doesn't make it inferior, just different than what you would choose.

Translation: Don't blame me for being a subpar PvPer because I don't have the proper equipment to play competitively. The fact that I don't have the best stuff which is readily available to any PvP character shouldn't reflect poorly on my abilty. People call me names because I'm different.

Rebuttal: Inferior builds really are inferior builds no matter who is playing them. I'm not talking about your self worth here; I'm talking about your abilty to complete a task efficiently. If you come onto PvPer's turf, you play by their rules if you want to succeed. There is less tolerence for freedom of expression when your opponents will likely be maximizing their chances to win. If you don't care about winning you won't have much fun in any of the 8v8 areas. Most people that PvP regularly or competitively understand this and "noob" just happens to be the label of choice for those that don't. If people are stepping outside of the realm of the accepted, they shouldn't complain when they aren't accepted.

Why this is on topic? Warriors happen to have a reputation for being "non-optimizing" or "inferior" players. PvEers especially don't tend to appreciate the gap between PvP and PvE. Warriors play very different roles in the two game types.

Sagius Truthbarron · Feb 19, 2006, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

People keep running IWAY because it remains reasonably successful.

You just lost any credibility you had, Thom. :/

People play IWAY becuase they are too dumb to think up good builds, or becuase they don't want to both assembling one, and becuase most groups out there are rank 6+.

IWAY = 12 fame for 6 hours. The average Rank 3+ IWAY doesn't get past the third map, and probably disbands just as fast now as an Invite the Whole District build.

On topic with what you're talking about: No, I don't think you're right here. I think if someone wants to be a E/W sword-fire, go right ahead. PvE isn't hard at all, especially with 8 players; you don't need to HULK SMASH.

I've even seen people play the Paladin Pre-made well, and that build is terrible. So, no, I don't think that people can't be good with mediocre builds.

Sheol · Feb 19, 2006, 10:16 AM // 10:16

I disagree... Rank means barely anything.

My unranked team made it all the way to HoH and for most it was our first times. Mind you I no longer IWAY because I dont feel that it is a fair way to play.

Sagius Truthbarron · Feb 19, 2006, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Nobody said anything about rank meaning anything. I said that you're average IWAY (rank 3+) can't get past the third map. Mind you, "getting" to the HoH doesn't mean a thing. You can get to the halls in 1 match.

Valdaran Longfoot · Feb 19, 2006, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

You just lost any credibility you had, Thom. :/

People play IWAY becuase they are too dumb to think up good builds, or becuase they don't want to both assembling one, and becuase most groups out there are rank 6+.

IWAY = 12 fame for 6 hours. The average Rank 3+ IWAY doesn't get past the third map, and probably disbands just as fast now as an Invite the Whole District build.

On topic with what you're talking about: No, I don't think you're right here. I think if someone wants to be a E/W sword-fire, go right ahead. PvE isn't hard at all, especially with 8 players; you don't need to HULK SMASH.

I've even seen people play the Paladin Pre-made well, and that build is terrible. So, no, I don't think that people can't be good with mediocre builds.

People play Iway for quick fame, not to win HoH. Atleast smart people don't play Iway to win HoH (unless your actually good).

Your wrong saying they are dumb, Iway does take SOME skill to even make it to the 3rd map. High rank Iway (and sometimes lower, since Iway rank doesn't mean quite as much) can use actual skill to win.

I play Iway because I'm on at odd hours alot and my guild isn't on 24/7.

And last of all, Paladins are NOT terrible. ANY AND ALL BUILDS ARE GOOD IF YOU PLAY THEM RIGHT. There are other factors that could make it not very good, like compatability with your party members, but overall ANY build can be good.

Omnidragon42 · Feb 19, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Two words: Prebuilt Paladin.

I'm sick of it, 90% of comps warriors use exactly that.

Fred Kiwi · Feb 19, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

I was in RA the other day running an experiment as a warrior, we lose, and someone on the other team says "thanks noob wa/mos for free faction", a) it was an even drawn-out game for the most part, and b) I wasn't even a w/mo. Just goes to show what idiots these people are

Ubernoob · Feb 20, 2006, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Yeah im getting sick of everyone bashing wammos... ive had mine since I started and its my moast reliable character... There is alot of wammo bashing that goes on in pvp too... I went into a random battle once and a ranger spent a good 5 mins calling a stupid wammo noob... So I killed him!

even after I killed him he kept calling me a noob... "Yeah.... says the dead guy..." >.>

art_ · Feb 20, 2006, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Because they are.

Example. Warrior/monk paladin loses in random arenas to a group of w/e and thinks 'i know i'll try that uber build and pwn everything!'

Warrior enters create pvp char screen and sees the skills shock and gale that the pvp warriors were using. 'hang on' he thinks, 'shock does barely any damage, and gale does none!' 'wow those warriors were noobs!'

'hmm, lets see lightning orb, ooh that looks nice. Wow armor penetration. Cool a spell thats like my sword! Actually how about meteor shower. Yikes! look at the damage on that!'

Warrior equips meteor shower, inferno and flare and enters random arenas*.

What i'm trying to point out is that the average warrior in guild wars is a complete moron

*normally sacrificing points from swordsmanship to feed the meteor shower's fire magic, at the expense of swordsmanship (because only noobs use axes)

Mysterious · Feb 20, 2006, 05:57 AM // 05:57

any character can be a noob...all about the person pulling the strings

Masseur · Feb 20, 2006, 06:17 AM // 06:17

It's because speaking from strictly PvE, since most of us can care less about PvP. When I'm in groups, playing whatever character, I see the Warriors always rushing ahead, can't wait, can't sit still for a minute. Always have to be attacking something. If we are killing something that requires range, the warriors can't stand by and watch, they have to go out of their way to get up there to fight. Or run ahead and aggro a mob and let 5 past them while they concentrate on the one they targetted. Nevermind the Monk and casters are fending off the rest. Not to mention most Warriors have no clue of energy management, so it must not cross their mind to wait and let Casters recharge energy. I do play a Warrior and have for a long time, was like my 3rd character I played. And I know enough to go slow, stay with the group. Protect the casters and monk. Back away if I'm dying and the Monks are busy and can't heal me all the time. Bring a spell or 2 that does heal myself just in case. Warriors do not take a lot of brains to play in the PvE part of the game most of the time, until the upper levels. So as it has been said before, it's the first one people are likely to pick to start out the game with.

I'm a Warrior myself and when I'm playing my other characters, I am tired of having to save the Warrior's ass, whether as a Monk healing or my other characters helping the rest of the party, taking on the rest of the mob while they are working on their one.

<stepping off soap box, lol>

Harmony · Feb 20, 2006, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Well said, mysterious..Bravo!

Ken Dei · Feb 20, 2006, 09:10 AM // 09:10

I'm a W/Mo (not a Whammo)

Personally, I do what few people can stand to do. I wear a combo of Armors, 2 pieces of dragon, my helm and 2 pieces of gladiator. It doesn't look to bad, and I get some benefits from both worlds. I dispise being called a noob, because I'm not, and I have enough experience to know that. PvP savvy, to the degree of some people, not so much, but I still do fine when I get a change to prove it.

I would make the probably displeasing statement that a Warrior of ANY type is the 2nd hardest class to play, and by play I mean not being stupid with it.

Why? Because you specifically don't get the advantage of sitting in the back and observing the battle. Generally, all you have to guide your decisions are those 4/8 little health bars, and your general idea of where EVERYONE is. That means in PvP every person, their class, their lethality, their detriments, etc. But you have to do it without a really good veiw (unless you have a lucky reverse camera angle). In PvE it's only that much harder because you usually have 2-3x the enemies to focus on.

I have had the benefit of having a short enough attention span to grasp these things, and also have played other classes, or against other classes enough to note various visual signals of skills to wait for or avoid.

Yes, a lot of W screw up, but that's because they suffer from the following:
A.) Very little opportunity to work with a group because of the idiotic stigma, so they don't learn how to interact properly.

B.) Have trouble focusing on everything a W needs to focus on.

This is of course excluding the "Charge + Death" Warriors.

If this sounds like a load of bull, to bad, tough cookies, it's true. I would approximate (guess) that 30-40% of the "noob" W are that way because no one bothers to teach them to be better, they just tell them they're stupid noobs and throw them out.

Also, I see a LOT of monks who SAY "Go ahead and rush in I will heal you," but they usually do it before others join the group or in whisper, so when they fail to keep you alive, it looks like you were just one more dumb warrior. I have had this happen on repeat occasions, when I was lower level and less experienced. I learned however that Monks are the least reliable of ALL players.

Lastly, if a monk is having trouble keeping a W of any type, especially a W/Mo alive in the middle of 3-4 mobs with no one else getting attacked, you need to practice more, the same goes for 1-2 human enemies that aren't shutting you down.

I am a W/Mo, I'm proud of it, the "noob" flingers can all go eat it.

coolsti · Feb 20, 2006, 09:28 AM // 09:28

I have a lot of friends who play Warrior and who play it well. But my experiences show that when forming a party with unknown human players, it is the Warrior character that is the most likely to "not fit in" with the rest of the group. What I mean by "not fit in" is by not playing like a team and instead doing his/her own thing. This includes rushing, not waiting for regen of energy and HP, running when the rest of the team does not want to run, and continuing to battle the front line enemies without falling back to either 1) avoid aggroing other wandering mobs or 2) to protect the more squishy members of the group being attacked by enemy that ran around the Warrior.

Why is this? It could be because of the type of player that would rather play a hack/slash warrior rather than another character. It could be because a Warrior that is not dependent on energy has no concept of what it is like to enter a battle without having time to recharge. A definite problem with a lot of Warriors is simply that they start to fight a foe or three, and give no regard to how the battlefield is going around them. A good warrior will fall back to protect the rest of the party. A good warrior will play tactically and change his/her position on the battlefield according to how things play out.

At any rate, an unknown human warrior is the character that I am most likely not to trust as being a good addition to my party. But I am very happy for the Warriors on my friend's list, because they have learned to play well.

By the way, I make it a rule never to join a party with more than two Warriors. Again from my experiences, 3 W are too many; the skills of the other character classes are badly needed as well, and 1 or 2 W are enough for tanking. In fact, good Ranger pets or Necro Minions do just as well.

Poison Ivy · Feb 20, 2006, 09:43 AM // 09:43

All of this is mainly due to that Warriors have the most "difference" from the other classes. They need to approach the target to attack, they have high dmg, good offence and good defences ( with comes with a price ), and energy is almost gibberish to them since they rely on AD so they rush in, think the Monks have ulimited energy to keep team healed, and when they die...ZOMFAG NOOB MONKZORS!!1111!!!11!1!!!!!1111!!one!!!!111!!!11

Any fool (Warriors) can run into a group without second thought then blame the monks...and most do.

*cough*

Anyways, after 5 months of GW, the only thing that I have discovered on my own is that NEVER creat a Warrior as your first char if your a newbie.

...what the hell we gonna do when the Assassins start to pile up when Faction is released...

baz777 · Feb 20, 2006, 11:58 AM // 11:58

I’ve played a monk for most of my time on GW and God what a difference a good warrior, (or pair), makes to my life.

I have, on the odd occasion, adapted my build at the warrior’s request, this I’m usually more than happy to do as this at least suggest that he/she has put some thought into how they/the team are going to approach different areas.

Sadly though is rare but I myself have never called anyone in game a noob, (and thankfully, so far, have never been called one myself).

I personally would not criticise anyone’s build before seeing how good they actually are. I’m sure if I posted my monk build on here I would receive plenty of disparaging comments about it, but it works well for me and the teams that I join.

I just don’t think you can generalise about this, I’ve seen good/bad in all the professions and am willing to give people the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.