Curse

Mordakai · Apr 13, 2006, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

With that much profit, its not hard to imagine that these criminals employ high-tech gadgets to deguise their bot's IP and multiple accounts. Their gold continues to stream into a filtered account, untraceable and uninterupted. This sort of profiteering is comparable to those of narcotic cartels and illegal arms trade.

OK, are people making their millions off sweatshops or bots? It does make a difference, because bots don't expoit anyone, and it doesn't hurt anyone except perhaps "virtually."

Comparing this to narcotic cartels or illegal arms trade is overreaching a bit. Until people start being killed over virtual gold, it's just not the same evil.

If you really wanted to shut down farmers, then just eliminate trading items in game. End of Farming.

I know this would disrupt a huge part of the player base (farmers and buyers), but, frankly, if the problem is as nefarious as you insist, it would be a small price to pay to stop the sweatshops.

If that's too extreme, then work out a complex program that won't allow player's getting gold or items for "nothing". You'd have to offer up an item that's worth gold in a certain range (decided by the market and Anet). This is more susceptible to exploiting, so it won't be perfect, but it would probably cut down on ebaying gold and items. It would also end scamming, but at the cost of "free trade."

Diablo™ · Apr 13, 2006, 05:33 PM // 17:33

I dont disagree. Sweatshop farmers are not farming on Guild Wars just to make fun of us, there's a fundamental driving force that compels them to do so. Just as I am sure that there must be at least dozens of business here that is causing a worse affect to the people across the sea, and we may not even know we're doing it, afterall who is to blame about all the sneaker and t-shirt sweatshops.

twicky_kid · Apr 13, 2006, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by ophidian409

I don't really understand why only Chinese farm gold like that but no other sweatshop in other countries? there are other countries poorer than china.

Because of cheap labor. They can get away with paying some one 56 cent an hour in china. In other countries it is laughable. There are other countries on this I've seen some euro farmers as well.

As for americans this market is completely none existance because you not make any profit since our minimum wage is so high compared to the rest of the world.

I understand their reasonings behind taking a job like that. China has some of the worst environmental manufacturing jobs. Its more like I can sit a safe environment out of the weather and play a game I like. Would you rather work a job for the same pay that will most likely kill you within 7-10 years?

The only reason they are making so much money is because of money conversion and cheap labor. American and Euro is worth more than chineese money. They sell it on ebay for american currency and convert it to chineese.

Who ever invented cloths is to blame for t-shirt and sneaker sweatshops. Besides they make less money then the farmers we are discussing. About 10-15 cent per hour. Those Blue sweat pants with the white strip at wal mart is stiched by a woman in india. The price that wal mart sells just 1 pants for is equal to 1 week pay to that woman. Its a shame really.

Diablo™ · Apr 13, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

OK, are people making their millions off sweatshops or bots? It does make a difference, because bots don't expoit anyone, and it doesn't hurt anyone except perhaps "virtually."

Individually they're not making millions, their profit may be high, but a sweatshop comprises of many individual farmers, each employing their own bot programs. It is the accumlated sweatshop profit that ranges in the millions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Comparing this to narcotic cartels or illegal arms trade is overreaching a bit. Until people start being killed over virtual gold, it's just not the same evil.

Not comparing it morally of course... sweatshop farming is far from that level of depravation, but the fundamentals are all there: An illegal economic system driven by the difference and indifference of an upper class and lower class society, where the demand is high and the transfer of goods kept underground to avoid detection, a black market of sort.

icemonkey · Apr 13, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

the part that i think is most important is the part of the game makers. They are stupid and bad business people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by article

Resellers tell us that selling gold and high-level characters is about a hundred times more profitable than what these game companies make from monthly fees.

the game makers are stupid and didnt capitolize on the real market of these games, in-game items. Its the game makers fault they don't make money on this. If they had these for real money auctions and controlled them they would be the ones raking it all in. They could control the process how they wanted to. but instead they didnt and jsut complain about something they could have prevented to begin with

Mordakai · Apr 13, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

I really think the MMOs could end these bots and sweatshops just by changing the way people are able to trade items.

The question is, would we be willing to accept it? For the record, I would.

Killsmith · Apr 13, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Yeah, prices in other parts of the world are really low too. I had a friend that went to India with a big group of people. At least a dozen of them went to a nice restaraunt and stuffed themselves silly for something like 4 US dollars.

Ctb · Apr 13, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

The obvious solution, of course, is to have a real economy where gold doesn't just appear out of thin air, and item values are determined not by their characteristics, but in the same way dyes and runes are (e.g. - supply and demand). Obviously, this would have to be adjusted in pre-searing since nothing would ever be worth anything otherwise.

Either that, or strictly limit the amount of gold people can horde by "taxing" them.

The only way you're going to get rid of farmers is if they can't just generate infinite resources through patience.

Nevin · Apr 13, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

I wonder if those people enjoy playing the game; This may be a little heartless, But I still dislike them. Even if it is their job. I remember back in Lineage 2, while I'd be leveling and killing monsters; the chinese players would run up and snatch my gold drops while I was being chased around.

Cherno · Apr 13, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Remember, not everyone has the same laws regarding minimum wage and unless you can comment specificially on the economic system of a particular country, you would do well not to criticize them.

Regarding .56 an hour, what is the standard rate of pay for that country/region? I know that in Paraguay, the average personal income is about $185 a month, which comes to $1.15 an hour. While that may seem drastically low for people in the US, that might be perfectly livable in their country.

It is not for us to judge them based on our standard of living and economic situation.

Don't forget that many many US companies "farm" out their own business to other countries because of the cheaper labor costs.

Diablo™ · Apr 13, 2006, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancidgoat

its because they are a bunch of commies, you can either agree to work in the sweatshops for pennies or we shoot you in the head. well maybe its not that drastic but you get the idea.

Although the outcome for refusing a sweatshop farming job would probably be less favorable, I'm sure there's no need to shoot someone in the head for it.

beanerman_99 · Apr 13, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I really think the MMOs could end these bots and sweatshops just by changing the way people are able to trade items.

The question is, would we be willing to accept it? For the record, I would.

I tend to agree with you but how in the world would a game change the way we trade with others?

You can't just get rid of gold or such, the community would just come up with its own form of currency (like runes in D2 or ectos in GW). A game would still have to allow players to trade or else MMO's would be just like playing single-player games with other people running around.

I just can't seem to wrap my brain on a way to get around farmer, dupers, hackers who sell in game items for real world cash. Is there a way for a game company to copyright the entire contents of a game and therefore making it illegal for places like eBay to host the selling of in-game items. For example, I know the NFL and MLB have very strict copyright infringement laws to protect their offical merchandise. This may be a stretch, but am I making sense? Likewise, the movie studios have protection against black market sales of DVD's; you can't legally sell a copy of a movie on eBay. I don't know if this is the same thing as selling in-game items but I think that this is the direction that game companies need to be looking. Block the sale of items and you may be able to decrease the number of farmers, not completely but you could dent them quite a bit.

Mordakai · Apr 13, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by beanerman_99

I tend to agree with you but how in the world would a game change the way we trade with others?.

I already posted some ideas in my [above]* post.

You could ban trade altogether (or limit it to item for item trades).

Or you could work out a complex program that won't allow players getting gold or items for "nothing". You'd have to offer up an item that's worth gold in a certain range (decided by the market and Anet). This is more susceptible to exploiting, so it won't be perfect, but it would probably cut down on ebaying gold and items. It would also end scamming, but at the cost of "free trade."

These are just a couple ideas off the top of my head, I'm sure a designer working full time could come up with even a better solution.

*(OK, this was merged, so it now looks I just repeated myself on the same page - apologies)

Justafyme · Apr 13, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Personally If I had to choose...I would rather sit on my bony little arse playing video games for 58 cents on the dollar than having to sit hunched over sewing god knows what piece of substandard crap... so walmart can sell it enmasse..and make....guess what...pennies on the dollar. Calling sweatshop workers bad names is about as appropriate as calling migrant farm workers pathetic losers who have no ambition. They are doing what they are able to do and they are supporting themselves to the best of their abilities. I don't personally understand the need to purchase money from ebay, etc....but if for some strange reason my husband felt he "needed" to purchase money with real life cash (which just for the record would never happen as neither one of us take this game very seriously), I don't think I'd have to much to say about it. It boils down to the fact that as a business professional he makes a very good wage...and the time spent farming is worth more money than the few bucks it would cost to purchase it. Now the only "solution" I can think of would be for Anet to sell gold or items via their website. Sure we could argue the fact that sweatshops are unethical, and there is exploitation going on...but again...what do you think you're doing when you go to a walmart or another store of that caliber?

Bah.

Mordakai · Apr 13, 2006, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justafyme

Personally If I had to choose...I would rather sit on my bony little arse playing video games for 58 cents on the dollar than having to sit hunched over sewing god knows what piece of substandard crap...

Just FYI, they aren't actually "playing" the video game. They are babysitting bots.

But, yeah, still better than glueing shoes for 58¢ an hour...

There's basically two discussions going on here: How morally wrong is "sweatshop" farming? To me, you'd have to prove that these people are being treated worse than at other factories. You'd also have to prove such actions are somehow causing drastic harm to MMORPGs. Are they raising prices by flooding the market with gold, or lowering prices by flooding the market with items? Or do these effects balance out?

Second discussion: If Anet is as against farming as they say they are, then why not implement some tough policies regarding in game trades? Sure, it will piss people off that they just can't "give" someone 1 million gold anymore. But isn't that a small price to play, IF this is a big a problem as people state? This is actually something I'd like more feedback on: Would you as the player accept restrictions on trades in order to limit and/or stop these practices?

For the record, those that are appalled by sweatshops should look at the real world products they are buying. If it says: Made in China , there's a good chance it wasn't made by someone making $10 an hour.

Phaern Majes · Apr 13, 2006, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Wait I have it, the perfect solution! Nobody, pay real money for in game items/gold. Wow that was simple, all problems solved. Seriously though, I think the players are equally responsible. Their purchasing of in game items/gold enables people to sell them. I think if you start banning the people buying rather than just the people selling, then the community would wise up and stop doing it. I mean if I got a 6 month ban for buying 100k, I'd probably see that it isn't worth it. As you can easily make 100k in 6 months. Either that or that 100k just got 50$ more expensive. What needs to happen is ban both sides of the trade not just the sellers.

Age · Apr 13, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

I don't get all this but you real want to know something you can make more money from selling or just exporting it out.I am talking about real world Narcotics here as you can make more than farming for gold in 1 day selling than selling gold on GW for a week or month.Then working in a Hong kong brothal pays real well.In essence crime pays untill you do the time but you get 3 meals a day and a bed to sleep in.

ripchicken67 · Apr 13, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

I don't know about all these people that have all this time on their hands, that they would want to spend their time doing this.....but I can attest to the "GREED" that these ingame economies can create. With GW as with others I have played, a person can easily get bogged down in the aquisition of wealth within the game communities. Although it adds to the games' realism and is a necessary part of the game, a person has to remember it is only 1 part of the whole. To fully appreciate the entertainment value, you need to play the game as it was meant to be played, taking in all of its content, and also remember..."it is just a game!"

jules · Apr 14, 2006, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherno

Remember, not everyone has the same laws regarding minimum wage and unless you can comment specificially on the economic system of a particular country, you would do well not to criticize them.

Regarding .56 an hour, what is the standard rate of pay for that country/region? I know that in Paraguay, the average personal income is about $185 a month, which comes to $1.15 an hour. While that may seem drastically low for people in the US, that might be perfectly livable in their country.

It is not for us to judge them based on our standard of living and economic situation.

Don't forget that many many US companies "farm" out their own business to other countries because of the cheaper labor costs.

In Malaysia you get paid about $1.30 USD per hour to work at a Pizza Hut, and you do not get to keep any of the tips. (Malaysia is fairly well developed for a 'third world' country) So I guess 56 cents is appalling, but not as bad as it might seem if you were brought up in a developed Western country. 56 cents is a realtively decent salary for an untrained position; some people get exploited far worse while doing harder labour.

I'm not condoning sweat shops. Just keep in mind that given their circumstances it could be far more viable to play a game rather than work a more labour intensive job. In addition to that, welfare states are virtually non-existant so the unemployed do not get benefit. (Every once in a while I meet someone here in the UK who refuses to get a job just so that he/she can keep collecting benefits)

hellprowler · Apr 14, 2006, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Arguing about Real Cash for Money is pointless, because the people who hate the secondary market REFUSE to ever even consider any point by someone who is even the slightest bit different in opinion.

Arguing with Secondary Market haters is like arguing with a brick wall, just don't bother.