Curse

Xethrion · Dec 12, 2005, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiq

If people dont have time to play the game properly, they shouldnt bother buying it, if you dont have a decent amount of time to put into a game, then an mmo isnt really the right choice.

GW is a CORPG. Not an MMO. Yes it isn't really the right choice. So? Don't tell me what to do with my free time. If I choose to do it, it's none of your business.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiq

If everyone else is having to put in time be it farming or trading or whatever to make theyre money, then so should everyone else

I use my time to make real life money. I convert it over to Guild wars gold. Don't see a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiq

Then theres the fact that the more people who buy using real life money and such, the more it thrives, and the more you end up with jacked up prices on items, making it impossible for the normal players to buy them, and as I said, using real life money is cheating, plane and simple.

Why is using real life money cheating? Name me a high priced item, that is inherently overpowered and that normal players can't get from collector's or crafters. and by overpowered, I mean something BLATANTLY overpowered like +10 energy more. Or something with 50% skill recharge on everything. Nothing eh? Because frankly, only a few percentage points separate the best of the best, from your collector stuff. So what disadvantage is there, except for the aesthetic one?

And if you're complaining that you should be over to lord over people cos you have cool looking equipment, and they don't because they don't have enough time to spend on the game because they have more real life responsibilities, I seriously think you need to set your priorities straight. Because I simply do not see what issue there is with fairness and such.

PS : At the current eBay rates, it takes 100 US to buy a set of Fissure armour. Someone who can afford to spend that much, must be in a high paying job somewhere. Doesn't he deserve your respect, for being such a productive member of society? I think that's more warranted, than respecting someone for farming their asses off just to get the same thing.

Johno77 · Dec 12, 2005, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkMishkin

Wow, the world is a bad place, never realised that. I just thought we were all happy capitalists eating vacuum packed food while playing censored online games. You imagine that anything you buy; trainers, shirts, christmas presents, were made by workers in better conditions? I think the term 'fire and forget' perfectly describes amateur activists who post their furious morals on internet forums, who then proceed to decorate their serious message with ridiculous smiley faces.

'amateur activists...who then proceed to decorate their serious message with ridiculous smiley faces'

Oh Come on, i suppose you think you're a revolutionary Socialist because you have a picture of Lenin? Maybe you've been instilled with the righteous power to judge others whilst ignoring your own standards? Oh no wait, you're on a forum for Guild Wars, just like Lenin would have been - in days off from the revolutionary cause of course.

Obsiedion · Dec 12, 2005, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Ok perhaps this is a random question, or perhaps this is an epiphany to allot of people, how exactly does the source of peoples GW gold effect you?

I will go out on a limb and say, since there is an element of trust to any purchase, you'd have to trust the vendor. Secondly you'd probably have some moral compass guiding you away from people you know use BOTS, or illegitimate sources for gathering their gains (generallisation). Ok so basically this leaves good people buying a service the need, supplied from a reputable source that is offering something in demand (I see a pattern here lol).

Ok there are people who buy dodgy goods and use their ill gotten gains to further their own tyrannical evil empire, but come on, how many *honestly* do you actually run into?

Perhaps I am more of a "glass half full" guy, but lets look at this for a second. I have bought gold from Ebay, bought 15k armour, and not hindered anyone. Why did i buy? Because I don’t have 14 hours a day to play GW. So how am I rewarded for my efforts in GW? No money (because I play the game instead of gold farming) little exp (because I play the game instead of exp farming). alright lets say I, as a professional, earn more real cash then say a student, who has more time to play the game. We work with each other, he reaps the financial rewards of my lack of time, and I reap the gaming benefits of his lack of money. Why is that so bad?

Now I know what your thinking, "he gets armour and goes to the early arenas, and why work for the armour? and playing this game is for nothing if you can buy everything". What about the people (those uber l33t godly champions) that spend all day farming for themselves, only to get ran to droks, grab the elites and come to ascalon arena with a lvl 2 and whoop everyone? That’s fair how? I guess it doesn’t matter to me how people get their cash, it doesn’t affect me. (and please don’t start talking about the economy because every economy in a game can be balanced. it’s a game

)

think about it like this the swastika is a 3,000 year old symbol of peace, but most only know it as the twisted symbol of the nazis. Every story has two sides; so don’t be too quick to judge others, and their means.

Obs

Johno77 · Dec 12, 2005, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Nope, not convinced at all by that one. Leaving aside the economic argument consider this. I 'don't have the time' to become a world 100 metres champion. I'm very talented but my social situation forces me to work 12 hours a day to feed my family and i never make it to the big-time. Other people do make it, they have more fortuitous circumstances than me, they are students with all the time in the world to train. So, to level the playing field i take a few steroids and within a few months 'bang' i'm competing at the same levels as they are! It's just i didn't have the time to train properly, so i cheated. That's ok then, isn't it?

Xethrion · Dec 12, 2005, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johno77

Nope, not convinced at all by that one. Leaving aside the economic argument consider this. I 'don't have the time' to become a world 100 metres champion. I'm very talented but my social situation forces me to work 12 hours a day to feed my family and i never make it to the big-time. Other people do make it, they have more fortuitous circumstances than me, they are students with all the time in the world to train. So, to level the playing field i take a few steroids and within a few months 'bang' i'm competing at the same levels as they are! It's just i didn't have the time to train properly, so i cheated. That's ok then, isn't it?

In that very irrelevant example, you neglected to mention 2 things.

One : In YOUR example, the person actually gets an unfair advantage in training, before reaching an equivalent level with the top people, by cheating. In THIS case however, everybody's at the same level already. Explain to me how the more expensive weapons are inherently overpowering. I've said it time and time again, yet no one can prove it. Does lots of GW gold make you an uber l337 player who pwns everything, compared to the guy with only crafter and collector stuff? No.

Two : In YOUR example, the person 'hurts' other people by getting a leg up and getting to the top levels of competition unfairly. Tell me, how is buying gold in GW hurting others, when EVERYBODY can have the same weapons and armour, statistically, for a fraction of the price of the expensive ones.

aron searle · Dec 12, 2005, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johno77

Nope, not convinced at all by that one. Leaving aside the economic argument consider this. I 'don't have the time' to become a world 100 metres champion. I'm very talented but my social situation forces me to work 12 hours a day to feed my family and i never make it to the big-time. Other people do make it, they have more fortuitous circumstances than me, they are students with all the time in the world to train. So, to level the playing field i take a few steroids and within a few months 'bang' i'm competing at the same levels as they are! It's just i didn't have the time to train properly, so i cheated. That's ok then, isn't it?

Whilst im not sure on my standpoint with ebay gold, arguments like this are a completly irrelivent.

This is not the real world, or the 100 meter sprint, it is a GAME.

Johno77 · Dec 12, 2005, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xethrion

In that very irrelevant example, you neglected to mention 2 things.

One : In YOUR example, the person actually gets an unfair advantage in training, before reaching an equivalent level with the top people, by cheating. In THIS case however, everybody's at the same level already. Explain to me how the more expensive weapons are inherently overpowering. I've said it time and time again, yet no one can prove it. Does lots of GW gold make you an uber l337 player who pwns everything, compared to the guy with only crafter and collector stuff? No.

Two : In YOUR example, the person 'hurts' other people by getting a leg up and getting to the top levels of competition unfairly. Tell me, how is buying gold in GW hurting others, when EVERYBODY can have the same weapons and armour, statistically, for a fraction of the price of the expensive ones.

Oh please - you really think there's no advantage to be gained from buying gw gold? Granted, my example was a more extreme one (but still relevant i think) GW is a game played by many people, in pve especially, where the whole POINT of the game is to get nice looking weapons and armour etc. You are undermining what people work hard for in an unfair way, fullstop. It compromises the integrity of the game and the reasons why many people still play it, that is sufficient to call it cheating. Just because you place no value on endeavour within a game does not mean that others don't either. You ARE hurting others as you devalue their sense of worth and achievement, whether you like it or not.

coolsti · Dec 12, 2005, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Well I for one am glad someone dug this thread up again, I hadn't seen it before.

Man is this sick! I can understand fully the people in the world who would exploit games like this to earn big bucks. Because lets face it, if there is a way to make money, people in this world will do it, that is just a fact of life.

And the sickest thing about this is the same old story: these people wouldn't be there with their bots if they had no customers! If these guys are bragging about earning $100,000 or so per year from this bot farming, it is because there are players out there willing to give them this money instead of playing the game. That is sick! The point of such games is to slowly get better by earning experience, finding gold, finding items, etc. etc. Taking the easy way out via eBay or whatever is absurd!

Xethrion · Dec 12, 2005, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johno77

Oh please - you really think there's no advantage to be gained from buying gw gold? Granted, my example was a more extreme one (but still relevant i think) GW is a game played by many people, in pve especially, where the whole POINT of the game is to get nice looking weapons and armour etc. You are undermining what people work hard for in an unfair way, fullstop. It compromises the integrity of the game and the reasons why many people still play it, that is sufficient to call it cheating. Just because you place no value on endeavour within a game does not mean that others don't either. You ARE hurting others as you devalue their sense of worth and achievement, whether you like it or not.

And working from 8 to 5 every weekday isn't hard work? You might want to make it sound like the people who play the game are being 'noble' and 'legit' but in the end of the day, farming IS boring, repetitive, mindless grind. Instead of working at a desk, they're working at the comp.

Unless you think that playing through the game with missions and quests is the right and noble way to get better looking stuff. In that case, I honestly pity you, because you'd take forever to get what you want. Maybe that makes you feel a sense of achievement, but I think it's ridiculous. farming is so widespread for a REASON. It's the FASTEST way to get what you want, plain and simple. You might say that if you don't enjoy playing, why bother, but the fact is, 15ks and Fissure armours are there for a reason. They're there to be worked TOWARDS. And anybody who wants them in the quickest possible time (which is most people), will eventually turn to farming.

And coming from an ecto farmer, who already has 3 sets of fissure and am only 5 ectos (2 hours worth) away from my fourth, I'm not surprised that people are buying gold off GW. Because, for the average player (which I'm not), the price tag is simply absurdly high. I agree that you should work for the best armour in the game. However, having to spend 1 month farming enough by conventional means (read : not trapping/soloing/duoing UW) just to get ONE piece of Fissure armour, is just ridiculous.

PS : I don't feel any sense of devaluement for my 3 (soon to be 4) sets of fissure, when I see someone walking around who admits that he bought gold to get it cos he has no time to play. Maybe you feel the need to wear it as a status symbol, but I like it simply because it's different from what most others wear. Not because I like to entertain comments about my 'omg cool l337 armour' Don't believe me? PM me for my IGN and I'll stroll in front of you in my 3 sets of fissure, as well as show you my 120 ectos for warrior fissure, because I'm going to wait for my guildies to accompany me to go craft my armour.

Want more proof that I farmed those ectos myself? I'll stroll in front of you with my UW solo monk, then show you a screenshot of my experience. 4.2/3 MILLION exp just from the UW alone at last count. How bout that.

And yet, after all those hours of farming and grinding to get my armour, I still don't mind if others buy gold off eBay. Because having been there, having done the mind numbingly boring, but fastest way to get my fissure, I truly can sympathize with them.

Johno77 · Dec 12, 2005, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xethrion

And working from 8 to 5 every weekday isn't hard work? You might want to make it sound like the people who play the game are being 'noble' and 'legit' but in the end of the day, farming IS boring, repetitive, mindless grind. Instead of working at a desk, they're working at the comp.

Unless you think that playing through the game with missions and quests is the right and noble way to get better looking stuff. In that case, I honestly pity you, because you'd take forever to get what you want. Maybe that makes you feel a sense of achievement, but I think it's ridiculous. farming is so widespread for a REASON. It's the FASTEST way to get what you want, plain and simple. You might say that if you don't enjoy playing, why bother, but the fact is, 15ks and Fissure armours are there for a reason. They're there to be worked TOWARDS. And anybody who wants them in the quickest possible time (which is most people), will eventually turn to farming.

And coming from an ecto farmer, who already has 3 sets of fissure and am only 5 ectos (2 hours worth) away from my fourth, I'm not surprised that people are buying gold off GW. Because, for the average player (which I'm not), the price tag is simply absurdly high. I agree that you should work for the best armour in the game. However, having to spend 1 month farming enough by conventional means (read : not trapping/soloing/duoing UW) just to get ONE piece of Fissure armour, is just ridiculous.

PS : I don't feel any sense of devaluement for my 3 (soon to be 4) sets of fissure, when I see someone walking around who admits that he bought gold to get it cos he has no time to play. Maybe you feel the need to wear it as a status symbol, but I like it simply because it's different from what most others wear. Not becaue I like to entertain comments about my 'omg cool l337 armour' Don't believe me? PM me for my IGN and I'll stroll in front of you in my 3 sets of fissure, as well as show you my 120 ectos for warrior fissure, because I like to wait for my guildies to accompany me to go craft my armour.

Want more proof that I farmed those ectos myself? I'll stroll in front of you with my UW solo monk, then show you a screenshot of my experience. 4.2/3 million exp just from the UW alone at last count. How bout that.

You really should read more carefully before you start ranting on about farming. I never mentioned a word against farming, rather BUYING gold for real money was the point i was argueing against. Secondly, thanks for your pity but i really don't need it. Perhaps you do, jabbering on about how FOW armor is there to be 'worked towards' and then contradicting yourself absurdly. You have happily invested large quantities of time to look 'different', but what if everyone was like you and didn't care if people bought gold on ebay? What if 90% of people in GW were walking round in FOW armor because they had no problem with buying gold on ebay? How 'different' would you feel then? It's people like you that lose out to gold buyers and the sad thing is you don't even realize it.
P.S
By the way, for someone that's not there to impress people and doesn't care what they think, you spend a hell of a lot of time telling everyone how much gold/ecto's/ etc you have and trying to show them off to people!

Xethrion · Dec 12, 2005, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johno77

You really should read more carefully before you start ranting on about farming. I never mentioned a word against farming, rather BUYING gold for real money was the point i was argueing against. Secondly, thanks for your pity but i really don't need it. Perhaps you do, jabbering on about how FOW armor is there to be 'worked towards' and then contradicting yourself absurdly. You have happily invested large quantities of time to look 'different', but what if everyone was like you and didn't care if people bought gold on ebay? What if 90% of people in GW were walking round in FOW armor because they had no problem with buying gold on ebay? How 'different' would you feel then? It's people like you that lose out to gold buyers and the sad thing is you don't even realize it.
P.S
By the way, for someone that's not there to impress people and doesn't care what they think, you spend a hell of a lot of time telling everyone how much gold/ecto's/ etc you have and trying to show them off to people!

Am I contradicting myself? Not really. At the current price tag of 100 US per set, I'd like to see everybody who buys gold off eBay walking around in FoW armour. And it'd take a very rich person to match my four sets of Fissure. If he has THAT much money to spend, more power to him. Sadly enough however, the majority of gold buyers, do it in small amounts, just to afford 15k and middle end stuff like Fiery Dragon Swords. Very few of them have the inclination AND the budget to get FoW. Even if everyone was like me, and didn't care if people bought gold off GW, that still wouldn't lower the price of gold on eBay. Because the prices are set by the owners of the Chinese sweatshops, and they couldn't give a good god damn whether people accept it or not, as long as their pockets are lined with cash. Irrelevance again I see.

The only reason I was ranting on about farming, was because you were ranting on about how buying gold cheapens the time everyone spends playing the game to get better looking items. And what's the most widespread way that people go about doing that? farming. so who's contradicting himself now?

PS : I only said that, so you wouldn't think I'm supporting gold buyers because I'm one myself. And because you were spouting how people with FoW armours would feel devalued. And since having 3 FoW sets puts me in the position to refute that point, I tossed that in. Get that? The offer to show you in-game, was to shut down any 'YOU CAN"T PROVE THAT' and "YOU DON"T REALLY HAVE THAT' arguments that might arise from that statement. I can, and I will at any time. AND the offer to show you my experience, was to prove, once and for all, that I farmed those ectos myself, and am not a 'cheating' gold buyer. Since I'm pretty sure someone could just be anal and toss that in "YOU DIDN"T REALLY FARM ALL THAT U BOUGHT IT FROM EBAY COS U SUPPORT IT". Get that too?

"lol no one's gonna accuse you of that you're just taking the chance to show off" No one's going to accuse me of that, because I have proven that I can instantly prove him wrong. I'd rather do that, than waste another post telling him so

Johno77 · Dec 12, 2005, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xethrion

Am I contradicting myself? Not really. At the current price tag of 100 US per set, I'd like to see everybody who buys gold off eBay walking around in FoW armour. And it'd take a very rich person to match my four sets of Fissure. If he has THAT much money to spend, more power to him. Sadly enough however, the majority of gold buyers, do it in small amounts, just to afford 15k and middle end stuff like Fiery Dragon Swords. Very few of them have the inclination AND the budget to get FoW. Even if everyone was like me, and didn't care if people bought gold off GW, that still wouldn't lower the price of gold on eBay. Because the prices are set by the owners of the Chinese sweatshops, and they couldn't give a good god damn whether people accept it or not, as long as their pockets are lined with cash. Irrelevance again I see.

The only reason I was ranting on about farming, was because you were ranting on about how buying gold cheapens the time everyone spends playing the game to get better looking items. And what's the most widespread way that people go about doing that? farming. so who's contradicting himself now?

PS : I only said that, so you wouldn't think I'm supporting gold buyers because I'm one myself. And because you were spouting how people with FoW armours would feel devalued. And since having 3 FoW sets puts me in the position to refute that point, I tossed that in. Get that? The offer to show you in-game, was to shut down any 'YOU CAN"T PROVE THAT' and "YOU DON"T REALLY HAVE THAT' arguments that might arise from that statement. I can, and I will at any time. AND the offer to show you my experience, was to prove, once and for all, that I farmed those ectos myself, and am not a 'cheating' gold buyer. Since I'm pretty sure someone could just be anal and toss that in "YOU DIDN"T REALLY FARM ALL THAT U BOUGHT IT FROM EBAY COS U SUPPORT IT". Get that too?

"lol no one's gonna accuse you of that you're just taking the chance to show off" No one's going to accuse me of that, because I have proven that I can instantly prove him wrong. I'd rather do that, than waste another post telling him so

Economics, heard of it? The Chinese sweatshop owners would have to give a 'good god damn' if NOBODY BOUGHT THE GOLD as they're a business for God's sake! They're not gonna pay people to farm if there's no one to sell it to are they? And i can assure you there are a hell of a lot more people out there that can spare a few hundred dollars than can spare a few 1000 hours (in terms of those who play GW of course) to buy a FOW set. Those who game the most fall into the 21-35 category, i.e not schoolkids and statistically able to afford it. Admittedly there are many who won't buy on ebay because they're simply not bothered about FOW armour or their wife/husband/friends won't let them hear the end of it etc, but there are 1000's more who could afford it AND want it - but they have something called integrity so they don't buy it. Again, i say to you, if the only reason you want FOW armor is to look different then why doesn't it bother you that the number of those that wear it 'illegitimately' are increasing, making it no big deal to own? It seems you delight in wasting your own time as the only reason you do it - to be 'different' - is becoming increasingly irrelevant.

Johno77 · Dec 12, 2005, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xethrion

Am I contradicting myself? Not really. At the current price tag of 100 US per set, I'd like to see everybody who buys gold off eBay walking around in FoW armour. And it'd take a very rich person to match my four sets of Fissure. If he has THAT much money to spend, more power to him. Sadly enough however, the majority of gold buyers, do it in small amounts, just to afford 15k and middle end stuff like Fiery Dragon Swords. Very few of them have the inclination AND the budget to get FoW. Even if everyone was like me, and didn't care if people bought gold off GW, that still wouldn't lower the price of gold on eBay. Because the prices are set by the owners of the Chinese sweatshops, and they couldn't give a good god damn whether people accept it or not, as long as their pockets are lined with cash. Irrelevance again I see.

The only reason I was ranting on about farming, was because you were ranting on about how buying gold cheapens the time everyone spends playing the game to get better looking items. And what's the most widespread way that people go about doing that? farming. so who's contradicting himself now?

PS : I only said that, so you wouldn't think I'm supporting gold buyers because I'm one myself. And because you were spouting how people with FoW armours would feel devalued. And since having 3 FoW sets puts me in the position to refute that point, I tossed that in. Get that? The offer to show you in-game, was to shut down any 'YOU CAN"T PROVE THAT' and "YOU DON"T REALLY HAVE THAT' arguments that might arise from that statement. I can, and I will at any time. AND the offer to show you my experience, was to prove, once and for all, that I farmed those ectos myself, and am not a 'cheating' gold buyer. Since I'm pretty sure someone could just be anal and toss that in "YOU DIDN"T REALLY FARM ALL THAT U BOUGHT IT FROM EBAY COS U SUPPORT IT". Get that too?

"lol no one's gonna accuse you of that you're just taking the chance to show off" No one's going to accuse me of that, because I have proven that I can instantly prove him wrong. I'd rather do that, than waste another post telling him so

Economics, heard of it? The Chinese sweatshop owners would have to give a 'good god damn' if NOBODY BOUGHT THE GOLD as they're a business for God's sake! They're not gonna pay people to farm if there's no one to sell it to are they? And i can assure you there are a hell of a lot more people out there that can spare a few hundred dollars than can spare a few 1000 hours (in terms of those who play GW of course) to buy a FOW set. Those who game the most fall into the 21-35 category, i.e not schoolkids and statistically able to afford it. Admittedly there are many who won't buy on ebay because they're simply not bothered about FOW armour or their wife/husband/friends won't let them hear the end of it etc, but there are 1000's more who could afford it AND want it - but they have something called integrity so they don't buy it. Again, i say to you, if the only reason you want FOW armor is to look different then why doesn't it bother you that the number of those that wear it 'illegitimately' are increasing, making it no big deal to own? It seems you delight in wasting your own time as the only reason you do it - to be 'different' - is becoming increasingly irrelevant. Why are you so desperate to prove you farmed it yourself if you're not bothered about the integrity of Guild Wars?

Xethrion · Dec 12, 2005, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johno77

-snip-
Again I say to you, if the only reason you want FOW armor is to look different then why doesn't it bother you that the number of those that wear it 'illegitimately' are increasing, making it no big deal to own? It seems you delight in wasting your own time as the only reason you do it - to be 'different' - is becoming increasingly irrelevant. Why are you so desperate to prove you farmed it yourself if you're not bothered about the integrity of Guild Wars?

I don't give a damn about your so-called 'integrity of Guild Wars', it's MY integrity that I'm willing to prove, since almost every reply in this thread is directed towards hating the eBayers, and the unwashed masses just love to point fingers

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough. My definition of different does not mean different from everyone else. It means different from the 15k armours. Why did I get my mesmer FoW? Because it had a nice long coat, and didn't make him look like a pansy, like the other 15k armours.
Why did I get my ele FoW? Because it lacks the god damn skirt at the back that waves around when you're running. Etc etc Plus, I can mix and match different armour pieces, and still have a unified look. That's what FoW means to me. Read carefully, I never said I farmed it to set myself apart from the masses, or to feel special. I got it, because I like the look. Perhaps it was my fault for not specifying what kind of 'different' I meant, but now I've made myself clear haven't I?

'different from what most others wear' <-- because most of the 15k armours irritate me for one reason or another, and most people wear the 15k armours or their 1.5k versions (which imho, is even worse). There, clarified. Got that?

Yes, in an ideal world it would be nice for the Chinese farmers to have no market. But frankly, it's just being self righteous to expect every single person to 'have integrity' and to 'stick to the game'. How does one display a lack of integrity by buying a shortcut to what he wants, if he has something he can trade for that? So if a rich man hires a maid to do his housework for him, he's displaying a lack of integrity because he's using a shortcut, when most 'poor' people have to do the chores themself?

And expecting real world factors not to influence a fantasy MMO ( or CORPG in this case), is unrealistic. Because as long as it's played by REAL people, real world factors such as available cash and time available to spend, will affect any MMO. And complaining and condemning and preaching about 'integrity', is just wishful thinking.

PS : Will continue this when I'm back from sleep and my lessons at university, in approximately 15 hours. Fun debate this has been.

darkMishkin · Dec 12, 2005, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johno77

'amateur activists...who then proceed to decorate their serious message with ridiculous smiley faces'

Oh Come on, i suppose you think you're a revolutionary Socialist because you have a picture of Lenin? Maybe you've been instilled with the righteous power to judge others whilst ignoring your own standards? Oh no wait, you're on a forum for Guild Wars, just like Lenin would have been - in days off from the revolutionary cause of course.

Hehe, I have a picture of Lenin under my name because he looks cool. I have at no point on this forum given an indication of my political opinion, because I believe it is not the correct place to do so. If you are truely 'furious' about a situation where Chinese workers farm to feed Americans and Europeans who are short on time: compose a comprehensive and devastating letter, send copies to Anet, the Foriegn Office, eBay, and whoever else you want to annoy. I personally will not be doing this.

EagleEye33 · Dec 12, 2005, 04:57 PM // 16:57

that is sorta what ppl pay for anyway, is the TIME. Beacause if the stupid/lazy ppl would spend the time to see how it easy it is to get somethings, this would all be gone. But there are too many stupid/;azy ppl in the world now, so they dont wanna waste thier time doing it when they can have someone else and play how they want too. Im a little disgusted, but then again I dont care too much, if they wanna spend their hard-earned money on fake oney be my guest let the rest spend it on having a life out side of the cyber world.

Johno77 · Dec 12, 2005, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xethrion

I don't give a damn about your so-called 'integrity of Guild Wars', it's MY integrity that I'm willing to prove, since almost every reply in this thread is directed towards hating the eBayers.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough. My definition of different does not mean different from everyone else. It means different from the 15k armours. Why did I get my mesmer FoW? Because it had a nice long coat, and didn't make him look like a pansy, like the other 15k armours.
Why did I get my ele FoW? Because it lacks the god damn skirt at the back that waves around when you're running. Etc etc Plus, I can mix and match different armour pieces, and still have a unified look. That's what FoW means to me. Read carefully, I never said I farmed it to set myself apart from the masses, or to feel special. I got it, because I like the look. Perhaps it was my fault for not specifying what kind of 'different' I meant, but now I've made myself clear haven't I?

'different from what most others wear' <-- because most of the 15k armours irritate me for one reason or another, and most people wear the 15k armours or their 1.5k versions (which imho, is even worse). There, clarified. Got that?

Yes, in an ideal world it would be nice for the Chinese farmers to have no market. But frankly, it's just being self righteous to expect every single person to 'have integrity' and to 'stick to the game'. How does one display a lack of integrity by buying a shortcut to what he wants, if he has something he can trade for that? So if a rich man hires a maid to do his housework for him, he's displaying a lack of integrity because he's using a shortcut, when most 'poor' people have to do the chores themself?

And expecting real world factors not to influence a fantasy MMO ( or CORPG in this case), is unrealistic. Because as long as it's played by REAL people, real world factors such as available cash and time available to spend, will affect any MMO. And complaining and condemning and preaching about 'integrity', is just wishful thinking.

Since you bring the 'real' world into it, i suppose human rights campaigners, political activists, peace campaigners etc should stop 'complaining and condemning and preaching' about injustices in the world? Maybe we should all just turn the other cheek and accept everything the way it is, heaven forbid if someone calls us self-righteous. Hell, as long as there's someone out there complaining, we can sit happily, content in the knowledge that we can't do anything about it. Don't give me that, its one thing not to care about what happens in the real world, its quite another to comfort yourself by pretending nothing can be done about it or by taking a swipe at those who do care. And yes, if someone buys a shortcut to something that he wants (if it involves the exploitation of another) then it IS displaying a lack of integrity. Just because most people do it, it doesn't make it right - popularity is not legitimacy.

Xethrion · Dec 12, 2005, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johno77

Since you bring the 'real' world into it, i suppose human rights campaigners, political activists, peace campaigners etc should stop 'complaining and condemning and preaching' about injustices in the world? Maybe we should all just turn the other cheek and accept everything the way it is, heaven forbid if someone calls us self-righteous. Hell, as long as there's someone out there complaining, we can sit happily, content in the knowledge that we can't do anything about it. Don't give me that, its one thing not to care about what happens in the real world, its quite another to comfort yourself by pretending nothing can be done about it or by taking a swipe at those who do care. And yes, if someone buys a shortcut to something that he wants (if it involves the exploitation of another) then it IS displaying a lack of integrity. Just because most people do it, it doesn't make it right - popularity is not legitimacy.

It's interesting how you'd bring that in, because yes, I find the 3 groups of people you've just stated, are, imo, wasting their time. What have human rights campaigners been able to do to influence China's abysmal human rights record (tiananmen square anyone? I have yet to see ANY figure in the chinese government punished for that)? What have political activists been able to do to free Aung San Suu Kyi from the oppressive myanmar government's imposed house arrest? Nothing concrete. All they've been able to do is call awareness to the issue, and the general public simply doesn't care if it doesn't affect them adversely. What they HAVE been able to achieve, are minor victories, in mostly democratic countries, where people have the luxury of free speech

And since you say I'm 'pretending nothing can be done about it', how about you come up with constructive suggestion to solve this problem then? The problem IS widespread, the problem IS pervasive to all MMOs, and the problem IS never going to go away. As long as there's a free market, and cheap labour to be exploited in other countries, it will exist.

And if you think you're not 'exploiting others' when you go about your daily life, you're sadly mistaken. Where does your food come from? Where do your cars come from? Your clothes? Your shoes? Isn't that buying shortcuts too? I don't see you doing subsistence farming to feed yourself, or on the manufacturing line making your own cars/clothes/shoes. Consider yourself lucky that you're born into an affluent society, where you can afford to debate about the morality of such things, while the unlucky few, simply don't have the luxury to think about it, and have to go about earning a living. Imperfect? Yes. But capitalism itself does not promote equality. And it's a capitalistic world we live in. Perhaps you see it as too fatalistic to just accept it as 'the way things are'. However, wishing and hoping and theorizing that it could be better will get you nowhere too.

Mimi Miyagi · Dec 12, 2005, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Hmmmm...

Last time I checked, the point of the game wasn't to "Get FOW armor" or "UberGodlyPerfectOMG swords".

The point of the game is exactly what people want to make it. Some think it's PvP. Some people think it's PVE. Some think it's farming for money/stuff. Others think it's a little of everything. But no one has the right to tell others how THEY should perceive a piece of gaming software. No one also has the right to tell others to not play it since they have a "real life" and only play a couple of hours a week.

It's a friggin game, not some socialist society.

I don't much care for ebay gold/items, but I'm certainly not going to tell someone to stop. That's up to ANet, not me. I'm not going to tell someone not to solo UW, it's none of my business. Economy screwed up? ANet should fix it if it's that bad, otherwise, deal with it and move on.

None of those things have any impact on my enjoyment of the game, because I simply don't let it. I don't buy ebay gold, I don't give a rat's butt if you have FoW armor, or a crystaline sword, or 300 sigils in your storage. None of those things impact how I play.

Johno77 · Dec 13, 2005, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xethrion

It's interesting how you'd bring that in, because yes, I find the 3 groups of people you've just stated, are, imo, wasting their time. What have human rights campaigners been able to do to influence China's abysmal human rights record (tiananmen square anyone? I have yet to see ANY figure in the chinese government punished for that)? What have political activists been able to do to free Aung San Suu Kyi from the oppressive myanmar government's imposed house arrest? Nothing concrete. All they've been able to do is call awareness to the issue, and the general public simply doesn't care if it doesn't affect them adversely. What they HAVE been able to achieve, are minor victories, in mostly democratic countries, where people have the luxury of free speech

And since you say I'm 'pretending nothing can be done about it', how about you come up with constructive suggestion to solve this problem then? The problem IS widespread, the problem IS pervasive to all MMOs, and the problem IS never going to go away. As long as there's a free market, and cheap labour to be exploited in other countries, it will exist.

And if you think you're not 'exploiting others' when you go about your daily life, you're sadly mistaken. Where does your food come from? Where do your cars come from? Your clothes? Your shoes? Isn't that buying shortcuts too? I don't see you doing subsistence farming to feed yourself, or on the manufacturing line making your own cars/clothes/shoes. Consider yourself lucky that you're born into an affluent society, where you can afford to debate about the morality of such things, while the unlucky few, simply don't have the luxury to think about it, and have to go about earning a living. Imperfect? Yes. But capitalism itself does not promote equality. And it's a capitalistic world we live in. Perhaps you see it as too fatalistic to just accept it as 'the way things are'. However, wishing and hoping and theorizing that it could be better will get you nowhere too.

I've seen some sanctimonius misguided threads in my time but this one really does cap them all i think. Firstly, the main thrust of you argument is wrong, flatout untrue, completely misinformed. You'd have never even heard of Tiannamen square if it wasn't for protestors/activists etc, Mandela wouldn't have been freed, you or someone you know would have to sit at the back of the bus for being black, women wouldn't have the vote...i don't need to go on. Human agency drives the wheels of change my friend and Capitalism breeds apathy amongst the masses in order to protect itself - those who think otherwise are ignorant in the extreme. And secondly, 'you don't see me' doing anything because you have no idea who i am, where i shop, what i eat, what political action i take and so on - don't tar everyone with the same brush. Oh, and theorizing can't change the world? Of course not on its own, but it is vital in mobilising those that DO change it - try telling Lenin & Trotsky for a start that theory did nothing for them. That's it - final post from me, thanks for the discussion.

You're right though - it has been a fun discussion