Curse

felinette · Apr 24, 2006, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stabber

The problem in a nutshell is that you are seeking variety in a style of play where variety has no tangible benefits. The opponents you face will have no variety, and neither will their strategies. Why deviate from what's known to work?

Fun. It's a game--why not try new things? Most people aren't on their first character. Why would they want to do the same mission in the exact "same" group they did it in last time?

I do see your point, though. But for me, gaming is about fun. I'd like to finish the mission, but I'd like to have fun doing it, too. And I do like a good challenge.

And I believe that it would be easier to form pick-up groups, regardless of build, if the game had support for doing so beyond chat.

Ninetail Trickster · Apr 24, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

...wow.
Internet. Serious Business.

Cookie-Cutter groups exist. They work, too.
Many want something that works, not something fun; they forget that you can have fun playing a game, not just savoring the victories in it.
-shrug-
Just my take.

Str0b0 · Apr 24, 2006, 06:31 PM // 18:31

I don't get this fun point either? Who says I'm not having fun just because I'm in a proven group build? For me the fun is in finding things. I honestly prefer solo play and as such I have unique solo builds that I do not share because then they would get nerfed all to hell. Still the fact remains that as long as I'm finding things, as long as I'm getting drops and as long as I'm killing things I'm having fun.

Stabber · Apr 24, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by felinette

I believe that it would be easier to form pick-up groups, regardless of build, if the game had support for doing so beyond chat.

On this point I agree with you 100%. The game desperately needs some UI support for LFG and trade uses.

Phaern Majes · Apr 24, 2006, 06:36 PM // 18:36

All I can say is, Faction will greatly alleviate this problem (if it is a problem) for a month or so. So there ya go, you can be the one that designs these cookie builds. Problem solved

floplag · Apr 24, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

the "cookie cutter" mentality has roots in two places .... the previously mentioned "tried and true" methods, which of course have some merit... and the "lemming" method for those that simply cant think for themselves

i get sick of them for the basic reasons that some of them are outright untrue or incomplete, and other are far to narrow minded and limit the gameplay

i think the one that kills me the most is the recent "we need 2 monks for everything" mentality. its gotten silly. one good monk can do it if the rest of the team has brain cell 1. 2 is a crutch in most places, and can actually make some things harder as you have less damage dealing

my guild has been very good at testing and trying alot of alternates and have had terrific success across the board

yes, memsers and rangers can be effective in SF

yes, things other than B/P work just fine in ToPK

i think you can figure the rest.

Evilsod · Apr 24, 2006, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Ah yes good ol' cookie cutter groups. Places like SF where 5man teams w/ SS and MM i'm not gonna deny anything, they are the best tried and tested methods of clearing it if each member knows his role.

Things like your usual very boring '1 Stance Warrior, 1 Bonder, 1 Healer, 1 Prot, 3 Eles, 1 SS for FoW group' just suck though. They work? Yeah right they do, moment your bonder leaves your tank is stuffed. Warrior drops your almost royally buggered. An ele goes you won't notice a sodding thing becuase 1 is enough if they're good enough.
The only thing that bugs me is when you see Blood necros down there, blood is really crap in terms of FoW imo, of course this is probably because both times the morons didn't bring BR, why go blood and not bring that!?

Barrage/pet however, i've tried various methods for it like
6 R/x, 1 Healer, 1 MM (the lack of firepower sucked, specially when people left).
5 R/x, 1 Healer, 1 Order, 1 Stance warrior (i hate this set so much, all the warrior does is die).
5 R/x, 1 Healer, 1 Order, 1 MM (this works, it works well, and it clears FoW, why change anything?)

Course you can always change Healer for Boon prot, the best monk i've seen down there used a mix of heal and prot (guardian mainly i think) and kept even my necro alive.

Ring of Fire is a completely different matter. I see people around Thirsty River searching for SS necros and MMs (as if noobs even know what the 2 are). What the hell for? You don't need specific builds to get through missions at all, i managed it once with 3 Necros (1 at lvl8, other 2 around 15-18), my W/N, Orion and Alesia. Whats more amazing is no-one died and we didn't have an SS, the lvl8 was an MM but it didn't matter much

).

What about those 8-mesmer teams to UW? It may not be quite as fast as some other builds, but i can guarantee it'll be ALOT more amusing. I remember reading a thread somewhere around here that specified not using a 55 monk tank down there. Strange, this worked quite well:
55 monk w/ SB
SS/SV necro
Fire ele w/ Vengeance/Rebirth (mine)
2 Barragers w/ Rebirth (maybe Vengeance, never found out)

1 Ranger had to go at Twin Serpent Mountain, the other stayed back throughout the entire Chaos Planes while the 3 of us cleared it then helped for the Spawning Pools. After that it was a 3man team to clear the Bone Pits. Did every single quest down there except Four Horseman.

The trip went even faster than the 8-man trip a week or 2 earlier where 1 of the monks did jack shit (he was the worst bonder i've ever seen and kept casting SB on the warrior even when he wasn't under attack), another infuser kept randomly infusing the warrior tank when he didn't even need healing. Note it was the monks in this team that were bad, 1 of them was good, the other 2 seemed clueless.

demon dantes · Apr 24, 2006, 07:16 PM // 19:16

can u beat a mission fairlly easy with a cookie build yes u can, y do ppl do it cause there lazy and fly through the game then bich when they r done and have nothing to do. i went through the game 3 times with 1 char to play different styles lol it s always fun to see if 1 monk can heal 7 ppl lol of course 3 monks can heal a whole party were s the fun in that. and half the times the 3 monks fail anyway s lol. but to get mad or cry cause u can t get into a grp because of this start ur own grp there r always ppl out there who don t care about cookie grps either that can t get into those grps. it is the grps of ppl who can t get into a cookie grp that r the most fun stop cryin over cookies and start making ur own lol.

felinette · Apr 24, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by demon dantes

i went through the game 3 times with 1 char to play different styles lol

That's a neat idea. I might try that with one of my characters, though I guess the earlier missions will be super easy at lvl 20.

Quote:

stop cryin over cookies and start making ur own lol.

I've started forming my own groups for missions I'm familiar with, but I don't feel comfortable doing it for missions I'm not that familiar with. Often the group expects the one who formed the group to lead, as in direct where to go and what to do, and for the later missions, I can't do that (yet). And even when I've formed my own group, there will sometimes be someone in the group insisting that we advertise for a certain type of build. I suppose I could kick them...perhaps I will next time.

Would still like a better way to form groups, though.

Yanman.be · Apr 24, 2006, 07:44 PM // 19:44

I believe my call for a full R/N toucher group in THK was a bit overexaggerated (sp? ), but it must be possible!

Kakumei · Apr 24, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48

When did 'cookie-cutter' become a synonym for 'efficient'?

Sidra · Apr 24, 2006, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Being 14, I take offence to some of the posts regarding the "children" on the game, but besides that.

I go r/me everywhere too, and nobody will take it. In Tombs (b/p or balanced, doesn't matter) if you aren't a r/mo, nobody wants you because you dont have "zomgleetrebirthnooblololiamtehnoob" rebirth.

People also don't like my mesmer because it's not e-denial. In PVE. WTF?

But the worst thing had to be when my friend and I worked ourselves out a really nice heal/prot build (2 person, one heal, one prot) and we had 3 leavers (in THK, not surprising) in the first 2 minutes because everyone was wondering where my divine boon was.

I can feel the assassin hatred from miles away with the impending Factions, too. I wonder what kind of builds were emerge with the new skills and areas. Hopefully less set-made-kickifyounotleet crap, or I may quit. That's how annoying this game is getting.

Carinae · Apr 24, 2006, 07:52 PM // 19:52

I sense a thread closing approaching......

felinette · Apr 24, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidra

But the worst thing had to be when my friend and I worked ourselves out a really nice heal/prot build (2 person, one heal, one prot) and we had 3 leavers (in THK, not surprising) in the first 2 minutes because everyone was wondering where my divine boon was.

Story along similar lines: My monk (pure healer) was invited into a group at THK. I accepted. Group leader says, "Are you a bonder?" I say, "No." He says, "Great. Change." Then kicks me before I have a chance to say anything. So I thought, whatever, sounded rude, anyway. The guy has the nerve to invite me back five seconds later. I guess the group gave him grief for kicking me after they'd been looking for a monk for god knows how long. I ignored him, went out with another group that didn't have a bonder, finished the mission easily. You don't need a bonder for THK. I've done that mission now with four characters, and there hasn't been a bonder in any of the groups.

Yanman.be · Apr 24, 2006, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Sidra, you're 14, and you're on these forums, therefor, you do not apply as w/mo m3nd1ng kid.

I'm gonna henchie Factions, period.

Mimi Miyagi · Apr 24, 2006, 08:23 PM // 20:23

From someone that does a ton of farming groups in SF or Tombs....

1). The "cookie cutter" builds are there for a reason, much like IWAY. They work, they are efficient, everyone knows their roles, the maps, and how things function as a whole. It's more efficient in a PUG to be part of an established build than to try and explain to seven other people what their roles are and what they need to do every single time - or to have 4 different people ordering everyone how to play the map. Cookie cutter builds just about eliminates the confusion.
2). Farming groups are there to farm - they are not there to listen to people whine about why their water ele can't get into the group.
3) There is NOTHING stopping you from forming your own party. What gives you the right to demand (or even worse, come on a gaming forum and act like a petulant child) entrance into a party?
4) Isn't this like the 4th thread this month about this same subject?
5) That's why ANet invented friends lists and guild chat channels.

hunter · Apr 24, 2006, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Cookie cutter builds have been proven to be more effective at getting the mission done compared to a balanced group in many occasions.

a B/p group can clear tombs twice as fast as a balanced group. On top of that, a B/p has little risk in wiping.

Many people simply don't feel like taking chances or simply spend more time to get the mission done.

And that is acceptable, why spend 2+ hours to clear tombs when you can do it in a little more than 1 hour. Why take your chances with those two warriors would should they die a couple of times will just be a liability to the rest.

No one wants to spend those 2+ hours with a normal group and on top of that risk a party wipe and go back home empty handed. Same mentality goes for the other campaign of mission, the ones which are considered "hard" even though they can be beaten with henchies *cough*THK*cough*.

felinette · Apr 24, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

The "cookie cutter" builds are there for a reason, much like IWAY. They work, they are efficient, everyone knows their roles, the maps, and how things function as a whole.

Actually, I've been in a number of PUGs containing cookie-cutter builds where people don't know the maps or their roles, and where several people are trying to lead. Maybe farming groups are different--I don't farm, so I wouldn't know. I'm was talking about groups for the storyline missions, as my OP indicates.

Quote:

3) There is NOTHING stopping you from forming your own party. What gives you the right to demand (or even worse, come on a gaming forum and act like a petulant child) entrance into a party?

Well, I stated elsewhere in the thread why starting my own group won't work for all missions. I haven't demanded that I be allowed entry into a group, nor have I acted like a petulant child. I've just said that it can be difficult to get into groups, even if you have a cookie-cutter build, because some players believe there's only one way to quickly and efficiently beat a particular mission.

Manda Panda · Apr 24, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by demon dantes

can u beat a mission fairlly easy with a cookie build yes u can, y do ppl do it cause there f in lazy

Presumably, that's the same reason people can't be bothered to spell out entire words or use the shift key.

bobrath · Apr 24, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

For the current prophecies world (pre faction skill invasion), the cookie cutter builds are prevalent because they are the most resistant to less then leet players.

If you're running a B/P group in tombs and one or two rangers bring Poison Arrow instead of Barrage... you'll still do alright and the two rangers will learn as they see the differences. Yes there are critical players in most cookie cutter builds - if the MM doesn't have a clue in Tombs, your monk will most likely ragequit.

2 of my 4 chars are cookie cutter capable builds. Why? because sometimes I enjoy being able to get right into a mission or farm run without spending 20+ minutes trying to form up a group. When I take my two non-typical builds into the wide, wide world; I always form my own groups. I know my Me/R char is never going to get an invite - so I spend a bit of time finding the other oddballs and then have a great time getting through the quest or run.

I accept cookie cutters for what they are - a way for "forum based experts" to group up and enjoy the game while leaving a nice sidebar of folks that actually "get" GW and are willing to experiment and learn.