Curse

pbspectre · May 04, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stabber

Ask yourself this: why would a company that has embraced elitism so thoroughly be open to complaints from people on this thread? The very name "Elite Mission" should be a dead giveaway. It is disappointing perhaps to be denied access to these missions, but it was highly predictable (and predicted) that the game would be this way.

The very name "Elite Mission" is a misnomer. The word "Elite" implies that only those of high skill levels will be able to access it. This is not the case. Only those who are in the correct Alliance and are willing to grind (which takes little or no actual skill) will be able to access the missions.

felinette · May 04, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by eudas

I'm not even trying to be an Anet apologist for it. It probably is broken and/or badly designed. I'm just reacting against the "Wah! You didn't just automatically *give* it to me!" sort of reaction that I'm hearing here. Jesus Christ, people, that's what competition *means*.

You're missing the point. Again. There shouldn't be any competition in PvE in the first place.

Quote:

That's just silly. Why shouldnt there be competition?

Because it's Player vs. Environment.

Fitz Rinley · May 04, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrajan

What's so bad about PvP? This is a competitive online rpg, and they've made great efforts to accomodate people for other content and types of play.

This is not now, nor has it ever shown signs of being, an RPG. One who plays a role has a dynamic character development where obstacles cause internal psychological changes to the environment. A good example is the movie Braveheart whom peole often think is about Mel Gibson's character William Wallace. Wallace is a static persona, flat and undeveloping in all attributes. The real hero of the story is not Wallace, but the narator Sir Robert the Bruce who changes from a son obedient and manipulative without conscience for his clan to a believer in things greater than himself willing to sacrifice and fight for those ideals. A role played character can also devolve into something unholy and vile. It is the response choices and changes of the character that create a played role. This, and most other so-called on-line RPGs fail to have any kind of charcter molding. They are merely MMOGs.

What is bad about PvP is the fraud and malice that have come to be synonomous with it.

1) PvP was advertised as an option one could do, not a requirement one must do - Fraud.
2) A minority of PvP elite players control access to PvE content areas from casual and other players who will never be able to put in the time to become PvP elite. This uses the force of PvP elite/professional players to deny playability to those who paid for it - Theft by Force.
3) The lack of chivalry and requirement for chivalry in PvP supports the worst human traits of boastfulness, unsportsman like conduct, immaturity, and chauvanistic opposition (meaning regional Chauvinism).
a) No team should be permitted to engage in combat who has not greeted and soluted each other.
b) No team should be permitted to leave the match before they have saluted and congratulated their opponents for their efforts.
c) No player should be permitted to denigrate the efforts at using the skills of fellow players without being banned.

Quote:

Can't you appreciate the work they've done, or go to another PvE specific game?

Why should we have to go to another game when they have thru negligence of telling the truth sold us a product they knew we would not like? The outcry thus far is about things done TO us by ANet which they knew would be unappreciated by their clientelle. They did not provide things based on inspiration. From a quote above it appears they wanted to capture a segment of the market that has sophisticated tastes and then dumb them down to the desired company standard of fellow player bashing (PvP). They are still trying to force onto the public a product the majority are disgruntled with or detest for exceptionally good reasons. The game they are trying to force us to play is not the game we bought as Prophecies. They have altered the game we bought as Prophecies. A continued move in this direction will minimize their fan base.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eudas

They should've rethought that as soon as they realized they were asking the general public to work for something.

So you feel that someone spending 8-10 hours a day pouring hot alluminum into molds while someone yells over their shoulder to move faster, get that, grab this, etc. is supposed to come home to some kid screaming over the IM Faster, faster, faster!, Go, go, go!, Do this, block that, kill him, etc. as a form of casual relaxation. Or are you one of these that thinks anyone over 18 should just be a dead non-person lobotomized into accepting a dull, labor intensive, existence without any relief other than a 4-6 hour nap?

Quote:

I think that you should know that this is, ultimately, what is limiting you from obtaining access to these area -- your unwillingness to join a larger guild or guild alliance, even for a short time.

It's not that you're being limited so much as it is that you're limiting yourself.

If I join a larger guild then I can benefit from their larger numbers able to gain more faction. I must also sacrifice my personal expression. I have become quite aware that many people here do not wish to be more than drones for someone else's ideas and ideals. I am not one of those persons. Nor should any American be such. My coat of arms on my cape holds specific meanings for me, as do the symbols used by many in the game. I have one friend who changes her colors with the seasons because it brings into their recreation things this friend believes in. In their case they are a small guild - who is no more likely to ever have access than a one person guild. I want to quote you something to think about:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley to ANet

When I began discussing the Guild vs Guild system and how it excluded many last November-December, I promted the idea of how neat it would be if Guilds could make alliances with each other and individuals that would allow more inclusive cooperative play. I may not have been the first to think of alliances but I was the first I saw discuss it.

In such a manner, a host could be the guild scheduling an event and their friends who like having their own personal expression in the form of their own coats of arms and colors would join them. As the combattants on a field have their cloaks colored red or blue it would not matter if another persons symbolism was similar or the same as one on the other team. This would be inclusive of all players and personality types.

Instead the game has been set up with exclusionary power aimed at detroying peoples self-value and expression. One must now submit to membership in the largest guild possible in order to have access to advanced areas and game play. Any individualist, introvert, some I know how are disabled and treated poorly by your other customers, etc. must destroy their coat of arms/colors and guild to play.

This is not inclusive. It is exclusive of others. If all you want is meat on a hook without a brain, the local butcher shop can still supply it.

Fitz Rinley

primal98 · May 04, 2006, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by felinette

You're missing the point. Again. There shouldn't be any competition in PvE in the first place.

Why not? I dont see any reason why PvE can't have some competion. If we get rid of competetion, why even bother have it online?

~prime

Lasher Dragon · May 04, 2006, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Kiwi

Patience, padawan.

Indeed, ANet has a very good track record of listening to it's customers and finding ways to make people happy. TBH I am nowhere near far enough in the game to even think about an "Elite Mission". Give them a couple few weeks and see what happens.

heaven · May 04, 2006, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Give us a new UW/FOW in Cantha and you can do Elite missions the way you want Anet. Most of casual players will have high content (UW/FOW) to play and hardcore alliances can have their elite missions to play with. Everyone will be happy!

cherikku · May 04, 2006, 04:35 PM // 16:35

O_O applause, nicely written.

Gli · May 04, 2006, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by eudas

To quote Penny-Arcade (http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2004/20040324h.jpg), the upper levels of this game are most likely "not FOR you", then. It's entirely possible that you fall outside the target demographic on this one.

This *is* a "CORPG", after all -- Competitive Online RPG. If you want to be competitive, you have to put in the time and effort, and some sections (namely, Elite Missions) are all about the competition.

eudas

p.s. that comic makes me giggle every time.

eudas

You know I get god-damned annoyed of reading the same inane responses time and time again? Did you read anything I and many others have posted before? Did you? Did you understand it or even try to understand it?

Here we go again...

It doesn't matter how much time I put in, nor how much effort. It doesn't matter how 'competitive' I am, how skilled, and how well I perform in my guild's instance of whatever we're playing at any given time. None of it amounts to anything. Whatever we do, it won't be enough. No, we have to become part of something that's totally irrelevant to what you actually do when you're playing the game. An alliance with a huge group of people.

How is it irrelevant? Simple, when my guild gets together to play, we're all in our own instance of the game. We can't influence anything outside the scope of that. A well-designed, fair game should stop the buck there. Such a game would reward players for playing the game how it can be played. Having these rewards depend on how other players perform in their own private instances adds a nonsensical level of metagaming.

Prophecies was this well-designed game. Everything in that game could and can be accomplished by a small team of players. A small guild can do well at GvG, can hold the HoH, can play each and every area. All of that without worrying about what other people are up to in their own instances. Life was good on Tyria. People were rewarded for the time the spend playing, their skill and determination, their 'competitiveness'. Not like in Factions, where the number of allies you have is the most important factor.

thelessa · May 04, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

I am sure that my little 2 man guild is not going to be asked for an alliance of any kind, so no high level content for us.

felinette · May 04, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voltaire Arcanum

Anet sees that small guilds limit the enjoyment of the game for their members

Really? Four of my characters are guildless and I've been having a blast with Prophecies for months. You don't need a guild to have fun, or at least, you didn't used to have to.

Iskrah · May 04, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by primal98

Why not? I dont see any reason why PvE can't have some competion. If we get rid of competetion, why even bother have it online?

~prime

Cooperation?

Is that REALLY such a foreign concept to you?

pbspectre · May 04, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by primal98

If we get rid of competetion, why even bother have it online?

~prime

One word: Interaction

i mean, my guild has ppl from LA, NYC, Alabama, Iowa, Tenessee, UK and Australia...do you think i would have met these ppl if i had just been sitting at my PC playing a non-online RPG?

Alleji · May 04, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

a) No team should be permitted to engage in combat who has not greeted and soluted each other.
b) No team should be permitted to leave the match before they have saluted and congratulated their opponents for their efforts.
c) No player should be permitted to denigrate the efforts at using the skills of fellow players without being banned.

d) No team should be permitted to fight for the altar in the HoH and instead must share it with fellow players

Yeah, let's all play nice.

If you're all for roleplaying, when was the last time you've seen two opposing armies salute and congratulate each other before being beaten to a bloody pulp? And taunts in fights are absolutely unheard of, right?

Gli · May 04, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by eudas

i'm not defending the alliance thing, it may very well be broken, but what i'm seeing a lot of is players who haven't even exhibited that they're willing to *try* to be competitive, even a *little*. in fact, they've exhibited the exact opposite in their whining. I mean, seriously... as i said before, it's a *competitive* online RPG... competitive is a key word there. if you're not willing to be competitive to any degree, then maybe you're playing the wrong game.

eudas

Incorrigable nonsense. You have no idea at all what anyone who's complaining here is doing with his time in the game. As a wise man once said: "Assumption is the mother of a F-ups."

Cymboric Treewalker · May 04, 2006, 04:42 PM // 16:42

I personally like this setup because...

PvE play actually IMPACTS if you have access to the content or not; FoW and UW were ONLY impacted by HoH.

I can form an alliance with multiple guilds and HAVE and EARN the right to this content. Earn being the key word. I wanted there to be some thing that PvE players could have/hold that showed what they had accomplished. The Titles are a good start... the Fact that I can get "bonus" elite missions by working hard with my guildies and my alliance members is fantastic.

Oh... I also think that some of you have MISSED that the more faction you have the faster you lose it. Imagine you earning faction and saving it up over a month... then you ALL go and turn it in... you would have a chance at getting that elite content then... but it would evaporate quickly... but you would have a chance.

felinette · May 04, 2006, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by primal98

Why not? I dont see any reason why PvE can't have some competion. If we get rid of competetion, why even bother have it online?

Cooperation. If you want competition against other people, you PvP. PvE isn't about competition. That's what you need to understand in order to understand some of the complaints about the system in Factions.

shadowfell · May 04, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Has anyone else been reading the guild tags, of the majority of the people speaking so adamantly FOR the continuation of this elitist mission bs? I guess now a popular running guild can't charge, what was it, 350k for a "world tour", it's time to close up shop and ride the faction express into elitism.

And I just thought to add this, since the above mentioned point of a 'hobby as casual play, or a relaxing, enjoying time" Sort of sprang to mind just now, and the farce that GW has become, as I have pvp'd several times, and having to listen to:

"block the mother RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOer"
"what the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO are you assholes doing"
"are you a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing idiot!!?"

Not to mention the crap we ALL have seen in local chat, after a match, during a match:

"U suck n00bz, RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO you noobz, i RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed your mother, noobz"

Just general, screamed rage at, the other team, my own team, whether just basic venting, or someone who cannot control their temper, I do not know.. and this happens in guilds from the bottom to the top. Even the "nice guy" guild leaders blow up when the shit hits the fan. It is very common.

You can't deny this happens, it is all over the place, in any district. Those who think they are better than YOU. And they will go out of their way to prove it, so now AN gives them their own little playgrounds to rub in your faces, and they will. Hooray for the 1% who live, breath and sleep, guild wars, if and when they sleep. Boo to the average gamers who do happen to have jobs, wives, kids, or life outside of GW in general. It will only get worse. The community is becoming more malicious, more hateful of the fellow gamer and the barrier between the pvp and pve sides of the game has gone up like the berlin wall. I think some egos are big enough, already. An is just adding oil to the fire, at this point.

Why the hell should I have to put up with this crap, in my free time and in order to access 100% of the content. Why is AN promoting this WAW theme and using us, the players as the cannon fodder. Do they even realize, how much of a rift this is going to further drive between pve, pvp and the players who are just confused to begin with, and now, completely excluded in their 2-3 man guilds of 'friends'? More like, do they even =care=? How is a game that makes me more tense than my worst phobia, really supposed to be hyped as casual yet competetive fun for the whole family.

I stood in a mission, faction controlled area for about, 1 hour, 35 minutes, trying to get a group, or get into a group for the mission. All I saw was:

"Lfg for faction farming, must be w/mo, ne/me, ne/mo"

Repeatedly, over and over and over again. Not one time was anyone looking to actually do the mission.

How is this even competition at this point.. The above is no different than:

"lfg for oro farm, gear tank, mm, ss, bond, heal, no NOOBZ"

Thanks for the grind, I will clearly pass on it, coupled with the attitudes I am going to have to put up with now from these so called, "elite players", This is no longer a game. It's high school and you're the kid standing under a bucket of pigs blood. The only way you will get a taste of anything remotely awesome, or what is hyped as awesome in this game, is if you kiss an ass, pay a 50k fee, or ebay enough gold to buy some leetsauce daggers.

Shame on you AN.

The Herbalizer · May 04, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

d) No team should be permitted to fight for the altar in the HoH and instead must share it with fellow players

Exactly. Cant have people winning halls and getting all these nice items. Not fair on those who dont want to put the effort in.

Ctb · May 04, 2006, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Why not? I dont see any reason why PvE can't have some competion. If we get rid of competetion, why even bother have it online?

For one thing, could you imagine the greifing that would ensue? It's bad enough when you get some moron just trying to pester you in a small skirmish in RA, I can't imagine what would happen if "competetion" came into the PvE environments and you could have a runner running all over an open map to agitate everyone o__0

Besides, again, nobody focuses on the problem with the model, instead choosing to focus on the model itself.

Getting bonuses for "excelling" (if that's what you want to call being addicted to a video game) is one thing. Being penalized by not being able to access entire portions of the game is completely different. This is Favor all over again. Unless you choose to play exactly how Anet tells you to play - which is at complete odds with their "chose your play style" marketing lie - you can't play but a limited selection of the game you paid for. The "reward" for doing what you're told is that you get to play what you paid for, which is a pretty shitty "reward".

I bought the damn game, I want to play it. I'm not going to buy a game that I have to devote hours at a time to just so I can play what I paid for.

samifly · May 04, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymboric Treewalker

I personally like this setup because...

PvE play actually IMPACTS if you have access to the content or not; FoW and UW were ONLY impacted by HoH.

I can form an alliance with multiple guilds and HAVE and EARN the right to this content. Earn being the key word. I wanted there to be some thing that PvE players could have/hold that showed what they had accomplished. The Titles are a good start... the Fact that I can get "bonus" elite missions by working hard with my guildies and my alliance members is fantastic.

Oh... I also think that some of you have MISSED that the more faction you have the faster you lose it. Imagine you earning faction and saving it up over a month... then you ALL go and turn it in... you would have a chance at getting that elite content then... but it would evaporate quickly... but you would have a chance.

What, you think every skill change that was meant for PVP didnt effect us PVE'rs?

Edit: You can only save up 10k faction before turning it in.