Curse

carbajac · Jun 01, 2006, 07:42 AM // 07:42

This thread is funny. So much Hench hate. As soon as I saw the enemies run away from Orion's Firestorm, I stopped bringing the Elementalist henchmen.

That Dredge AI is real good. I try to get the henchmen to kill that Gardner, while the Dredge Assassin and Warrior run through everyone right to my monk and hit real hard.

Erys and the Luxon Ranger Interrupt guy are awesome. They interrupt stuff I know I wouldn't even try to interrupt without an attached hex to slow spellcasting, but I'm not a good Mesmer or Ranger so...yeah.

But back to the monk Hench. I've done most of Factions with Henchmen too, but not without a lot of respawning. Spamming Blessed Light and Jamei's Gaze all the time can't be good on their energy. I think ANet knew their energy wasn't going to last long so they gave them that Signet...so that now they can have no energy and heal slowly. I do miss Alesia (if only she didn't bring that Heal Touch) and Lina. I do hope that the Hench AI improves, especially since the mobs are a lot tougher in Factions.

Tijger · Jun 01, 2006, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Young Hero

blah-blah-blah

So its safe to say , when with Henchies you need Rez because they are quaranteed to aggro and guaranteed to die.8 slots and I have to carry a frigging rez even with a god dayum rit and healer.
Bottom line-henchies suc.

Sorry, but I never ever play without having some form of rez with me unless I'm solo'ing. Its simply good practice.

aron searle · Jun 01, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

These threads never die do they.

When will people learn, henchies do not "suc" as someone put it, maybe they are not being used properly, 90% of the game is completable with them.

And really, you should be bringing res signet ect, in a HUMAN team, so why complain about bringing them with henchies.

Some people need to learn to play, so here is some help

Quote:

Ok this is a work in progress and im trying to find the old one i already made.

The henchies themselves.
First off all which henchies you choose can make a huge difference. including yourself, you ideally want...
2x Tanks
2x Support (healer/protection/rit hench)
1x Interupt/Mesmer
1x Nuker (the scatter effect can buy you seconds of enemy confusion)
1x Necro
1x Other
Dont use the assasin henchie, he aggros when he shouldnt, and dies because he tanks.

Your skills.
Remember you are in esence playing with very basic AI, account for that in your skills. If you can bring spells that will buff (watch yourself) or protect a member (healing hands), these are just examples to get you thinking, and remember you can change secondary so dont get stuck in a havit of always being and W/MO for instance.
You really need to concentrate on the healers, always bring a res signet and save it for when they die, and use your protection or buff spells 90% on them. (EDIT = this is not neccassary, but if you do have buff skills depending on your class, bring them)

Mob control The caster way.
As you approach a mob, stay out of agro range. Pick a target and call it ( DO NOT ATTACK YOURSELF, EVEN A WAND ATTACK), keep calling it untill the your henchies run ahead, once you are sure they are attacking it, call once more stick out tongue, it should now be safe for you to attack with minimall agro risk.
Really assasins dont fit in either group, but they are priority targets with weaker armour, so i recomend fitting them in the caster role for Mob control.

Mob control the warrior way.
Same principle, pick a target and keep calling it untill they are enganged, however you can attack first. If you do not call targets useing either method, the henchies will react more slowly.

More to come when i find my guide

Quote:

One thing a lot of people don't know is that you do have a bit of control over the henchies.
Thuggie mentioned that your henchies will attack a target you've called with a range slightly larger than agro range, so you can call a target and inch up to that mob, staying out of agro until the hench warriors run ahead and draw agro.

Also, you can cause them to disengage. Repeatedly double clicking on your own health bar on the party list issues a follow command to your henchies. If you want to run away, start running and clicking your own health bar like mad. All of your henchies, including the pesky warriors that ran way into the thick of the battle, will disengage and take of running after you. This can help you stop your henchies from running ahead or chasing fleeing foes. Mobs in factions have a tendency to run towards the next nearest mob, hoping to lure a henchie into drawing agro on another mob before you're ready to deal with it. A quick flurry of clicks on your health bar pulls the leash on them.

If your henchies have a called target, selecting a new target without attacking it will not cause the henchies to switch. I don't think casting a non attack spell on your new target (like a hex or something) will cause the henchies to switch either. What will cause them to switch to your new target is if you hit your new target with a wand or staff attack or something, or if you use an attack spell like flare or lightning strike or some other type of direct damage.

That's all I can think of right now.

The double clicking on your own health bar to retract your henchies is probably the most useful and important thing to know, especially while retreating from the battle to prevent a new mob from wandering into the agro range of your henchie warrior.

Quote:

Another method that can work is the attack whilst retreating method.

Do your best to pull the minimum amount, and run. The SECOND they start losing interest, turn around and start smacking the nearest enemy, they will 99% of the time all start chasing you again, but after 2-3 times of doing this ~(moving further away each time)~ it will get to the point that only the mob you attack will carry on following and the rest can lose interest.

The ai in this game can be abit funny though, sometimes it works flawlessly, sometimes they won’t EVER stop chasing you.

I just want to stress again, the assassin is shit, after several people tried telling me it isn’t. Well on your head be it if you take the assassin henchmen. I have seen it teleport into un-aggrod groups, which is enough already to dump it.
But more importantly it tanks (intermittedly), you may not notice it unless you are looking at the health bars, but it really hogs the heals to the determent of the rest of the henchmen.

And one last thing to add.

Call targets CONSTANTLY. dont just call your first target, have a second target ready to call before AND NOT after the first one dies. The more you call targets when one dies, the quicker your henchies will react, if you dont call they may attack a different target for a few seconds to the one you are attacking. Remember to (generally) attack elementalists first, then mesmers/necros/monks, and finnally warriors/assasins. Elementalists in factions do LOTS of damage, which is why they can be primary targets in most situations.

Would you call targets in a human team = yes

So dont forget to do it with henchies either.

Evilsod · Jun 01, 2006, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Reading Arons post. Which bright spark at Anet decided to make it so that to make henchies retreat you need to click your health bar? They spent all that time but never once thought of having a Henchman menu with commands that Gran said earlier. At the most basic of levels i'd like to have a 'Offensive, Defensive and Pasive' modes. If any of you have played Total Annihilation before i mean like Fire at Will, Return Fire and Hold Fire.
Offensive they attack anything that comes close
Defensive they attack anything that attacks them
Passive you could let a lvl5 Bear kill them and they wouldn't flinch.

At least if you want to retreat you could quite easily switch them to Passive and run off.

ShadowStorm · Jun 01, 2006, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbspectre

QFT...when i was first working my way through Echovald, i was really suprised by the dredge groups...the squishies stay in the back and the melee's block fairly well...

why is it at comparable levels, the enemy AI completely owns the hench AI??

Speaking of which, have you noticed that if you're owning a non-warrior mob, the mob will, after about 2 seconds, break off combat and run about 50 feet straight away from your group. If you have any warrior or assassin henchmen in your group, they will immediately give chase. This often will aggro even more mobs. I sure wish I could get the monk henchmen to kite like that...

aron searle · Jun 01, 2006, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Reading Arons post. Which bright spark at Anet decided to make it so that to make henchies retreat you need to click your health bar? They spent all that time but never once thought of having a Henchman menu with commands that Gran said earlier. At the most basic of levels i'd like to have a 'Offensive, Defensive and Pasive' modes. If any of you have played Total Annihilation before i mean like Fire at Will, Return Fire and Hold Fire.
Offensive they attack anything that comes close
Defensive they attack anything that attacks them
Passive you could let a lvl5 Bear kill them and they wouldn't flinch.

At least if you want to retreat you could quite easily switch them to Passive and run off.

Theres a link somewhere (which i cant be arsed to look for) where they said in an interview, tactical commands would be a factions feature.

So its "coming soon"............

Queenie · Jun 01, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera

Ce L L: My health is 480 of 485!
Jamei / Sister Tai: *ORISON OF HEALING - JAMEI'S GAZE - INFUSE HEALTH - HEALING SEED - SIGNET OF DEVOTION - HEAL PARTY*
Ce L L: -_-"
Ce L L: My health is 10 of 485!
Jamei / Sister Tai: ...
Ce L L: My health is 8 of 485!
Ce L L: My health is 5 of 485!
Ce L L: I'm dead!
Jamei / Sister Tai: ...
Ce L L: Grbml...

^^ That's how it usually goes

Those two are the most pathetic/dumb healer hench ever.
They don't heal you in mid combat while you casually have a 8- degen from conjure nightmare they just heal the other hench + you have to wait like 5 minutes until one of them actully rez you.

Ah, I miss Lina and Alseia ;__;

CyberNigma · Jun 01, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

These threads never die do they. When will people learn, henchies do not "suc" as someone put it, maybe they are not being used properly, 90% of the game is completable with them.

I've done both games (mostly) with henchies (as well as with groups on various characters), including THK and the three Fire Islands missions. I haven't done Imperial Sanctum or Unwaking Waters with henchies, but I imagine I will be able to with the right character when I get the rest there. However, people also don't seem to learn that saying 'henchies suck' is not the same as 'the game cannot be played with henchies'. I got 100% Grandmaster Cartographer and completed Factions using henchies most of the way.

Henchies suck.

They don't suck as bad as Tyrian henchies, but they still suck. It doesn't mean the game isn't impossible, it just means some of us are just that damn good at playing with crappy henchies and can deal with the rezzes associated with them. I don't know if people will ever learn not to assume bad henchies means impossible gameplay..

Poison Ivy · Jun 01, 2006, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Henchies are tools, use them wisely

In other words, don't grab the melee freaks, like Lukas and that bird.

They will just aggro more enemies.

For me, a full party of casters (Don't take Su, the Vile Henchmen, she uses Vile touch...I think, never used her :P), and grab a Flatbow, lure, kill, lure, kill.

Evilsod · Jun 01, 2006, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

They don't suck as bad as Tyrian henchies, but they still suck. It doesn't mean the game isn't impossible, it just means some of us are just that damn good at playing with crappy henchies and can deal with the rezzes associated with them. I don't know if people will ever learn not to assume bad henchies means impossible gameplay..

Funny, during the FPE the Canthan henchman we're utterly retarded. They would clear out 1 group perfectly, then get wasted by the next group of Naga. Or of course just sucked beyond belief vs 3 Oni.

After using Tyrian Henchman practically everywhere, they are damn good. They have there utterly retarded moments too, but they all involve AoEs... They can occasionally pull off miracles too. I was rushing RoF once because i was getting sick of the Elite i wanted not appearing in a nice easy place and accidently lured 4 Mesmers, 2 Elementalists, 2 Armours and 1 Bow (the casters at the same time, the attackers near the end) and they actually won the fight with no deaths. How many Pugs can you say that happened with? Probably none because theres always 1 funny guy who isn't completely infused (i'll admit switching headgear is a common mistake though).

Aron, the problem is, EVERYTHING is 'coming soon'. I'm still waiting for my armour upgrade.

S!carius · Jun 01, 2006, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Sry if this has been posted already. I didn't feel like reading through page after page of comments.

This thing that pisses me off the most about hench is the fact that they love aoe. That is, they love to stand in it. They made the enemies run out of aoe, why can't they make the hench do the same?

I don't think that they are too bad other than the aoe problem and the ressing problem. IMHO, they are often better than the trash you see in pugs.

Zehnchu · Jun 01, 2006, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Yeah some where over the past year of playing prophecies I’ve totally forgotten how to use henchmen, same with everyone else.

Well when the henchmen break a called target it’s a bug, if I didn’t say anything about this how would anyone know. Same goes when other odd things happen more then once. If nothing is ever said then nothing would ever get fixed. When I am half health and trying to get away and they don’t heal me what so ever, when Duh’ika runs to the other side of the mob agros everything because of it “sucks” comes to mind…

CyberNigma · Jun 01, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Funny, during the FPE the Canthan henchman we're utterly retarded. They would clear out 1 group perfectly, then get wasted by the next group of Naga. Or of course just sucked beyond belief vs 3 Oni.

After using Tyrian Henchman practically everywhere, they are damn good. They have there utterly retarded moments too, but they all involve AoEs... They can occasionally pull off miracles too. I was rushing RoF once because i was getting sick of the Elite i wanted not appearing in a nice easy place and accidently lured 4 Mesmers, 2 Elementalists, 2 Armours and 1 Bow (the casters at the same time, the attackers near the end) and they actually won the fight with no deaths. How many Pugs can you say that happened with? Probably none because theres always 1 funny guy who isn't completely infused (i'll admit switching headgear is a common mistake though).

Aron, the problem is, EVERYTHING is 'coming soon'. I'm still waiting for my armour upgrade.

I should've been clearer. You're right as well. I think the Tyrian henchies suck more comment is as a group because there is less choice (such as a good interrupter). Individually they are probably on the same level. During the FPE they did seem much worse. The mobs in most places seemed stronger (Ferndale seems about the same) and the henchies would stop more often to recalculate their path, causing them to get left behind. I think the more choice makes them overall better in Cantha than Tyria.

eudas · Jun 01, 2006, 04:55 PM // 16:55

i think people who used henchmen in diablo2 will know what i'm talking about here:

when you learn to stop thinking of *them* as *your* henchmen, and begin thinking more along the lines that *you* are *their* henchmen, then you will begin achieving more success with the NPCs.

learn how each henchman AI works, and learn to babysit them. they'll stay alive longer, and you'll be more effective.

that being said, i'll throw in my $0.02 on the "tyrian henchies vs canthan henchies" discussion:

i have played quite a bit with henchmen throughout chapter1, and some henchmen are more valuable in some sections than others are. dunham, for example, is useless until you get up to the higher level areas (crystal desert through end of game); once he gets some decent degen spells, he actually can be quite valuable to have along, because he adds another form of pressure on the enemy team.

alesia is easily the most moronic ch1 AI, followed closely by thom, but mhenlo is quite an upgrade. but, individual AI's aside, the general henchman AI is not good or bad; it's just OK. The most important parts of working with it are learning the individual henchman's skill bars and capabilities, and learning how to trigger them to do what you want. Mhenlo and Lina standing in the fire? It's because the henchies like to stand in a ring around the PC's; so, move yourself away from the fire and they will move also.

Mostly I see people getting frustrated with the AI saying "henchies suck!" but really it's just that the player hasn't taken the time to learn how to control the hench AI. I get very good, very reliable results with henchmen; following the good old 80/20 rule, the henchmen get a pretty solid 80% score on capabilities if led by a competent PC. If you want to go above 80%, then, yes, you need PC's, because PC's can change skill bars, bring better selections, tweak attributes, and apply more critical thinking to changing situations. But the AI does pretty well in most situations. PC's can drag you out of some fscked up situations and save the day, but if you avoid getting into fscked up situations in the first place, the point is moot, isn't it? Keep the situations within the range of things that the hench AI can deal with and you'll have fewer problems.

So, finally getting 'round to the point: In my experience, the Canthan AI for healers is *really* fscking bad. Terribly bad. "Worse than Alesia" bad. To make matters worse, they took out Mhenlo as an option, because he's a storyline character now. The Avicara warrior, though, rocks hard. The interruptors are pretty good. Lo Sha isn't bad. I tend to avoid Necromancer minions, because I'm afraid they'll die too much using sacrifice skills, but I did use Eve alot in the Ring of Fire missions because she has some good direct damage skills, and can BR the other casters. [1] The Ele henchmen aren't too bad, either, though they tend to get targeted by enemy assassins and axe warriors alot, so if you don't protect them well they will get ganked alot.

All in all, some of the new AI's are pretty good, but they absolutely need to fix the canthan healer hench AI's and skill bars. They're god-awful.

Really, though, IMHO, Anet needs to form up a special team of developers whose sole responsibility is to go around improving AI's for mobs.
1) Fix the AI's for henchmen, and *at least* make them as smart as the enemy AI's;
2) Fix *all* AI's to look at their skill bars/attributes in an automated fashion and use them more intelligently. Too often, mobs get 3-5 skills, and just rotate through the same list over and over.
3) Fix AI's to kite intelligently.
4) Fix AI's to follow targets, and retreat more intelligently.
5) Give selected mob AI's "natural enemies". It's really RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing annoying to watch overlapping patrols of grawl and , say, devourers, walk up to each other, say "afternoon, fred", and walk off. Now, I understand, some species may not be aggressive on each other, but give me a fscking break. This is why the avicara in Mineral Springs are one of my favorite enemies: they attack other mobs. They say, "this is our fscking territory, bitch, get the fsck out" *and they will kill other mobs for intruding*! That is just really fscking awesome! It lends them personality, it lends to believability that there is stuff going around when you're not there to watch it. Please understand: I'm not just trying to get it easy, so they kill each other all the time. That wouldn't be any fun. But make it a little more believable.

And so on, and so forth.

Anyhoo, this has gotten long enough, so I'll end here. There are great strides they could make to improve the game simply by focusing on AI, but that doesn't make for high sales numbers, so it'll probably never happen. They seem to be following the stereotypical PVP formula: "Hey, just play with other players, they're smarter, and takes less coding!", not realizing the great predominance of the Greater Internet Fsckwad Theory (http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2004/20040319h.jpg) that permeates the playerbase.

[1] to those of you who think that BR'ing warriors is dumb, remember that warriors, and especially the ch1 warriors like thom and stefan, tend to use a lot of mana based skills like Power Attack. Thus, more mana = more PA's = more damage.

eudas

BrutusV · Jun 01, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

I always bring Eve whenever she's available, blood ritual works wonders on those Blessed Light spamming monks.

And the spirit henchies no longer use union after an update which "improved healing skills of spirit henchman".

Also I like to bring Devona if she's available for the extra knock down interrupts.