Curse

TheMosesPHD · Jun 02, 2006, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Actually, most of the game balance is derived from skill usage and class combinations. Also, dictacting game balance in a realm where there are no limits to the resources through the reasoning of economy is rather amusing.

All you are causing is less use of the all chat by everyone except those who are spamming. You have to realize that this is a self defeating cycle, where you are re-creating one of the biggest trade problems again in another channel.

Yes, pink sucks, so work on getting the color changed instead of trying to justify invading the other channels.

You have mroe irony than that because individuals such as yourself are causing people to mute all chat as well. Trying to justify it by telling people to remove themselves from the games automatic sorting that places them in the highest district that isnt full rahter lame. You didnt bring this up specifically, but its been mixed in the pile of arguments already.

Yes, they could implement something to assist people who desire to trade. In other games where there is more of a balace between resources into and out of the game world, there exist several instances of a well developed system in place to help facilitate this aspect. What truly stands for questioning is, was that ever a primary focus of the game? The introduction of greens and their relative resale prices to npc venders is really the only arument for this veiwpoint. The rest of the game dictates otherwise.

This sort of situation can easily be viewed as harrassment by either side, but only one side is basing this complication within ANET.

Sorry sir, but you obviously didn't read every post. My comments about the chat being pink were quite early on in the discussion. I used much more than chat color to support my reasoning.

"Actually, most of the game balance is derived from skill usage and class combinations."

And who is it that sells and buys the items for the values that have been determined by the game balance? First off I can't buy mods from traders. I can't get the exact drops I need from killing monsters over and over again. And I cannot sell a mod, or anything for that matter, to the NPCs for their actual value. All of this must be done by player to player transaction. The game is driven by player to player transactions.

"Yes, they could implement something to assist people who desire to trade. In other games where there is more of a balace between resources into and out of the game world, there exist several instances of a well developed system in place to help facilitate this aspect. What truly stands for questioning is, was that ever a primary focus of the game? The introduction of greens and their relative resale prices to npc venders is really the only arument for this veiwpoint. The rest of the game dictates otherwise."

they. They. THEY! You're right! They, the game designers, have the potential power to change the system in order to address the problems. But we cannot change the game's mechanics and the obvious flaws within it. The only thing we can do is find a way around the flaw to keep the economy rolling.

Stabber · Jun 02, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMosesPHD

Players selling to players drives the economy.

So what? Last I checked, Guild Wars was a video game, not an economy simulation. Fakte, the game is designed so people who want to opt out of the economy can still be as competitive as the next guy.

I am not interested in your wares. To quote the great philosopher TheMosesPHD, "Shut the hell up."

guppy · Jun 03, 2006, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Stabber, that was just a really poor flame.

Economy in a game like this still is important and has been said so previously in interviews. Sorry to say this, but you should really take your own advice at the end of your post.

Big Tony · Jun 03, 2006, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

The filter for WTB and WTS just isn't working....

Right now in Euro Drok District 1. Local chat is being spammed WORSE than trade chat itself with a few morons who simply cannot use the fricken trade channel.

We might as well leave local to it's doomed stance and make a new channel called "Talk" at this rate >_<

/sigh

Lets talk about the real issue here. We all agree that trading in game is not as easy as it could be, yes? I'm tired of your "shut the hell up" argument because it is childish.

If Anet agreed that trade spam should be seen by everyone, do you think they would have created a trade channel? Do you think they would have implemented a way for WTS and WTB messages to go to the PROPER chat screen?

Yes, yes, I know. I'm ignoring the root of the problem. The flawed trade system. But the original point here is why bypass the trade channel? Why? The mall argument used earlier is ridiculous because people go to malls to be enticed to buy things, to see that shiny thing in the window and "window shop". Perhaps if there was a "mall" (or trade island, which the trade spammers in this thread dont seem to want to happen) for people to browse for items/mods/weapons, this would solve part of the problem.

In game economy has NOTHING to do with politeness and common courtesy. The trade channel is there for a reason. It was created with a purpose.

SO...there's a few solutions:
1. Force all spammers to use trade chat. Yeah, right, that will happen.

2. The community makes an effort to not buy from those that spam in local chat. Still wont work unless the support for such a ban was unanimous by all players.

3. Let the spammers do whatever they like. Keep it the way it is. Those with a problem can bend to the will of the spammers and avoid LA, Droks, etc completly.

or
4. Christ, Anet, stop us from arguing. Make an auction house already!

guppy · Jun 03, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

There we go

, Thank you Big Tony for that!

TheMosesPHD · Jun 03, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

The ingame economy is an optional feature which has been created by those who participate in it. I don't participate in it. It does not need to exist in order for me to enjoy Guild Wars.

The last time I tested, this was not true. If it is true now, then I will be thankful. However, the ignore list is nowhere near large enough to filter out the hundreds of spammers whom I would choose to filter out. Therefore, expanding it to infinite is the next logical solution. ANet has the server space to do so; they log every chat and transaction and action ingame already. Their servers can handle infinite ignore lists.

The ingame economy is purely optional. I can overlook any factor of the ingame economy just as easily as I can overlook the ingame economy itself -- I do not participate in it because I choose not to (I participate in the ingame economy only insomuch as I use the NPC traders, that is to say). Since I choose not to participate in the ingame economy, I do not believe that I should be subjected to the spam that it creates. If I had my way, I would be able to /ignore every spammer in the game, even if I had to do so one at a time.

If ANet would give me the ability to /ignore every local chat WTS spammer, then logically others would be free to choose not to /ignore them. This seems to be the perfect solution. Those who choose to participate in the ingame economy could do so, those who choose to /ignore it could do so, and everyone wins.

I fail to see how this is not the perfect solution.

Pathetic. You're saying because a part of the game that you personally don't participate in, that it doesn't matter at all. You're not the only person in the game. I don't know where you got that impression. This game has PvE and PvP and within both of those are many many different ways to play it. The game is made to accomodate a wide perspective of options. Disvaluing one option because it doesn't suit your personal agenda is more selfish than anything you've accused me of doing.

On top of that I don't know why you're even accussing me in the first place. I rarely do any sort of selling in game at all. But just because I don't personally participate in that area of the game, I can see the problems with it, and the reasons why your simplistic approach at solving the problem can do nothing but cripple the economy which many people, obviously not you, find an exciting feature of the game.

Why is infinite ignore not the perfect solution? Other than the completely valid fact that giving every player the ability to use an infinite ammount of server space would put GW out of business in an instant, I've gone over a lot. The overall game is driven by player to player economy regardless of whether or not it drives your gaming experience. What happens if you ever do need to buy something? You've ignored the planet. And also you're not just ignoring them when they're selling, you're ignoring people always. You cutting down your supply of people to join your groups. It's already annoying to find people willing to do many non-primary quests. That has nothing to do with spam being in the way. Why would you make it even more difficult?

Vahn Roi · Jun 03, 2006, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Even if they made the auction house, there is nothing to force these people to use it. They need something else a long with it to enforce the use of said house.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHD

You're not the only person in the game.

Really, how do you not see the irony in you saying such a thing?

Tainek · Jun 03, 2006, 12:13 AM // 00:13

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/auction/

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...splay.php?f=38

i see no reason to spam in the all chat, if trade takes 2 hours, and all chat takes half an hour, then this method takes 5 mins (post, check in a few days, freind buyer and wait for them to come online, simple)

Big Tony · Jun 03, 2006, 12:15 AM // 00:15

/cheers for Tainek

whitedragon · Jun 03, 2006, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vahn Roi

Even if they made the auction house, there is nothing to force these people to use it. They need something else a long with it to enforce the use of said house.

agreed

they will not stop, they will use the auction house the trade & local chat to sell there stuff, it will just give a new (option) to use.

Evilsod · Jun 03, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Tbh the problem is quite often to do with them selling things that nobody actually wants. I sold a couple of mods today in the space of 30 minutes using the trade channel and nothing more. 10 minutes trying then inbetween chest runs for the next 20. You can still find people trying to sell the same crap that nobody actually wants 2 hours later. There IS the outside chance someone may pay a few k for the item your selling, but is it worth the wait?
You get people spamming WTSs in ToA too much, most of which people don't even want, hence the reason why they think spamming it might get it noticed... That or the item they're selling is obviously overpriced. I could've sold all 3 of my mods in the first 5 minutes if i'd took the first offer, but i was been a bit greedy... so it took me another 25 minutes and i still have 1 to sell all because i was after what? Maybe 5-10k more overall.

TheMosesPHD · Jun 03, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Tony

/sigh

Lets talk about the real issue here. We all agree that trading in game is not as easy as it could be, yes? I'm tired of your "shut the hell up" argument because it is childish.

If Anet agreed that trade spam should be seen by everyone, do you think they would have created a trade channel? Do you think they would have implemented a way for WTS and WTB messages to go to the PROPER chat screen?

Yes, yes, I know. I'm ignoring the root of the problem. The flawed trade system. But the original point here is why bypass the trade channel? Why? The mall argument used earlier is ridiculous because people go to malls to be enticed to buy things, to see that shiny thing in the window and "window shop". Perhaps if there was a "mall" (or trade island, which the trade spammers in this thread dont seem to want to happen) for people to browse for items/mods/weapons, this would solve part of the problem.

In game economy has NOTHING to do with politeness and common courtesy. The trade channel is there for a reason. It was created with a purpose.

SO...there's a few solutions:
1. Force all spammers to use trade chat. Yeah, right, that will happen.

2. The community makes an effort to not buy from those that spam in local chat. Still wont work unless the support for such a ban was unanimous by all players.

3. Let the spammers do whatever they like. Keep it the way it is. Those with a problem can bend to the will of the spammers and avoid LA, Droks, etc completly.

or
4. Christ, Anet, stop us from arguing. Make an auction house already!

I say shut the hell up when someone seems to have completely ignored over half of what I've said before. Or blindly accuses me without proper support.

Ok then. No mall? What about Television? People don't watch television (other than the shop at home shows) to entice their wallets. They watch it to drown themselves in entertainment or get informed by the news. If the mall analogy doesn't suit you, than I think the TV one would work better. Forcing people into a trade channel or a trade district is like putting us all on the shop at home network. If you're not aware of it, barely anyone ever watches the shop at home networks on TV. Putting everything on the shop at home network will cut transactions drasticly.

The bottom of your post said it clearly. None of the player driven solutions are gonna cut the cake. You will never be able to overcome the pressure to sell your items quickly with the peer pressure of politeness. Even more so ingame because you don't see the real people behind the chat. You just see their words so a persons tendency to be polite online is greatly reduced.

Other than A.Net presenting us with a solution, there isn't much we can do. So stop complaining about it.

Stockholm · Jun 03, 2006, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Even if I'm looking for a specific item, I will not buy from someone selling in local chat, but I will let them know they missed out on a sale because they did.

Vahn Roi · Jun 03, 2006, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tainek

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/auction/

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...splay.php?f=38

i see no reason to spam in the all chat, if trade takes 2 hours, and all chat takes half an hour, then this method takes 5 mins (post, check in a few days, freind buyer and wait for them to come online, simple)

Logically that is the way to go, I know I buy and sell everything worth buying/selling in the auctions section. The problem is people don't want to wait a few days to sell what they have, which is unfortunate considering how many people have lost thousands of gold in a sale becuase they wanted to sell their product quickly rather than getting it's full worth and waiting a little longer.

On a side note, not everyone uses Guru, I know I played for over 9 months before I joined.

Big Tony · Jun 03, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMosesPHD

I say shut the hell up when someone seems to have completely ignored over half of what I've said before. Or blindly accuses me without proper support.

Ok then. No mall? What about Television? People don't watch television (other than the shop at home shows) to entice their wallets. They watch it to drown themselves in entertainment or get informed by the news. If the mall analogy doesn't suit you, than I think the TV one would work better. Forcing people into a trade channel or a trade district is like putting us all on the shop at home network. If you're not aware of it, barely anyone ever watches the shop at home networks on TV. Putting everything on the shop at home network will cut transactions drasticly.

The bottom of your post said it clearly. None of the player driven solutions are gonna cut the cake. You will never be able to overcome the pressure to sell your items quickly with the peer pressure of politeness. Even more so ingame because you don't see the real people behind the chat. You just see their words so a persons tendency to be polite online is greatly reduced.

Other than A.Net presenting us with a solution, there isn't much we can do. So stop complaining about it.

The television analogy is also flawed. Cause I will ALWAYS change the channel as soon as the home shopping network comes on. Hell, I dont stay on the same channel once any commercial comes on.

Forcing traders to one spot IS EXACTLY what the home shopping channel is! Do want some old lady selling crappy turquoise jewelery to interupt the show you're watching? I sure hope not. So they shipped the old lady and her crappy necklace to one place WHERE PEOPLE INTENTIONALY GO to buy said crappy thing. They EXPECT to be advertised to when they tune to the home shopping channel. They tune in cause they want to buy something. (ie the trade channel!)

The WHOLE POINT of this thread is that spamming trade stuff in the local channel is rude and annoying. It just is.

TheMosesPHD · Jun 03, 2006, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tainek

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/auction/

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...splay.php?f=38

i see no reason to spam in the all chat, if trade takes 2 hours, and all chat takes half an hour, then this method takes 5 mins (post, check in a few days, freind buyer and wait for them to come online, simple)

The reason is that those auctions don't work for everything. Crafting material can be sold much faster ingame. Random collectable drops can be sold much faster ingame. Amulets of the Mist go quite fast. The reason you want to sell as fast as possible is because everything that you haven't sold yet, is filling up space in your inventory. Inventory space is very important in the game, especially people who like having various armors/weapons available to them in order to suit many different situations.

GWG Auctions is a great place to sell a lot of high-end or high-demand items. But many items aren't commonly sought after. When I wanted to test a PvE build with Iron mist, I had to go around searching for a a shocking hammer haft. That's a shocking hammer haft. Those aren't quite high in demand. I had to wait 5 days to get a trash haft just to test something out, because I couldn't find anyone selling one. We need a way to solicit these lesser demand items. Not even spamming chat is a good way to sell such items.

vinegrower · Jun 03, 2006, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMosesPHD

Other than A.Net presenting us with a solution, there isn't much we can do. So stop complaining about it.

but that complaining, both about the Local spam, and the bad trade system, shows ArenaNet that something needs to be changed. There is nothing wrong with a healthy debate, however, telling people that dont agree with you to shut up and stop complaining isn't helping at all. The more people that chime in to complain about either the spam or trade system, the more important it becomes to ArenaNet.

Phades · Jun 03, 2006, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMosesPHD

Sorry sir, but you obviously didn't read every post.

Yep, i stopped with most of the obvious flaming like the path you are going down now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMosesPHD

My comments about the chat being pink were quite early on in the discussion. I used much more than chat color to support my reasoning.

You used the color breaks in order to promote advertising. You are avoiding my point though entirely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMosesPHD

And who is it that sells and buys the items for the values that have been determined by the game balance? First off I can't buy mods from traders. I can't get the exact drops I need from killing monsters over and over again. And I cannot sell a mod, or anything for that matter, to the NPCs for their actual value. All of this must be done by player to player transaction. The game is driven by player to player transactions.

Actual value is something determined by the individual. To be quite precice, the majority of the items are free of cost, depending on the prefered playstyle. The only precieved economy is driven by he who farms the most.

There are no balances on this. This is why arguing that the economy has some kind of balance within the game design is a falacy. You are just trying to justify passing off the cost of non-essential equipment onto someone else who has less play time under their belt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMosesPHD

they. They. THEY! You're right! They, the game designers, have the potential power to change the system in order to address the problems. But we cannot change the game's mechanics and the obvious flaws within it. The only thing we can do is find a way around the flaw to keep the economy rolling.

What economy? When your items begin to crumble and break over time, you can come back and talk about things like resource management within established economies.

The flaw here is trying to force people to play by your rules. The premis of the chat channel and npcs were the only rules setup by ANET. You can not fault ANET or your fellow players for expecting others to follow those established guidelines.

TheMosesPHD · Jun 03, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Tony

The television analogy is also flawed. Cause I will ALWAYS change the channel as soon as the home shopping network comes on. Hell, I dont stay on the same channel once any commercial comes on.

Forcing traders to one spot IS EXACTLY what the home shopping channel is! Do want some old lady selling crappy turquoise jewelery to interupt the show you're watching? I sure hope not. So they shipped the old lady and her crappy necklace to one place WHERE PEOPLE INTENTIONALY GO to buy said crappy thing. They EXPECT to be advertised to when they tune to the home shopping channel. They tune in cause they want to buy something. (ie the trade channel!)

The WHOLE POINT of this thread is that spamming trade stuff in the local channel is rude and annoying. It just is.

Wow...that was MY point! Seriously I don't think you're reading what I say. No one is gonna buy anything on the home shopping network! No one ever even tunes in to the home shopping network. You're telling us all to move to the home shopping network! Read what I said! That's exactly my point. My reasoning isn't flawed, you're just not reading it.

inscribed · Jun 03, 2006, 12:30 AM // 00:30

I wasn't going to post anything else, but saw one more thing I wanted to respond to. Some of you are claiming that the addition of an auction house wouldn't help matters, that a form of enforcement would still be required. No one, not even professional farmers and the like (I am not one), enjoy sitting around and spamming. Any form of a system where a player can post his item and leave it is going to cut down on spams drastically. Sure, there will still be some, but certainly not at the level it is currently. Also, to curb any arguments about it taking longer to complete a sale with a trade house than with spamming, any delay in payment is a very, very small price to pay for having a means of selling an item without resorting to spam (I am not including the subforum on this site, as a much smaller selection of players view it, and the items for sale tend to be much more rare than an average item that gets sold in game, and so is not a feasible alternative for the average player).

To reiterate, no one likes spamming, any form of a trade house will help drastically.

PS. One more response. Comparing the selling of an ingame item to any form of real world business is a poor analogy. Real world businesses have a (theoretically) endless supply of goods to sell, and the business exists for the sole purpose of selling these items. The average player does not have an endless supply of goods to sell, and the player does not exist to simply sell items. A more appropriate analogy would be comparing an in game seller to a real world person who is interested in selling his car. The difference is, of course, that the real world car owner has means at his disposal to sell his car (newspaper classifieds, automobile websites, or even a good old "park it by a busy street with a sign in the window"). The point remains, however, that the car owner tries to get his ad seen by as many people as possible, while doing the least amount of work as possible.