Curse

WasAGuest · Jun 17, 2006, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Another thing to think about is that PuGs seem to rely on web posted cookie cutter builds. Anyone not running the the FoTM build is going to have a hard time finding a PuG. So it's henchie time.

Henchies also:

don't try to sell to you in a group
don't run off randomly to unlock a section of the map and aggro half the zone then leave cause they got what they were after
don't rapidly ping the radar to get the groups attention and then go the wrong way
don't play like a complete fool and then spam "I'm dead" "I'm dead" "I'm dead"
don't blame the monk for not healing a 600dmg ele boss hit
don't suffer the code 7s

So, even though henchies are dumb as rocks, I still prefer them to PuGs.

Now if henchies could be semi controlled via a command bar, we could have a winner.

Francis Demeules · Jun 17, 2006, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Forget something in your list: Dont ragequit

Naqser · Jun 17, 2006, 09:22 PM // 21:22

I scrimmaged with my guild, me with 4 henchies against 5 of them, I lost, was the first time I did a "gvg"

Anyway, after the battle they said that the henchies were allmost invincible in a fight, but after they died and respawned at the guild, they just stood there like they were looking for rocks, not comming to the fight just outside the gate, but when I died and respawned they followed me

But when I pve with them, i stood there with 10 hp for 15 seconds, and alesia was busy casting word of healing, or the elite healing spell on thom, which hadn't even lost 1% of his hp. then after casting that, she stood there waiting to cast it again on her "love"

Of course, in some cases the henchies ARE smarter than humans out there, that plays GW

Man With No Name · Jun 17, 2006, 09:33 PM // 21:33

I really don't see what's the problem with henchies. I managed to complete every mission on both sides (15 hench team @ Square + Waters) and even got a mastery on Shiro -- as a Warrior !!!

Pull small groups, target call -- you won't get Mastery or even Expert on the majority of missions (good PuG's are still indispensable) but they do a decent job all the same.

As far as GvG Hall henchies -- your just asking for trouble bringing those into a fight =p

Francis Demeules · Jun 17, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man With No Name

As far as GvG Hall henchies -- your just asking for trouble bringing those into a fight =p

Well, I saw a team with henchies in observation in a GvG battle.... the team with hench won the match.

Stovaa · Jun 17, 2006, 09:40 PM // 21:40

I know that PUGs are 40% n00b-filled-death, but players can outperform henchmen. If you get a leaver or someone who has nfc what they're doing, then you'll lose. But I try to keep faith in my fellow man, and stand by PUGs.

Plus I hate NPC monks, ever since the whole "try to res sig the NPC who died at the start of Gyala" incident. I watched as Eli ran into the hills, res'd the monk and then came back too late to save the turtles.

Wouldn't it be funny if Anet allowed the servers to create their own super-strong henchteam and it was IWAY :P

raven214 · Jun 17, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

I can understand Anet wanting to encourage human teams over hench, I mean GW is a "multiplayer" game after all...

but why must hench play at the level of a 3rd grader? I'm glad they're starting to understand the concept of resurrection, but why oh why do they sometimes get stuck in this never-ending run back and forth between me and a dead teammate -- they won't go all the way over to res the guy, even though we're standing within aggro distance of him, so I have to move closer to him.. even if I was trying to res another of the hench that got themselves killed.

Apparently I've had rather good luck with PUGs... asside from the occassional ragequiter or the completely clueless, I still prefer them to hench. Although Canthan hench do seem markedly better than their Tyrian counterparts -- especially evident now that finding real people in Tyria is so hit or miss (the new greens not included).

To me:
guildies > PUGs > almost anything = hench (depending on area of the game)

Mysterial · Jun 17, 2006, 11:10 PM // 23:10

My only problem with the henchmen at this point is the pathfinding (which is a global game problem) and that their builds are crippled - they have no runes and their skill/attribute selection mostly ranges between questionable and downright awful. That's possibly intentional, but if so I think it's a bad idea - if you don't want people to play with bots, don't add bots. If you do, do it right.

That's not to say the henchmen aren't stupid in other areas, but for the most part they're consistently stupid, so after a while you learn how to manage those things without them affecting the outcome too much.

Hidden in the Mist · Jun 17, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Stop making the Monk Henchies run into the front of battle!

It's pissing me RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing off!

Mr_T_bot · Jun 18, 2006, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rent

I GREATLY prefer henchmen over PUGs. PUGs are my last resort.

Not to mention real players are judgmental and picky. If you don't fit the current popular skill and team set, you don't get a team.

Sometimes I think Guild Wars devs who come up with these ideas don't play the game.

Spazzer · Jun 18, 2006, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Exploiting computer-controled monsters sure is dull, any way you look at it. With PUGs, I can meet new people and recruit good players. With henchmen, I can walk away from the computer or do whatever I want.

Neither one is a last resort. I'm talented enough to not need to rely on one or the other.

Dawgboy · Jun 18, 2006, 02:23 AM // 02:23

It would be nice if there were a few simple comands for henches. "Follow", "Guard", and "Attack" could let them either attack nothing, attack only when the party is being attacked, or attack anything they get close to.

There's a lot of areas where henching or going solo are you only options. Try forming a full group in the jungle when there's only 4 other people in the whole town.

I don't mind PUGs, but a lot of times they seem hell-bent on getting where they want to go and don't seem to mind if the party is spread out over half the map. I REALLY love when the warrior leader, who's not even on my radar any more, gets mad when my healer lets him die.

Just one real request-Orion needs to stop with the firestorm. He's not just useless to bring, he's dangerous. He hits firestorm, monsters fall back into the next mob, war. henchies follow them, party gets swarmed.

Mr_eX · Jun 18, 2006, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Once, I attempted "To Tannhakai Temple" 3 times on my Ranger. First time, wipe before we reach Mhenlo. Second time, Mhenlo runs off and dies, quest failed. Third time, henchies don't attack my target, and a small group of AM FAH wipes us out. After the third failure, I proceeded to ragequit.

The problems I've had with henchies FAR outweigh the problems I've had with PUGs. If you take the time to organized a balanced PUG that suits the mission at least classwise, you'll probably make it. Also, nothing beats human interaction, even if your only interaction is adding some obnoxious 14-year old to your ignore list.

Conelead · Jun 18, 2006, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

In my view playing Guild Wars solo with Henchmen is often not viable. Especially in difficult zones with multiple mobs with dozens of enemies all congregating in the same place. Ie: Southern Shiverpeaks.

A few reasons why henchmen are often not viable:

- Henchmen can never retreat until it's too late, resulting in their guaranteed deaths if they get themselves into a losing fight.

- Henchmen often cause multiple mobs to get aggroed that real players would never have aggroed, which just compounds the first problem.

- Monk henchmen will always solo aggro into a mob to res any other dead party member and ensure their guaranteed instant re-death.

- It is not possible to pull mobs while playing with henchmen because the henchmen will always aggro ahead of you 100% of the time.

- Henchmen are very weak overall. Their power is limited, their skills are limited, and their AI is very, very, very limited.

I can understand not making henchmen become overpowered, however as it stands henchmen are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy the heck on the other side of the spectrum from overpowered. Henchmen should be on par with regular players. Yet they are not, not by a longshot.

Recently I was in a video game store and I picked up a box of Chapter 1's "game of the year" edition or something like that. It said something like "Play with your friends or ours. You may band with other players or skillful AI henchmen". I was shocked when I read that on the box, because the henchmen in Guild Wars are nowhere near being "skillful".

The henchmen need attention and buffing from the devs. Not to the point of being overpowered, just to the point of not being absymally bad.

I strongly disagree with most of this and anyone who says henchmen are bad. In most instances I find them stronger than many PUGs in PVE. Most of their skillbars are fairly well focused (despite not having 8 skills). I cannot say this about many of the ppl I meet in pve. I have seen people running skills in 4-5 different attributes and I'm not talking about stuff like Rebirth with no Prot Prayers. I mean stuff that requires attribute points to be useful. Most people seem to have trouble with henchment aggro management. I did at first, but with a little bit of attention, and target calling, controlling henchmen aggro is not really that hard. I have henched everything in Tyria and Cantha on my monk, and almost everything between my ranger and my war (Fire Islands excluded, as I'm just too lazy to finish them. I know it can be done). In fact, the more difficult the mission, the more I prefer henchmen. The simple reason being that as long as you know what you are doing and are able to direct them, henchmen will hardly ever truly RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO you over, whereas, I find that often happens in a human PUG. I am sorry, but I cannot say much for the general intelligence level of human players online. People claim missions like Thunderhead Keep are genuinely difficult. Not really. Thunderhead is quite easy (well after they fixed the fact that henchmen aren't infused here).

It is true that henchmen do not run, but you CAN pull with them. It just requires you do to a little bit of work and REQUIRES you to have a long or a flatbow. You can't pull with a wand. The extra few meters makes a difference. A flat bow is best. It also requires you to pull the closest group, and not necessarily the group you want to pull most. Pulling with henchmen is a learned thing, but it can be done. A good place to learn is Gyala Hatchery. Do it the back way with 7 henchies and you are forced to pull. It'll take a while, but you will get masters if you do it corretly. I dunno if they fixed this in the last patch though. Haven't done Gyala since that patch. The not running thing only presents an issue if 2 things happen: 1) You overaggro, and 2) you start dying. Both rarely happen to me when I play with henchmen, so GG. In fact, I see both those thigns happen more with human players than with henchmen.

They have also, due to recent AI patches, severely reduced the monk res AI problem due to use of res sigs. Although, I find that henchmen do not realize they have their res sigs back after a morale boost. ANET you might want to look into this.

I strongly disagree with henchmen being weak. They are limited by below par skillbars, but possess many benefits that you cannot get by playing with real players. The coordination that you can accomplish with henchmen on a consistent level is much greater simply because henchmen always listen to you and always do what you want them to do. This is the main reason why henchmen are often BETTER than players. Simply because if one person decides "I don't feel like doing that, I feel like going over there and picking up my gold drop" can often mean the end of the group. Henchmen stay put, and do what you tell them, when you tell them to do it. It requires a bit of management, but in my opinion, that complete control and good coordiation is far more valuable in the more difficult areas of the guild wars world.

Let me use monk henchmen as an example.

Mhenlo is normally my healer of choice for pve areas in Tyria where he exists. For the following reasons:

1) He uses Word of Healing correctly
2) I only use him to heal party damge, and while his lack of Heal Party is disturbing, his other skills will suffice 99% of the time.
3) He requires much less control than Alesia
4) Lina almost always resses faster than him, so if combat res happens, Mhenlo is not normal out for very long.
5) He is a stronger primary healer than many monks I meet, simply because he uses his heals in a proper manner.
6) He doesn't overheal that much when it matters

In general, if I put the Mhenlo AI with a properly construced healer skillbar, I am sure Mhenlo would be one of the best monks in the game. His judgement about who to heal, when to heal them, and what heal to use is generally spot on. That is more than I can say of many human players. In all areas where he exists, I will take mhenlo over ANY PUG monk, and I will usually take Alesia over pug monks also. This is simply because I know how they will react. Security is a valuable thing when you are trying to get something accomplished. If you realize how your group is going to react to a certain situation, you can plan for it, and get through it. This requires you to actually *gasp* think during pve, but almost always you can be successful.

The only thing that henchmen cannot handle as well as human players is AOE damage. That is the one thing that murders henchmen. They ball like there is no tomorrow, and do not move out of AOE. Stacked spells like Churning Earth ruin henchies. That is the only problem I have with henchies.

Seriously, Henchie control is something that all PvErs should learn. I believe that once you realize how to effectively utilize your henchmen, you will realize that they are stronger than human players, simply because they react in a predictable manner. And that, is by far the most valuable trait you can have in a group, predictability.

Demesis · Jun 18, 2006, 06:46 AM // 06:46

If I took henchies into Aspenood, we would so pwn the opposing PUG.

Former Ruling · Jun 18, 2006, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Yea, finally someone realized that henchies aren't uber for a reason.

AI can ALWAYS be tweaked to be Faster, Stronger, and Smarter than any human, with no error percentage due to human fault.

This already happens lol. Enemy monsters can hit an interupt RIGHT as you press the button to cast it, so they can catch skills that humans would never. This is because they have no reaction time. Enemy casters often times have seemingly endless energy pools. Enemies over lvl20 reflect that in their attributes.

TideSwayer · Jun 18, 2006, 07:13 AM // 07:13

6/17 Chatlog excerpt:

I hope Gaile and the devs at ANet realize that people aren't clamoring for Level 45 henchmen. They are strong enough (henchmen builds notwithstanding). The main complaints players have with henchmen overall stem from their aggro-happy nature, and the inability of the party PLAYERS to prevent them from doing so. All the players really need to basically quiet down about henchmen, maybe for good, is some sort of mechanism to keep them from aggroing nearby mobs/monsters the player either doesn't want to aggro (such as a mob on the back side that crept onto the radar), isn't ready for (waiting for regen, etc.), or wants to wait and PULL THE MOB APART (which, with the current henchmen AI is next to impossible, and it's a big part of the GW game mechanic). Just give the players that, and we'll be happy enough. Let us have the ability to tell the NPC's in our party (pets, minions, henchmen) to STAND STILL AND NOT AGGRO while we recharge/pull/etc.

It's also incredibly frustrating when you want to flee a scene of inevitable disaster and your stupid henchmen can't be bothered to follow. They decide to stick around and fight a losing situation instead of fleeing with the player. It would be nice to be able to make the henchmen "give up the fight" as well. I end up having to revive more henchmen than I should because they aren't smart enough to get away from danger, and the player can't make them do it either. Let me have a 'summon here' button in addition to a 'don't aggro anything' command, and I'll be a happy camper, as will a lot of other players.

That's all. That's all we need. Overlapping mobs and drop-in mobs making what you thought was going to be a 5-monster fight into a 12-monster brawl are everywhere, and wipeout is inevitable if only one person in a one-person-plus-hench party can actually follow directions. Maybe someday ANet will understand how incredibly frustrating this makes parts of the game. This isn't a lack of player skill that is leading to wipeouts and frustration. I know what I need to pull apart and what I need to avoid and/or be cautious with. The stupid computer allies don't, and there's no way to teach them. I don't really want to hear the "not making henchmen better than players or else players won't use other players" argument. PUG's for some of the damn quests (lower Cantha fetch quests, and probably at this point many of the Tyrian quests) and obscure skillcaps (such as Feast of Corruption) are pretty hard to find. I'd take players in a second over henchmen if I could. But many of us are stuck having to deal with aggro-happy morons for the out of the way, unpopular stuff that needs to be done.

One other thing... I would also like the ability to choose multiple henchmen of the same type. Kind of lame that you can't, IMO.

arcady · Jun 18, 2006, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

In all honesty, it is possible to program AI so that it is the Uber Player, the one that is better than... you!

It is possible to make it heal faster than any player, res more accurately, fight more intelligently, and not have "human error" like mashing the wrong key or forgetting to swap weapons.

Guild Wars is a social game, and it encourages playing with others while making it entirely viable to play solo, if you wish.

Given trade spam, I would say GW discourages playing with others...

But I understand the intent.

AI characters do have their problems - the same tactic for every problem is never wise. But at least with AI characters I can do things that will reliably cause them to respond in certain ways. Just as I can aggro control AI opponants, I can call targets and get AI henchmen to obey, and essentially control their aggro as well. With a PUG, I have no ability to control a 'go-go-go' player - if a player plays like Prince Rurik, I can only chose to leave. If a player goes afk, I've lost them... if a player goes left when we all go right - they get to go left all they want. If a player hangs back in order to jump on grabbing on all the gold drops, all we can do is object. If a player pops an attitude, we just have to listen...

But, while you can 'cheat program' an AI to function better than my character, you can never make one that will outthink me. A human mind might make errors, but it is also capable of doing something it was not told to do.

Traveller · Jun 18, 2006, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

In all honesty, it is possible to program AI so that it is the Uber Player, the one that is better than... you!

It is possible to make it heal faster than any player, res more accurately, fight more intelligently, and not have "human error" like mashing the wrong key or forgetting to swap weapons.

But yes, as suggested in this thread, it's not in the best interests of the game to make it AI Wars. The AI is created to assist and to provide a viable companion, but not to supplant players who are real humans. (Pauses to consider: Are there "unreal" humans?

)

Guild Wars is a social game, and it encourages playing with others while making it entirely viable to play solo, if you wish. You have choices and those choices are pretty well balanced! The last thing we want to do is to make it the best choice of all to have a guild that consists solely of Alecia, Professor Gai, Cynn, and that Thom guy.

I feel totally different than you on this point. You have a beautiful dream of a world of GW where you can have a party of fun and kind individuals who strive to succeed in fulfilling a mutual goal. Unfortunately, in reality, when we venture around with PUGs, we have ADHD-suffering 13-year-olds, people who refuse to take any kind of advice, people who cuss and swear to one another and people who are just plain jerks and morons who ruin the fun for everyone. Not to mention if you happen to play a non-appreciated class like Assassins (and sometimes Mesmers), who won't find quality PUGs as fast as say, Monks do.

And now you tell us, Gaile, that you're intentionally making Henchmen AI stupider to encourage us to play with these wonderful human players more. I've lost a lot of my faith in you today, thinking in the past that you would make decisions that would benefit your community. This is an obvious example of the opposite.

And yes, I'm not expecting a henchmen party that will do everything while I can take a nap. What I _am_ expecting is a henchmen party that doesn't have tanking ritualists, healers who try to use Rebirth in the middle of a battle or warriors, who refuse to break aggro by all means necessary.

My two cents. I hope you guys reconsider.

Sab · Jun 18, 2006, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

In all honesty, it is possible to program AI so that it is the Uber Player, the one that is better than... you!

It is possible to make it heal faster than any player, res more accurately, fight more intelligently, and not have "human error" like mashing the wrong key or forgetting to swap weapons.

But yes, as suggested in this thread, it's not in the best interests of the game to make it AI Wars. The AI is created to assist and to provide a viable companion, but not to supplant players who are real humans. (Pauses to consider: Are there "unreal" humans?

)

Guild Wars is a social game, and it encourages playing with others while making it entirely viable to play solo, if you wish. You have choices and those choices are pretty well balanced! The last thing we want to do is to make it the best choice of all to have a guild that consists solely of Alecia, Professor Gai, Cynn, and that Thom guy.

Though I know where Gaile's coming from, I must disagree with several of her statements.

We're not asking for uber one-shot kill henchies or anything overpowered like that. We're asking for more adjustments like the recent ressing behaviour update. There are plenty more similar problems like henchies standing in lava, refusal to withdraw from combat, bad henchie monk positioning, etc. Fixes such as these would make playing with henchies much less tedious, without making the henchies "better than human players."

As for people refusing to play with others if henchies were buffed, I don't think that would be the case. Those who enjoy the company of others would continue to do as they wish, as henchies aren't much fun to chat with. And there are plenty of things AI simply cannot do as well as humans can, e.g. splitting, or tailoring a build to a specific area. I simply can't see the day when everybody would run all-hench groups, no matter what improvements the henchies receive.