Curse

Saerden · Jun 13, 2005, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

I'll agree with anyone on anything about runes being part of a build, right up until they say they are a requirement. Because lets face it, how many of us are in KOR or Fi? Members of either guild are excluded from this topic >:

So its ok for top chess players to have a full board, but if YOU play against ME, its ok if i could buy an upgrade for my king on ebay (My king has sup vigor, you have to kill me twice

)? Thats the point. Nothing in this game is challenging, unless your a guildless casual gamer like me. I wont mind UAS anyway. If a bot can do it, its not challenging. Unless you have a GF / BF / SO that does not like GW; a job, whatever ...

The real challenge (according to pve players like me and pvp players) is the pvp metagame. Sure i might win against someone using pre-builds. Sure i might loose to others. But what does it prove? PvP players dont play to "pwn". Its not fun killing helpless bugs. If i have less options then my opponent, i still may win. That only means i have more skills then him. It does not tell me how much skills i have exactly... since noone knows how much runes, flexibility etc affect the outcome.

To make it even more simple. Lets say the best team in GW SOMEHOW looses their accounts. Would they still be NR1 (or close) after a short while if they buy the game again? This is the ultimate test, dont argue about getting accounts back, it serves no purpose in this comparison.

If yes: there is either no worthy competition anyway. The skill gap to NR2 is so large, pvp is totally meaningless anyway. Or unlockables are meaningless. If they are meaningless, why have them as rewards? Are you that desperate to unlock something that has no use at all? how about cooking recipes?
If no: the game is not based on skills. It is just a waste of pvp players time.

Sekkira · Jun 13, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Again, someone managed to totally misinterpret my post and argue against me by comprehending out of it what they wanted to hear.

Quote:

It sure does require work, but it's not really tough at all, just time conusming. I'd rather spend time doing things I want to do, not HAVE to do.

Noone is stopping you from doing something else. Noone is forcing you to unlock all the skills and runes. Noone is forcing you to play a game which you don't like. Remember what I said, I bought this game for what it is and not what I wanted it to be. If it didn't meet your expectations, suck it up and get a new game.

Keesa · Jun 13, 2005, 06:28 PM // 18:28

We're getting heated here.

And this thread will get deleted the way the others have.

I've tried to sort through the compelling arguments and the non-compelling, and this is what it seems to boil down to:

Pro-UAU: Why not UAU (Unlock All Unlockables)?
Anti-UAU: Because you should earn everything you get.
Pro-UAU: Okay, what about once you beat the game once?
Anti-UAU: Because that's not the way the game was designed.
Pro-UAU: But maybe it's a design flaw that was only apparent after release, because betas have a controlled population. Now you have dissatisfied customers. Why not fix something that won't really affect PvE but will make PvP more enjoyable for the majority of the people who PvP?
Anti-UAU: Because that's not the way the game was designed.

That's the core to which this all boils down, seems to me. If someone who is Anti-UAU has a better answer than that last, please supply it. Sekkira, please don't respond, you're kinda confrontational.

Jackell · Jun 13, 2005, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaanix

People go through all the pve missions and STILL dont know how to play. This is because skilled play isn't currently rewarded in the game, time is. So people put in their time, and coast through the game. They dont care about getting better, because there is no need to. A friend of mine told me not 10 minutes ago on AIM that people in his group in hell's precipice didnt know what pulling was. This is pathetic. Bottom line is that PVE is a chore, and excluding thirsty river, it does NOT prepare you for pvp AT ALL. When I see you winning HOH or your guild in the top20 on the ladder jackell, perhaps your pvp 'concerns' might hold some weight, but dont sit there and tell me that pvp would be too easy if UAS was in, and imply that you'll walk through 90% of your pvp matches. You get a big *lol* to that one.

First of all, I said Unlock through PvP.

Secondly, there was a UAS in the Open Beta's, and I held the HoH quite a few times, and yes, I did walk through 90% of my matches because people didn't learn their skills. Been there, done that.

Yes, a one week learning curve that I'm proposing would be a chore. But one week? That's really not that bad, and I have seen the quality of pvp getting better since the UAS was removed.

Creston · Jun 13, 2005, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasp

So you're implying that Fianna WILL (without a doubt) loose to KOR, simply because they don't have as many superior runes?

Is it just me, or is this a bit silly?

Superior runes give -75 HP, and the more they have, the less HP they'll have, the faster they'll die.

I think he was more implying Superior Vigor and Absorption runes. It's simple math. Superior Vigor = +75 hp. Not sure how much Sup Absorp does, but let's say it's fifteen percent.

8 party members x +75 hp + 15% = 690 hitpoints that one guild has to wear down somehow over the other guild. I would say that that's a definite advantage (although unlikely to happen, ie, one guild having all Sup Runes and the other guild having none).

In the end, PvP is about killing your opponent. If one opponent has a numerical advantage over the other, all other things being equal, you still have to do more damage to that one person, as compared to the other.

Whether this is an advantage that can swing matches is debatable, but statistically, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how the player with sup runes is going to have an advantage over the one who doesn't.

Creston

edit : "You get satisfaction from beating up on shitty AI? Good, im happy for you, real gamers do not"

Bang that drum boy, bang it harder!

let's leave the 'Real Gamer' crap out of this, okay? Just because I think GW PvP is not really very interesting doesn't make you more of a gamer than me, or anyone else who prefers to play PvE over PvP. Note I said PREFERS. If I want to play vs other players, I would rather fire up HL2 DM or something to that extent. Imo, it takes more skill to hit someone in the teeth with a toiletbowl than it takes to hit 2, 4, 1, 4 with a certain set of skills

No offense, I just thought your post was uberly presumptious.

Tutompop · Jun 13, 2005, 06:34 PM // 18:34

I see no problem with UAS/UAR for strict pvp players since it's all about ratings on a website or a few random /w you rock! from people whose name I don't even know.

When I pvp and it's very infrequent I don't want to have had to farm all my items just to be competitive, I felt I had to do this just to compete in DAoC which was probably never the case since I always lost anyway unless I played my BoneDancer (inside joke)

In GW i've gone on winning streaks (in random arena fights) along with losses so bad I felt as though I had been beaten into the ground to the point I left a permanent mark upon the arena floor. However, 90% of the time I still have fun because that is how I feel about pvp; it is just for fun. For that matter that is why I pve; just for fun. If i'm playing a game and not having fun I quit that game. I know a large portion of you view it as a contest to see who is the best. If that's your thing then more power to you, I just don't care if i'm 1 or 1,001.

Give me a level playing field for pvp on the occasions I do it when I want to do it. I'd be happy if I could use my 4th spot to make an instant pvp class that had just as much potential to be as effective as the next guy. PvE for the sake of pvp seems silly to me.

The "best" guilds in DAoC often had every advantage they could farm (most time played) just to compete with the one or two other guilds from the other realm that did the same and then brag about who won on the forums. These guilds just steamrolled the rest of us without a second thought. That is not to say most of us would not have been run down like dogs anyway because the good guilds knew what they could do, how to do it and meshed well.

I think for the most part it would be the same here even if all skills were unlocked but only for the people who really worked hard at it. That most certainly would never be me since I quit games like DAoC because I was working at the game more often than having fun. (reality check for me) Don't get me wrong, i love to loot items but I only like to farm for them in groups in wild areas when i want to, not because I MUST find that superior rune of vigor.

You keep your pvp out of my pve and i'll keep my choclate out of your peanut but.... or something like that.

Nad · Jun 13, 2005, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Thats your best arguement? Go get another game? They are forcing me to unlock everything because I WANT to PvP with EVERY class and I CAN'T with the skills that I have.

Give me one example of how it would affect you if I had every skill in the game.

Anything else you say will be ignored from now on, your argument is weak.

Evan The Cursed · Jun 13, 2005, 06:52 PM // 18:52

I'm glad that my coming out as a 100% PvE'er for UAS has inspired a few others to follow suit =)

As a matter of fact, I think we are a silent majority on this issue (at least in terms of those who PvE and like to do so) - and I think if we just spoke up more, Anet would get the message.

Sekkira · Jun 13, 2005, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Sekkira, please don't respond, you're kinda confrontational.

XD That made my day. I am only confrontational when posts arguing against my what I have taken a stance on borderline or are personal attacks. I have not said GW should be this or GW should stay as it is because it is a perfect game. It is not, there are some problems with it but I wont adress them here as it would be off topic.

But ultimately, the example argument you put there is the truth. The game is how it is now as a result of the developers design of it. It may not exactly be how they intended it to be, but I would be very surprised if their intentions included UAU. Otherwise they wouldn't be there in the first place, seriously. Think about what you guys want when you say you want to have UAU.

If all runes were unlocked from day one, there wouldn't really be much point to runes at all, you can level the playing field completely by removing them entirely. Same with skills, except without removing them, you may as well remove quests too. Experiance doesn't really matter that much either. Once you hit ascension, you automatically hit level 20.

Why spend all that time developing a storyline, plotting it all out, mapping out an entire continent then? Why not just create a pvp game instead? Maybe because it's called a CORPG for a reason? The game isn't exactly centered around PvP, otherwise it would be more along the lines of RTS or a beatemup.

I am not for UAU, but I am not for the system as it currently is. Eventually it does become a grind, which is what ArenaNet originally intended not to happen. The problem is, how do they implement something that requires skill and effort to unlock something, without being a grind? If you can think of an implimentation that would make everyone happy, there's the suggestions forum down there, get to work!

Loviatar · Jun 13, 2005, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creston

I
8 party members x +75 hp + 15% = 690 hitpoints that one guild has to wear down somehow over the other guild. I would say that that's a definite advantage (although unlikely to happen, ie, one guild having all Sup Runes and the other guild having none).

.

and that is one of the major flaws of the UA? people when they make the 3+ advantage as a given

considering that points above 12 dont give the full boost that you get from 1-12 the total 3+ advantage is smaller than the difference between 9 and 12

also consider the other side may have a major instead of a superior which only gives them a partial +1 advantage not even a full +1 advantage

if someone actually knows the game stats to compare a team that is equal except +3 superior runes compared to +2 major runes it would be interesting

Keesa · Jun 13, 2005, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

XD That made my day.

Glad you saw the humor because I wasn't going for you in particular, I just wanted to see if we could come up with something besides "it's not supposed to be an easy thing" or "if the devs wanted it that way, they would have made it that way." And you were being... energetic in those two responses.

I personally don't think UAU is the complete answer, necessarily, but I do think that if you've completed the game once in order to unlock stuff for PvP, more options should be available to you in that limited PvP setting. That's the sticking point for most people who are in favor of UAU; if it could be implemented without affecting PvE, why not let it be?

Zaklex · Jun 13, 2005, 08:44 PM // 20:44

I realized today(after starting my fifth[5th] RP character), that I could care less if they had a UAS, or UAR, or UAU(upgrades). Would it hurt PvE, only for those that let it. Why? because I personally do not like creating a PvP only character, don't ask for reasons, it's personal taste. Now, with that out of the way, the PvP'ers don't really want UAS, what they really want(and I'm taking about the competitive ones, like in the Fianna) is an alternate path to obtaining those skills/Runes/modifiers, et al. Something other than having to redo PvE content for hours on end only to get one Rune or modifier.

Numerous proposals have been put forth already and A.net is working on making changes that will reduce the "grind"{isn't the whole idea of playing this game to get away from RL?, hence grind in quotation marks](another personal opinion, and before you comment, I have a family, job, etc. - and I want to escape from it).

Chev of Hardass · Jun 13, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

and that is one of the major flaws of the UA? people when they make the 3+ advantage as a given

considering that points above 12 dont give the full boost that you get from 1-12 the total 3+ advantage is smaller than the difference between 9 and 12

also consider the other side may have a major instead of a superior which only gives them a partial +1 advantage not even a full +1 advantage

if someone actually knows the game stats to compare a team that is equal except +3 superior runes compared to +2 major runes it would be interesting

Do not forget that some builds do not use runes to get above 12, but use runes to get multiple attribute points to the useable level.

For example:
Sword Warrior has a req 9 sword
req 9 tactics shield
Slams their Strength to 13 with a Superior rune
still has enough points to get healing skills to useable level

Loviatar · Jun 13, 2005, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chev of Hardass

Do not forget that some builds do not use runes to get above 12, but use runes to get multiple attribute points to the useable level.

For example:
Sword Warrior has a req 9 sword
req 9 tactics shield
Slams their Strength to 13 with a Superior rune
still has enough points to get healing skills to useable level

and the other person does the same with a major rune to 12

i was wondering how much difference between the full boost to 12 and the slightly less than full boost above 13

Jackell · Jun 13, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaklex

Now, with that out of the way, the PvP'ers don't really want UAS, what they really want is an alternate path to obtaining those skills/Runes/modifiers, et al. Something other than having to redo PvE content for hours on end only to get one Rune or modifier.

Exactly. I get mistaken a lot for a PvE'er on these threads because I don't support a UAS, but an unlock through pvp, but the reason I play the game is to pvp, I've always been big on pvp. I support mainly a short peroid of unlock through pvp, or if that's not possible, an unlock all after beating the game, and many of the hardcore pvpers in these threads have beaten the pve section. A pvper shouldn't have to play for 500+ hours to get everything for an even playing field, but I feel just maybe a week long learning curve.

ManadartheHealer · Jun 13, 2005, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackell

I get mistaken a lot for a PvE'er on these threads because I don't support a UAS, but an unlock through pvp, but the reason I play the game is to pvp, I've always been big on pvp..

If they allowed you to unlock things (moderately, not all at once or anything like UAS) through PvP, that would be the best solution. Why? Everyone gets what they want. PvPers don't have to play through PvE, it doesn't cheapen the game by making it so all things are handed to you on a silver platter (you have to work for it), and PvEers are totally unaffected (I think

). If they instituted that, it would work.

Apparently, UAU wouldn't work either way, because some people would get screwed. Unlocking through PvP (similar to unlocking through PvE, BUT by playing PvP) would be a solution that all (or at least the reasonable people) could agree on.

Phaedrus · Jun 13, 2005, 09:42 PM // 21:42

I guess I've always assumed the reason was that ANet wanted a game that appealed to both PvP players and PvE players. PvE players need something to work toward, otherwise it's just repetetive and there's no reward. I'm not interested in reading replies from people who already feel it's this way. If you don't like fighting mobs a lot, don't do it.

On the other hand, there are huge rewards for being great at PvP and holding the Hall of Heroes. They made the game compelling enough to be interesting for PvP players without completely alienating the PvE players.

There are people who enjoy both. I'm one of them.

Unlock all skills simply means you have to fight more variations of a theme. People will observe builds and instantly be able to duplicate them with no understanding or experimentation on their part. I'm proud of my healing and protection builds, especially the unconventional ones. Do I post them? No. It's not that I don't like sharing information, it's that I don't like to empower those who don't understand what they're doing.

I've been against this new SoC system for this reason. It used to be hard to cap elite skills. Many PvP builds revolve around an elite. So it was at least something of a bottleneck to keep annoying l33t h4xx0r kiddies from copying a build and being even somewhat successful without needing the talent or knowledge that came with DISCOVERING that build. I never understood people who complained about how hard the old SoC system was. I've missed a cap -once- and that was because my group was punishing me for trying to get them to employ strategy. A lot of the best PvP players out there were up and ready within weeks, and I didn't hear them bitching about having to unlock their skills. Now it's far easier to shop for skills...which is what unskilled players want (so fine, I'll conceed the point) but it floods the PvP market with players who don't really understand how to create a good build.

So if you want a con for unlock all everything, here it is: ANet will alienate players who like to have to work for that they have. Why would I, as someone who likes to use PvE chars to build the better PvP char, bother trying to hold the Hall of Heroes against an inexhaustible army of fully-equipped twelve-year-olds who can grab a super build off teh intarweb and stand a chance simply because their build is nearly foolproof?

I like fighting talented players, whether or not I win. I enjoy winning more, but I tend to play support so it's the fight I enjoy. Arming people this way really robs the joy from me. I don't want easy wins. I also don't want to fight the clone armies. Even with the flavor of the month trends in the tombs, that's not absolute. You always have the anti-FotM group builds the variants, the tweaks to the theme. It's always interesting, even if you have one or two crappy experiences on your way to the Hall.

How does unlocking everything enrich that experience? Truly good players are specialists. Most know what they need and want, unlock the skillsets for their favorite classes, and begin the experimentation process. Why should these players have to do all this hard work so a bunch of lackluster clones can rise from the shadows? Doesn't that cheapen *their* experience as well as mine?

I'm choosing not to look at this from the financial perspective...the opinions expressed so far on the subject were pretty dead-on. That said, there's my rant from the side of self-interest.

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Phaedrus · Jun 13, 2005, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManadartheHealer

Apparently, UAU wouldn't work either way, because some people would get screwed. Unlocking through PvP (similar to unlocking through PvE, BUT by playing PvP) would be a solution that all (or at least the reasonable people) could agree on.

I get told I'm a flamebaiter, so I apologize if this seems that way, but...

I'm against implementing an unlock through PvP system because the unlock through PvE system doesn't work yet. I've had to farm my rune collection. While I'm happy with the results, it was wholly unnecessary and I can't expect other players to do that.

I don't see how such a system would be any different than that for the PvE people...the best (EDIT: let's actually say "the most dedicated", not "the best") PvP players unlock everything while those casual or not-so-extraordinary players get screwed. Those players complain, the system gets toned down, the players at the top get upset because of all the work they did...sound familiar?

Honestly? I'd be for such a system if, for instance, you unlocked runes for completing bonuses on missions. If a PvP player will be rewarded for being excellent at his work, so should the PvE player. Right now it's completely random, and let's also face another fact: PvP players can still buy unidentified runes/salvage items...the PvE players are the ones creating them.

It's just as hard for PvE players to unlock runes as it is for PvP players, so I'm not really going to support a system that rewards either without being even-handed about it.

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ManadartheHealer · Jun 13, 2005, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaedrus

Right now it's completely random

Then make it random unlock for runes and items for PvP. Don't make skill unlock random, in PvE you purposefully unlock skills (you choose which ones in PvE, therefore should be able to choose in PvP).

There

Phaedrus · Jun 13, 2005, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManadartheHealer

Then make it random unlock for runes and items for PvP. Don't make skill unlock random, in PvE you purposefully unlock skills (you choose which ones in PvE, therefore should be able to choose in PvP).

There

That assumes you're always carrying a signet of capture in PvE. I'll go along with your plan if PvP players have to stock signets of capture instead of useful skills in order to get a skill they want. I'll also go along with that if the skill they want isn't always on the list. I'll also go along with that if you can figure out a way to keep PvP players from disconnecting once they get the skill they want, or alternately disconnect when they realize the skill they want won't load in the arena they're in.

...unless of course, we want to limit these frustrations to the PvE players who have to cope with all these things, in which case the system isn't even-handed.

So yeah, I can see ways one might be able to make unlockable runes for both types of player (though there is a limit on the number of missions you can run, so PvP players would have an edge unless it were one rune per rank). I can't see ways of fairly unlocking skills though PvP.

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