Curse

The Pope · Jun 13, 2005, 06:43 AM // 06:43

My PvE character is a much better healing monk than my PvP character because I haven't been randomly assigned any healing rune unlocks yet. However, I have bought myself a nice superior healing rune.

Evan The Cursed · Jun 13, 2005, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaanix

If the only way to keep players pveing is to rope them in with another treadmill mechanic, then the only conclusion you can draw about it is this:
the game play sucks - just like every other pve treadmill game.

I believe I have to agree with you on this point. It's like a crutch - gamers should be coming back because the enjoy the gameplay and replayibility, not because of investment. Period.

And on another point Xaanix brought up - a "newbie" can jump into HoH with all skills and items if they could use the UAS, but they wouldn't last more than a few rounds (at best) if they don't have experience or skill, if not both.

But that a player with potentially less experience and zero skill but enough time to unlock the skills/item for their PvP builds can gain an advantage over some with more experience and great skill, but a life and restricted game time, just because the latter has to resort to a template character or a build of equal (or slightly better) efficiency, and potentially gain an unfair win, is... well... not cool.

Sure the likelihood of this matchup occurring (sure it's a team game; so apply "team" where I said "player") is rare, but I have no doubt in my mind that unfair advantages levelled against those without the patience or simply without the time, take place in the PvP world of GW all the time.

Aaaaagh · Jun 13, 2005, 07:49 AM // 07:49

I say no to the unlock options. My reasons: first of all, I enjoy playing GW, I enjoy the PvE aspect (as well as PvP) and I respect that others do not. I have little willpower. If the option to unlock everything was given to me, I would resist, because I know well the consequences. But, I know myself well enough to know that it wouldnt take long for me to hit that button. Then I would PvP, alot, because the PvE 'reward' would be gone for me, there would be no incentive to PvE anymore. As much fun as PvP is in this game, it would get old--fast. Then I would be left with a game I dont enjoy.

I understand the plight of the PvPers, but Im sorry, I care more about me then I do about you. I know that an unlock all option would quickly ruin the game for me, call me weak, Im only human.

Numa Pompilius · Jun 13, 2005, 08:13 AM // 08:13

1) The argument that "with UAS there'd be no point to GW" is silly. There _is_ no point to GW, or to any computer game - it's entertainment, a time sink.
2) The unlocking is a reward for playing PvE. Yes, but is it needed, or is the PvE fun in itself? For me I like the PvE and would play just as much without unlocking anything at all, I'd just make a separate build if I wanted to play PvP.
3) "PvP'ers need to earn their skills." No they don't. PvE'ers need to earn their skills. The PvP should be counterstrike: fantasy, a level playing field is a good thing in player versus player. It's the PvE which must be a slow progression of learning, and guess what, it'd still be. I get the impression many think that unlock all skills would somehow affect the PvE play. It wouldn't, not one single bit. PvE avatars would still need to capture their skills.

As far as I can see the original poster is right on the money, so chalk up another 100% PvE'er vote in support of UAS.

Asplode · Jun 13, 2005, 08:17 AM // 08:17

I somewhat have to disagree with Numa's argument that PvP should be counterstrike: fantasy since the critical difference here is that whereas in GuildWars you can simply carbon-copy another team's build (Granted you probably won't play it as well as they do, but it makes it closer), whereas in CS you can't exactly carbon-copy another clan's aiming and reflexes.

Jackell · Jun 13, 2005, 08:30 AM // 08:30

I personally still hold that a UAS/UAR doesn't exactly cheapen pve, but it does pvp. Someone said earlier "You dont win in pvp if you have no knowledge of the game. You dont win in pvp if you arent skilled. Why do you care if they have this elite skill or that? so what?"

Well, I say make them earn their skills so they have to try it. Who cares if they have the skills but still suck? I do. I don't want to pvp just to walk through 90% of my matches because people didn't learn how to play, I want to fight ever match, and be challenged. A UAS would give a lot of people a reason not to learn how to play the game, and if they never bother to learn, then they will suck, and the pvp matches won't be as good.

Do I think PvPers should have to do the current grind to get the skills and runes and upgrades? HELL NO! IMO, there should a be an unlock through pvp method, but, for the love of god, NO 500+ hours of levelling to get all the skills. A method that would take 1 week max to unlock everything for pvp. That would be the learning curve to make potential horrible players better, without offsetting the balance. The most you could be behind is basically a week, and I'd be willing to not have everything for a week to make my challenge in pvp better.

Numa Pompilius · Jun 13, 2005, 08:51 AM // 08:51

I find myself agreeing with both Asplode and Jackell here.

1) It is true that GW isn't based on eye/hand coordination like counterstrike, and it is true that UAS would lead to smaller differences between the strength of individual players. If all players were approximately as strong, the determining factor would be the cooperation of the team. The question is if that is desirable.

2) On second thought I would have to agree that UAS would lead to more completely unexperienced players, who'd played little or no PvE, going straight to the arenas - and of course getting slaughtered.
And perhaps giving up on the game because "everyone cheats".
Unlock-through-PvP is a good idea, although I'm not sure how it should be implemented.

xaanix · Jun 13, 2005, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asplode

I somewhat have to disagree with Numa's argument that PvP should be counterstrike: fantasy since the critical difference here is that whereas in GuildWars you can simply carbon-copy another team's build (Granted you probably won't play it as well as they do, but it makes it closer), whereas in CS you can't exactly carbon-copy another clan's aiming and reflexes.

I have news for you, this game isnt all about bulids. Sure builds are important, but SKILL means just as much in this game's pvp as it does in CS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackell

Well, I say make them earn their skills so they have to try it. Who cares if they have the skills but still suck? I do. I don't want to pvp just to walk through 90% of my matches because people didn't learn how to play, I want to fight ever match, and be challenged. A UAS would give a lot of people a reason not to learn how to play the game, and if they never bother to learn, then they will suck, and the pvp matches won't be as good.

People go through all the pve missions and STILL dont know how to play. This is because skilled play isn't currently rewarded in the game, time is. So people put in their time, and coast through the game. They dont care about getting better, because there is no need to. A friend of mine told me not 10 minutes ago on AIM that people in his group in hell's precipice didnt know what pulling was. This is pathetic. Bottom line is that PVE is a chore, and excluding thirsty river, it does NOT prepare you for pvp AT ALL. When I see you winning HOH or your guild in the top20 on the ladder jackell, perhaps your pvp 'concerns' might hold some weight, but dont sit there and tell me that pvp would be too easy if UAS was in, and imply that you'll walk through 90% of your pvp matches. You get a big *lol* to that one.

Nad · Jun 13, 2005, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Actually, it's purely financial. Games like this, even without a monthly fee, rely on a concept that the industry refers to as "stickiness". Stickiness is the difficulty a player has leaving the game. Stickiness is increased when a player has some form of investment, either time or money, in the game. If pvpers could UAS/UAR there would be no particular feeling of investment. Right now, accounts hold investment based on what a RP character has unlocked for PvP characters to use. Without that, the game would really just be two seperate games... like Unreal was. A tourney mode, and a SP mode. Linking the two games makes a more dynamic and strategic game.

This doesn't Make any sence to me. I never had to grind exp for my seige mode upgrade in Starcraft to keep me playing it for what...8+ years now?. I never had to spend countless hours killing bots over and over again in CS to unlock my "Kevlar + Helmet" option.

I've spent a totally ridiculous ammount of time playing SC, CS and TFT, and the designers of those games didn't have to use any tricks or bullshit time sinks to keep me hooked. I played because I wanted to be better then the next guy, I enjoyed winning and knowing I won because outplayed them.

I bought this game because, from what I read, I imagined it to be a sword and spells version of CS, with some PvE on the side. It's just a crappy RPG as it is now. I've spent 300+ hours unlocking skills/runes/item upgrades and playing through the dull story. I'm sick of PvE, and i'm sick of PvPing with the only 2 classes I have skills for. Having UAS wouldn't hinder PvEers PvEing, but not having UAS does hinder PvPers PvPing.

I've done my time, so for the love of god implement UAS so I dont have to spend another 600 hours unlockng the other 4 classes skills.

Sekkira · Jun 13, 2005, 09:38 AM // 09:38

I find the whole pvpers 'plight' laughable. The whole concept that they have to "Grind through a crappy PvE to be competative in PvP with regards to skills" is just lazyness in not willing to put in any effort to work for those skills. It also shows that regardless of them saying the game is based on skill, their argument is contradicted by saying that they need everything unlocked to be good.

The attention of that shouldn't be dragged away in saying that the PvE argument contradicts itself because "PvEers want rewards for their effort as the storyline is crap". That bash holds no water. Think of your favourite RPG with a great storyline. Now make everyone max level they can have with all the skills and spells possible from the very start. I wouldn't play it, it wouldn't hold any challange at all. The PvE of Guild Wars is similar to this, obviously not the same as you pretty much hit max level half way through the game and it still remains challenging.

The runes as well are reward for skill. Not as direct as obtaining skills via quests as someone before pointed out, they are random drops in your team, but it still requires skill and teamwork (or skill with your build if you're solo farming) to kill the monsters which eventually drop rares.

The PvE side has a brilliant storyline and a massive explorable area that is challenging from start to finish. The people complaining about having to unlock skills and 'grind' for all this crap are just whiners. I think people need to ask themselves a simple question: "What did you buy the game for? Did you buy it for what it is, or what you wanted it to be?" Personally, I bought it for what it is. The people who want the UAS/R are the ones who bought it for what they wanted it to be. I think those exact same people should shut the hell up and either get on enjoying both the PvP and PvE aspects of the game or gtfo and play/wait for something else.

Numa Pompilius · Jun 13, 2005, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Sekkira: noone is arguing that the PvE should have UAS, only that PvP builds should.
PvE would remain exactly as it is now, with each character starting a lvl 1 without any skills.
The difference would be that if you chose to create a _PvP character_ instead of an _RP character_, you'd have access to all skills.

Sekkira · Jun 13, 2005, 10:11 AM // 10:11

I reiterate my previous statements, I'm starting to sound like a broken record here.

Guild Wars is not a PvP game. It is not Counterstrike. It is not Unreal Tournament. It is not Warcraft 3. Guild Wars is not a PvE game. It is not World of Warcraft. It is not Lineage 2. It is not Everquest 1/2. Guild Wars IS a PvE AND PvP game. It is NOT a PvE OR PvP game.

triorph · Jun 13, 2005, 10:40 AM // 10:40

I find this topic quite amusing. On the one hand you have the people that blame the skills they have because they can't win pvp, and on the other you have the people that haven't done the huge grind for skills and for that reason don't have any reason to complain.

Now I agree about the whole grind issue, once you've already completed the game (missions and all) you shouldn't have to be spending another 300 hours or so just to get the skills you don't have, or the runes, or upgrades. However, don't you think UAS/UAR is a bit extreme? Minimalising the amount of time it would be needed to get all this stuff would be better, I doubt this post would even exist if it was possible to get most of the things you need in 70 hours or so of gameplay.

As for Anet's claim that skill determines victory, who said they weren't talking about your skills for your skill bar? :P, just my odd take on this.

Weezer_Blue · Jun 13, 2005, 11:10 AM // 11:10

From what I have gathered, Guild Wars was never meant to be a balanced PvP game. It was intended to be like a card game where whoever buys the most decks of cards, or, runes the game through the most times, or farms the most, gets the best chance of coming across a superior deck. And from this superior deck, he gets an advantage and that this is what makes both PvE and PvP worth while for everyone. I find it strange that people say "this is not counterstrike, this is an RPG", when in reality, guild wars is a combination of genres meant to appeal to more than just the average grind monkey. I just don't think A.Net should have baited us with false advertisement throught he words on the box and the beta and then switched it up on release. But it doesn't look like this will be solved in the future. So i'm not decided that I will buy the expansions.

Saerden · Jun 13, 2005, 12:02 PM // 12:02

For the last time: farming (repeating a profitable action over and over) is NOT RP. If you say that you have to unlock runes, because else it would not be a RPG, you have no clue what a RPG is. In a RPG you advance your character by overcoming challenges.

Notice that they have banned bots. So the "main" challenge in GW for PvE advancement is finding the time to farm. Or masking your bot.

The fact is, GW is NOT a RPG atm, at least not a good one (How many different armor visuals are there for a warrior? How many different customization options to look unique? Why does the story jump around so much? Where are choices? Why is the only long term advancement option tied to my account("unlock")? Its NOT a APG!)
It could have been a great: CS:fantasy (3rd person) MtG edition for everyone (tm).

100% PvE player (no point in pvp atm, if i win, i may have owned loosers, if i loose, i may have been beaten by loosers who grind. Lack of feedback is bad if you want to start) votes for UAS.

asdar · Jun 13, 2005, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Let PvP have the UAS, UAR. Let the developers focus on more content for PvE'rs.

It doesn't cheapen PvE play, the lack of content does that on it's own.

I'm 95% PvE'r.

Kaht Khan · Jun 13, 2005, 12:15 PM // 12:15

I play both PvE (got one character through to the end and working on a second one) and PvP (because i also like it).

In the whole UAS/I/R arguments i believe i can understand (and given my experience empathize with) the arguments from both sides:
- From the PvP side there is the frustration of being forced to go through the the PvE "grinding" to be able to have some flexibility in their character builds. Even though i play PvE a lot, i can share this feeling - in order to try out more types of PvP characters (beyound simply the premades) i'm having to walk 2 more characters through the whole adventure again (less fun now than the first time around)
- From the PvE side there is the fear of loosing oportunities to feel the sense of accomplishment that comes from achieving an objective (like for example capture a specific elite skill) or the feeling that comes from being rewarded (by finding runes or items) when you go out for 1/2h and clear up a whole area. To me, now that i have reached the end-game and have explored just about the whole map, this has become more important (though Underworld and Fissure of Wow are still providing good PvE fun).

I propose the following solution:
- Allow instant unlocking of MOST but not all skills/runes/items for PvP only characters
- PvE players can capture/unlock all skills/rune/items by means of exploring/questing. The higher quality items, some of the elite skills and maybe also some (new) special major/sup runes without health penalty should only be possible to get via PvE.
- The PvE runes and items should still be aquireable via trading. Maybe (or not) some selling of skills might be interesting here.

This way, the PvP crowd gets the chance of trying new/more-flexible player/team based builds without (each player) needing to go through PvE 3 times for it. Hardcore PvP players that want to have the best and try it all can dedicate time to (via PvE) aquire the ultimate skills/runes/items.

At the same time PvE players still get rewarded. They will still get stuff that cannot be gotten by pressing the magic "Unlock Everything" button. It might even be done in such a way that defeating some extra hard mission/monster gives some unique skill/rune/item that cannot be gotten any other way (but NOT something that provides extraordinary advantage over all other players, more things like longbows with max dmg + x% or some unique but not overly powerfull elite skills)

What say ye?

Syno · Jun 13, 2005, 12:16 PM // 12:16

I enjoy the PvE side of the game, I have not Ascended yet so I rarely PvP except in Ascalon I did alot. I tried a solely PvP character, and I was upset that I had to unlock all the skills for it to be on the list. If the unlock works for PvP characters and not PvE, until post-Ascension, then cool. Or a choice between the two.

A free web-based wargame you can play from anywhere!

mikeydavison · Jun 13, 2005, 12:56 PM // 12:56

I've played PvE almost exclusively thus far, and I just don't find a lot of the arguments from PvEers against some incarnation of UAS all that compelling. I haven't rolled a PvE char yet, but I certainly won't be offened if some "n00b" buys the game today, clicks UAS and has more skills than me. This person is enjoying the game in a manner of their choosing that doesn't affect at all.

Particluarly baffling are notions that PvPers have to work for or otherwise earn skills and runes. Skill and rune unlocking has an obvious place in the main PvE campaign, but can anyone honestly say that this adds anything to the PvP experience? Has the game been made more fun for the PvP only player because of the need to unlock runes and skills? PvPers shouldn't have to work for or earn anything; we all do enough of that in our real jobs and a game like GW should allow us to focus on whatever we find fun, be it PvP or PvE.

The Pope · Jun 13, 2005, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

I find the whole pvpers 'plight' laughable. The whole concept that they have to "Grind through a crappy PvE to be competative in PvP with regards to skills" is just lazyness in not willing to put in any effort to work for those skills.

Why should people work in a game? I've never seen that one explained. Only self righteous gibberish that seems to go quiet every time the question is asked.