Curse

Chev of Hardass · Jun 12, 2005, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

I don't understand why you all say you 'earn' the skills you unlock. Unlocking skills is piss easy, the only challenge is getting enough skill points among your four characters.

I say skills are earned, because part of the RPG Guild Wars, is to unlock skills through quests. You have to decide where to spend your skill points, and what quests are worth your time.

By the contrary, runes/items are not earned because they drop purely at random, reguardless of your personal skill or involvement with the group.

Since I am here, you say skills are easy to aquire. How about a compromise, between the two sides of the gate?

I posted it earlier, UAR.Items, and not UAS. Skills are settable goals. Runes are frusterating nightmares of things that I cannot find.

New Signature:

347 hours 50 minutes on PvE characters playing 90% PvE and no Superior Vigor Unlocked

Mayar third Keeper · Jun 12, 2005, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

"PvPers need to 'earn' their skills and runes!" -Why?

Becaus this is not a damn shooter. It IS GOOD the way it is. Anet please dont change it!!

Wendel · Jun 12, 2005, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shagsbeard

Actually, it's purely financial. Games like this, even without a monthly fee, rely on a concept that the industry refers to as "stickiness". Stickiness is the difficulty a player has leaving the game. Stickiness is increased when a player has some form of investment, either time or money, in the game. If pvpers could UAS/UAR there would be no particular feeling of investment. Right now, accounts hold investment based on what a RP character has unlocked for PvP characters to use. Without that, the game would really just be two seperate games... like Unreal was. A tourney mode, and a SP mode. Linking the two games makes a more dynamic and strategic game.

Now... why not let players choose? Give a UAS/UAR option and let players play there and see what happens. Make it a wholely different server.

Why not? Because it would make the game less enjoyable to divide us all up. Societies thrive on diversity. PvPers interacting with RPers interacting with all sorts of other people.

I completely agree with this statement. This is a concept that applies to many industries (ie. web hosting-- perhaps your current host has some real issues, but because your sites are so well established leaving is almost impossible) and it tried and proven.

As a recovering (so far so good!) three year DAoC junkie I can say it was quite difficult to leave the 3rd time because of how much time and effort I put into developing my account. Sure, I'm not paying a monthly fee for Guild Wars but if I leave then the probability that I will purchase an expansion decreases. Additionally, the longer I play the more likely I will continue to refer other people to buy the game.

Lastly, I love hacking the games I play on my computer to provide myself with some sort of "advanced benefit". Or in other words, I love to cheat

. In fact, I've learned that I love to cheat more then I like to play the game after I've cheated. Especially if it really took some effort to figure out which bytes to modify in a hex editor, or if I had to valiantly hack through the source code to impliment an 'improvement' (/cheer for open source games!). And what'll you know? The more effort it takes me to cheat the more I enjoy cheating. Kind of reinforces the original point under discussion.

(edit: I'm not saying that UAS/UAR is cheating! The parallel is simply that the more time/effort you invest in something the more intrinsic worth it has. You could even bring in relationships as another analogy-- the more you work at a relationship to improve it the more valuable it becomes to you. We all would love a love-at-first-site he/she-is-so-perfect-for-me relationship to knock on our door, but any of you who have had to fight to make a relationship successful knows how important it became because of it.)

Creston · Jun 12, 2005, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

From a thread I made on another forum, this is the only "con" that has been presented by the PvE community of Unlock All Skills and Unlock All Runes. Supposedly, this is the only reason that UAS and UAR is not in Guild Wars at this very moment. That it somehow cheapens your PvE experience.

There are people who feel that this cheapens PvE???
I would be 100% in favor of UAS / UAR / UAI (items) for PvP. Maybe that way, Anet will stop drastically changing the PvE to try to tackle complaints voiced by the PvP community.

The linking between the two was a daring design decision, but one that, imo, in the end turned out to be horrendously flawed. Any change in favor of one now almost always winds up disappointing the other.

Personally, I don't understand why all PvPers don't petition for UAS etc anyways. How else are you EVER going to have a fair fight??

Edit : I'm not sure I understand the "it makes quests useless" complaint? Doesn't a PvE character still have to obtain a skill, even though it's already unlocked? So for your new PvE character, you still have to obtain those skills. If you ONLY play PvE, the unlocking part doesn't mean anything to you anyways. If you do a combination of both, what does it matter whether a quest still unlocks the skill, or whether it is already unlocked and is now given to your PvE character?
I just don't get how this makes quests "only give xp".
Am I missing something?

UAS / UAR gets my vote.

Creston

ReclinerOfRage · Jun 12, 2005, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siran Dunmorgan

Guild Wars is not Counter Strike: Fantasy.

It'd be a better game if it was.

The Pope · Jun 12, 2005, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayar third Keeper

Becaus this is not a damn shooter. It IS GOOD the way it is. Anet please dont change it!!

If you looked at the thread, you would have noted that no one was asking for guns. You can't have a shooter without guns.

Mimu · Jun 13, 2005, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReclinerOfRage

It'd be a better game if it was.

Then the simple answer to that would be..go and buy Counter Strike.

I can see the ranting topics if UAS was implemented...

"Player X has absolutely no knowledge of this game, and is in the hall of heroes using elites!"

If you have to earn the skills and runes, it would stop every average Joe nublington from entering the hall without any experience in the game.

Tuna · Jun 13, 2005, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimu

Then the simple answer to that would be..go and buy Counter Strike.

I can see the ranting topics if UAS was implemented...

"Player X has absolutely no knowledge of this game, and is in the hall of heroes using elites!"

If you have to earn the skills and runes, it would stop every average Joe nublington from entering the hall without any experience in the game.

I have plenty of elites that I have never used, and probably never will. No experience gained there. There is nothing stopping noobs from getting elites the way it is now. If everyone has those elites, there is nothing unfair about it.

Mimu · Jun 13, 2005, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

I have plenty of elites that I have never used, and probably never will. No experience gained there. There is nothing stopping noobs from getting elites the way it is now. If everyone has those elites, there is nothing unfair about it.

But I am assuming that whilst capturing those skills, and (at least) reaching the desert in order to do so the player would at least pick up a few details about how the game works.. (God help them if they don't.

)

ManadartheHealer · Jun 13, 2005, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimu

But I am assuming that whilst capturing those skills, and (at least) reaching the desert in order to do so the player would at least pick up a few details about how the game works.. (God help them if they don't.

)

They could have made the journy from Beacon's Perch to Camp Rankor by having guildies run them. Then they go in, get the elites and whatnot they desire, and go an play PvP, and still have learned nothing...

But if they did go the normal route, they would pick up some knowledge of gameplay

Yabba · Jun 13, 2005, 12:38 AM // 00:38

i would really like to see a change in the system of GW.

i`ve done all missions, all quests and reached every city with 2 chars up to now.

my war/mo has : ~270k xp, 116 skills and 0 skillpoints.
my mes/ele: ~350k xp, 118 skills and 0 skillpoints.

that leaves me with about 60 (!) unlocked skills for the 2 chars.
Would need 60 lvl ups and much bosshunting to get them all.

and my ranger/necro is only lvl 7 atm. have to lvl him up all the way and spent lot of time redoing all again.

and there are still some runes and lots of items upgrades that i didn´t unlock until now.

i would like to see something like:

complete the game once to unlock all skills for pvp (and only pvp. for pve you would have to get them the way it is now)

complete the game a 2nd time to unlock all runes for pvp.

complete the game a 3rd time to unlock all item upgrades for pvp.

it still would be time consuming and need much pve but it wouldn´t require an insane amount of pve like now anymore.
and not that much luck to find the runes/upgrades you want for pvp.

and it would make PVE quite rewarding even for pvp players.
you would know there is lot of pve involved but you could see the light at the end of the tunnel ... instead of being trapped in an abyss like now.

in it`s current state it is very frustrating for every real pvp player.

Lelani · Jun 13, 2005, 01:06 AM // 01:06

In a word: Yes.

You give people the ability to unlock everything at the push of a button and you make the whole building your own character bit totally pointless if all you care about is PvP.

What makes me laugh most is that primary PvP'ers seem to spend more time whining about it than actually playing. If you want to talk about skill then go try your PvPing bit with a non-perfect character. Oh wait, then you'll complain that it isn't "balanced" and "unfair."

In my opinion rather than allowing PvP fans to mix with RP fans they should split it up. Set aside one section of the game for hardcore PvP players and allow them to unlock everything they like on that character, but not mix in arenas with people who want to play through and unlock things in their own time.

xaanix · Jun 13, 2005, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimu

Then the simple answer to that would be..go and buy Counter Strike.

I can see the ranting topics if UAS was implemented...

"Player X has absolutely no knowledge of this game, and is in the hall of heroes using elites!"

If you have to earn the skills and runes, it would stop every average Joe nublington from entering the hall without any experience in the game.

If thats your idea of a rant, um...

I dont know what to say, except i guess "so what?" You dont win in pvp if you have no knowledge of the game. You dont win in pvp if you arent skilled. Why do you care if they have this elite skill or that? so what?

Quote:

But I am assuming that whilst capturing those skills, and (at least) reaching the desert in order to do so the player would at least pick up a few details about how the game works.. (God help them if they don't. )

So in your mind, pve is just one big tutorial to teach people the game. Guess what? I AGREE with you on this. The problem is, many people playing the game right now do NOT need this tutorial, and would like to skip the entire thing. Was completing the war3 campaign a prerequisite of battle.net play? Nope. Same with Starcraft. The campaign is there to teach you the game and tell a story, but there is NO valid reason to make it a prerequisite of pvp. If people want to skip it and go straight to pvp and suck, let them. PLENTY of people come to pvp after beating all the pve and they still suck, so really whats the difference?

If the only way to keep players pveing is to rope them in with another treadmill mechanic, then the only conclusion you can draw about it is this:
the game play sucks - just like every other pve treadmill game.

I see it as a common complaint from pveers that 'if you put in UAS, noone will pve'. Statements like this just confirm that pve gameplay is just a treadmill, and the gameplay on its own is dull and uninteresting. You see tons of players pvping all day for NO reward, but PVE needs to be *LACED* with rewards or else people cant stand it. *why*?? Because pve sucks, and you said so yourselves when you make statements like this.

theclam · Jun 13, 2005, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yabba

complete the game once to unlock all skills for pvp (and only pvp. for pve you would have to get them the way it is now)

complete the game a 2nd time to unlock all runes for pvp.

complete the game a 3rd time to unlock all item upgrades for pvp.

/signed

Winter King · Jun 13, 2005, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

From a thread I made on another forum, this is the only "con" that has been presented by the PvE community of Unlock All Skills and Unlock All Runes. Supposedly, this is the only reason that UAS and UAR is not in Guild Wars at this very moment.

You're trying to infer what the developers' intentions are from posts on an online forum? I think a more solid reason for the lack of UAS would be that the developers felt it would unbalance or otherwise lessen total gameplay experience.

Quote:

In this thread, I would like to delve into the PvEer's psyche and discover what it is that makes them, or some of them, think this is true, and if it is a legitimate reason to deprive so many other players of a perfect PvP game.

The language suggests a poor appeal to emotion here. "Deprive so many others of a perfect game?" A fairer way to phrase this would be "To attempt to understand why others do not want this option implemented." And instead of delving into the psyche of another to discredit their argument, how about you instead development an argument of your own- that's not as offensive as you discovering why they'd want to "Deprive" you of a game.

Quote:

What do I think makes people believe PvE would be cheapened by UAS/UAR? I honestly cannot say, which is why I created this thread.

The answer you provide to your question should invalidate this whole topic. It seems to me that this is another rhetorical snipe at the No UAS camp, as you're making it seem like their reasons have no grounding in logic.

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I think that it is because they recieve a feeling of acomplishment from unlocking one more thing and getting one more advantage over an enemy player - or closing the gap, if they are behind.

I can accept this as a reason.

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But is this fair for a game that says, and quote: "You'll prove your wirth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate. Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat".

This is an interesting point, but one that works both ways. The game does involve a time investment- to be generous, it'd take a serious player a couple of weeks to hit droknar's and beyond. But beyond that initial investment, the hours spent provide dimishing returns. Their is a level cap, and a useable skills cap. After that initial period of play, every player has limitations that cannot be removed by time spent. In my mind, this is where the skills comes into: the strategic element of putting together 8 skills that complement each other and my team. Hours stills plays a purpose- building up a pool, but ultimately it's what you do with that pool, not the pool itself, that will determine victory.

Also, it's propagandic for the box to claim that experience (here meaning time spent playing) has no effect; the players who log the most time (in PVP or PVE) are the ones who are most familiar with game mechanics and class relations. Since skill and time are intrinsically related, any statement that subordinates one at the expense of the other need be viewed as propagand differentiating the game rather than an undeniable statement of the games purpose. Especially when the actual content of the game also contradicts the box statement.

Quote:

If my assumption is correct, which lets hope it isn't, then wouldn't that mean that PvEers are against UAS/UAR because they wish to gain an unfair advantage over an enemy because they play more, therefore they think they earned it?

Once again, your language is promoting rhetoric over solid argument. Also, you have a straw man here, suggesting the intent of your opposition rather than addressing any direct statement of an anti-UASer. If you wished to make a real argument, you would do better laying out your own reasoning. As it stands, all I need say to contradict your point is that I do not wish to keep UAS in to gain an unfair advantage, but rather to maintain a sense of accomplishment in game. Suddenly, your whole post addresses a non-existant argument, because you've put words in the mouth of your opposition.

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To shift the playing field in their favor assuring them victory even though they may not "have what it takes" under balanced circumstances? Why isn't The Fianna on the ladder yet? Are they afraid that unless they resort to such things, they, as well, will be put at a disadvantage?

If your only means of making an argument are ad hominem attacks and miscaricatures of anti-UASer motives, then you're better off quiet.

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Finally, I ask those of you that think in such a horrific manner: Would you actually *leave* Guild Wars if UAS and UAR were implimented? Please explain why.

Are you going to leave if it stays no PVP? It would be much better if you turned this kind of argument on yourself before suggesting they're so extreme as to say "my way or the highway"

And there's something called the burden of proof, where if you wish to make a point you provide the proof. You aren't doing that: you're mocking the opposition and then asking them to explain themselves.

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As I said earlier, suggest any other possible "cons" of UAS/UAR. But before you jump at the chance, I shall throw out any that I think are simply rediculous.

It's arrogance and assclownery to dimiss the arguments of your opposition before they can even make them. If you think UAS should be in the game, state why it should be. Don't make up reasons why it shouldn't only so you can dismiss them.

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Feel free to bring them back up again, and hopefully someone else can make you see the light better than I can.

"See the light"? Rhetoric over argument= waste of bandwidth.

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"PvPers need to 'earn' their skills and runes!" -Why? The only thing a PvPer desires is his rating. Is that not all they must earn? You don't really "earn" anything through fighting mindless drones with horrible AI. You'd think monsters would move out of my Symbols of Wrath. But, nope... They stand right there and take the punishment. Why would this give me a feeling of accomplishment? So why must I, supposedly, earn my rigth to play the game I bought? I shouldn't. "Earning" things is just a stupid way to say "Hey! I played more than you! You haven't earned it yet!".
"PvEers will be put at a disadvantage" -If you're really a PvEer, then you don't play PvP, do you? And if you're a mix of both, why don't you have a slot left for a PvP character? And in any case, you're not put at any disadvantage. You just have to grind before you are competitive... Say... kinda like... Those are all I can think of, at the moment. If any more come to my attention, I'll make a new post or edit this one.

What follows here is a straw man argument at it's finest. Where are you getting your evidence for these claims? Off your other thread? Do you actually have the texts of the points your refuting? Have you considered the reasoning behind why some people might not want UAS in the game? Or is it simpler to generalize the opposition's arguments until they're at their easiest to dismiss?

Your first rebuttal shows a close minded understanding of what "earning" means. To those in favor of getting UAS, earning rank may be the only important thing. To those in favor of leaving it out, earning the runes/skills/weapons is a sign of investment and energy spent in the game- much like earning rank is a sign of investment and energy put into the game.

In both cases there is a reward for the effort spent; PVEer's gain a new skill, PVPer's gain rank. Providing all skills removes the PVE reward by making the rewards for one's efforts attainable by everyone at no effort.

Everything in your first rebuttal after "but nope..." is not exclusive evidence for your case, as it is highly relative opinion. It could be as easily said that skill in the PVP arena is only a sign of hours logged learning game mechanics and nothing else.

Your second rebuttal once again assumes motivation. You'd be so much better off trying to support your own position, rather than create a false one for your opposition and tear it down.

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And unless you have a new argument to present, instead of one that you stole from someone else and are trying to reitterate using the same analogy only changed to fool us, then don't post at all.

It's quite arrogant of you to accuse the anti-PvPer's of poor arguments when your own post is a mostly straw man and rhetoric. And once agin, you're implying negative motives on the part of your opposition. "Trying to fool you?" How about you recognize that they have real reasons and motivations just like you do?

***

This is a long post, and I do not state my own views on the UAS problem within it. But there's a reason for that. Reading these forums, UAS threads do not actually address the problem and work towards compromise and solutions. Most involve a generalization of the opposition, couple with a recycled rebuttal. What emerges are useless and repetative threads that do nothing more than infuriate the opposition. This is one such thread. Reading it, it doesn't seem like this guy thinks someone can be sane and support no UAS.

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No "flames" or reasoning that is not backed up by simple human logic will be tolerated

If this is really the case, then no one should be posting in response to the original poster, as their is very little logic to his post and he verges on flaming in characterizing and demonizing his opposition.

Edit (In response to the post below me)
Darrin: I don't see any reason why you shouldn't post if you have a valid point to make. That you instead choose to say "Must not post" leads me to believe you're only going to flame (you have a nice trend of ommiting content). If the latter's the case you would have done better to have said nothing in the first place.

DarrenJasper · Jun 13, 2005, 05:53 AM // 05:53

i must not post
i must not post
i must not post

Winter King · Jun 13, 2005, 06:13 AM // 06:13

(side note- I separated this post from the previous one in part due to length, but also because the content of these two posts is so different).

I would like to see a skill system implemented in which PVPer's are able to unlock skills and runes battling in the arena. Just as monsters have drops in the wilderness, killed players in the arenas should have some kind of associated drop, be it rune, gold, or acquired skill. Once the match is finished, parties should be able to divide the loot regardless of who won or lost.

This way, there is still some effort in acquiring skills; only the effort is tuned to suit both the PVP and the PVE crowd. A PVE player will gain skills fighting in the wilderness, a guild player will gain skills fighting in the guilds.

If players are interested in "balancing" the advantages gained by hours played, a handicap or underdog system could be implemented; however, given complaints about the unreliability of the latter, I'm skeptical of this.

Skills unlocked could be dependent on what the other party was using, or it could be random and based on player class. The former creates a reactionary sort of system; guild A may thrash guild B, but in doing so guild B still gains some of the skills used by guild A.

This is all theoretical of course, and there are loopholes. But I post this mostly to try and illustrate a situation by which both groups might be satisfied. It still requires time spent, only it makes it so players can spend time doing what they want to do.

I feel that if skills were instantly available it would cheapen the game. This does not stem from competiveness on my part and the urge to gain an edge no one else can, but rather from the opposite. I'm never going to equal the better players in the arena. I don't have the time nor the energy. What I can do is play through the PVE with a good group of guys, unlock some decent skills, and be proud of the one decent war/mo or E/Me I put together. What signifies a good character? The armor he's wearing, the skills he's using, the weapon he's carrying, and the runes he's using.

That's the reward the game provides me with for my time and effort.

If UAS is applied, this removes the game reward for me. Anyone can have the rewards I've worked for instantly. This cheapens the game for me, because any gratification I get from playing now has to be manufactured by me, not the game. Gaining ruins is no longer noteworthy, because anyone can do it effortlessly.

There is no divide between PVE and PVP. I don't intend to play PVE exclusively. I want to play with guilds, I want to play hall of heros. I bought this game because it combined these elements. If UAS is enacted, it will make it so PVP time logged is worthwhile while PVE time logged is not. If I wished to play in an arena, most of my experience playing PVE is not usefull; it's a different context with different enemies. Right now, that time spent still has a purpose: it provides me with a selection of tools I can use to win. But if those tools become available to everyone at no expense, then my time spent is worthless: PVE shows next to no gain that is worthwile in the arena. My time is poorly spent if I ever want to play against other people, because I have nothing to show for it whereas they have hours and hours of practice.

***

I'm also really opposed to how the developers phrased this gains purpose. "Skill, not hours" is BS. Skill is a product of hours spent practicing and learning game mechanics; essentially experiencing the game. This is dependent on the time one spends. A more accurate read of the game might be that their is only a finite # of skills that can be used in a fight (8) and only a finite representation of time logged in the game (lvl cap at 20). Taken together, these two qualities dramatically shift the late game from in-game rewards for hours played (higher levels, more options in battle) to out-game rewards for hours played (one's ability to understand the game).

Draven Mauler · Jun 13, 2005, 06:22 AM // 06:22

My biggest challenge right now is to stay involved in gaming despite myself. I am going to put my 2 cents in this pot and I hope it has some impact. In the original post the author makes one statement about "catching up" which left a lasting impression on me. I have not been to HoH since the last BWE. Every attempt since April has ended in shreds, crashing and burning. I wish I could say I came close, but my losses are stinging and memorably so. Another post spoke to the "Stickiness" of a game. Great post. This game is sticky because of the investment to unlock items and skills. But I digress.

Why do I, and so many like me, keep coming back? I believe it is because we do not play this game, or any other game, to simply win. The devs at Anet and all other mmos are of the same school of thought. The game must be playable and enjoyable even if you only win a GvG battle once a week. /laughing Now in all honesty, if it were easy to win, winning would not be thrilling. If me and my guildees won in HoH we would probably all jump up and down cheering like Jr. High School Cheerleaders. So the mature player is not going to tilt the odds, does not ask for nerfs, or complain about botters and scammers. They play for the enjoyment of interaction and they look forward to their next victory with far more zeal than those who are perpetually at the top of the ladder. A part of us all wants to quit the game forever after losing 10 battles in succession. The mature gamer will resist the urge to quit, bash the opponents, or blame others for their loss.

In the end, the only winners are gracious in defeat and generous in victory. So if I were Anet and read this thread, I would most likely do nothing. They would probably wonder why people are so interested in the subject. They would most likely suggest that we all take the game a little less seriously and have a whole lot more fun.

Spartan2 · Jun 13, 2005, 06:36 AM // 06:36

I will make the point of this post short and sweet. UAS/UAR should not be implemented because by playing through the game and getting a feel for your skills and how your character works in what PvE is all about. You get a feel for what you are doing, what you character build is trying to accomplish by trial and error in PvE and possibly increase its effectiveness by finding new things to make you better. Then you go and test it out in small PvP to see how others will react and counter, and then it is off to the races in Tombs and on to GvG. Everyone having everything equals Bland and repetative; fun for awhile but not for long.

Experience begets Skill. PvE begets PvP

Lovag · Jun 13, 2005, 06:39 AM // 06:39

To all those people that think UAS/UAR would make your PvE character useless news flash they are already useless ok maybe that’s to harsh but they are already crippled.

I have 3 lvl PvE character yet I don’t use any of them in PvP. Why because if I make a PvP character I have access better weapons and equipment. Case in point I might find a rune I want but if I don’t salvage it I cant use it with my PvE char, but I can with my PvP.

While I don’t know if UAS/UAR are the answers I do know the current system is contradictory and flawed in many ways.